We suck, 11 wins, fire everyone

[AZ Native]

7-0 who cares. 10-2 forget about it. Those games don’t count. Let’s fire everyone and start over again. We suck. Fire them all.

 

[Krusher kardinals]

How do you really feel?

 

[GatorAZ]

The reverse exaggeration by some folks on here lately is something to behold.

 

[AZ Native]

The reverse exaggeration by some folks on here lately is something to behold.

I'm serious. We have to move on.

 

[Harry]

Reminds me of Bobo Holloman. Holloman was one of only 4 pitchers to throw a no-hitter in his first start. Throughout the game his opponents hit the ball with ferocious authority. Two defenders were injured making great plays. He won the game 6-0. His manager proclaimed he could win 20 games. You can’t argue with a no hitter’s box score. It does, however, remind us that numbers are always the indicator they seem. In his next start he was knocked out in the first inning. He finished the season 3-7. You’re correct to say you can’t ignore the Cards’ record. Kingsbury will definitely be the coach next year. I’m saying be cautious. There are serious flaws in the coaching scheme. Can they be corrected? Sure! I just warning I’ll be betting the under on whether the Cards win as many next year, though lots can happen between now and then.

 

[Chopper0080]

Reminds me of Bobo Holloman. Holloman was one of only 4 pitchers to throw a no-hitter in his first start. Throughout the game his opponents hit the ball with ferocious authority. Two defenders were injured making great plays. He won the game 6-0. His manager proclaimed he could win 20 games. You can’t argue with a no hitter’s box score. It does, however, remind us that numbers are always the indicator they seem. In his next start he was knocked out in the first inning. He finished the season 3-7. You’re correct to say you can’t ignore the Cards’ record. Kingsbury will definitely be the coach next year. I’m saying be cautious. There are serious flaws in the coaching scheme. Can they be corrected? Sure! I just warning I’ll be betting the under on whether the Cards win as many next year, though lots can happen between now and then.

It comes down to what you think the ceiling is. Is this the best that Kliff has to offer? Is this the best Kyler has to offer? That is really what it boils down to. Personally, I do think you have to see the plateau before you decide to move off either.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It comes down to what you think the ceiling is. Is this the best that Kliff has to offer? Is this the best Kyler has to offer? That is really what it boils down to. Personally, I do think you have to see the plateau before you decide to move off either.

I get what you’re saying but the best decision makers successfully project when the plateau will come and are proactive rather than reactive. Waiting for a plateau means essentially wasting a season (if you’re not moving forward you are likely to be moving backward as better teams will won’t stand pat). And how long do wait until you decide it’s a plateau? Like if we lose Monday we had an 11 win season + one and done playoffs. If that’s replicated next year is that the plateau upon which action should be taken? Or must you “sacrifice” (and I’m saying that a little tongue in cheek recognizing I’m calling 11 wins + playoff game as “sacrificing”) another season before making a change?

 

[ajcardfan]

There is a MAJOR assumption being made with these arguments. That is, by firing KK we will hire a coach that will take us to the next level. I am far from confident that would be the case. It is quite likely it would be a train wreck instead.

 

[slanidrac16]

Coaches coach, players make plays.
1. You can have a great game plan, call all the right plays and make all the right decisions and your long snapper hikes one over your punters head and it cost you the game.
2. Then you can have great players and the game plan sucks. The play call sucks. The wasted time out sucks and you lose the game.
3. Then maybe just maybe the players you have just aren’t quite good enough.

This is the quagmire of this team. It’s a bit of all 3. It’s not all Kliff. It’s not all Kyler. It’s not all Vance Joseph.

We have enough talent to compete when we play flawless football, which quite honestly, is very hard to do in close games.

 

[Chopper0080]

I get what you’re saying but the best decision makers successfully project when the plateau will come and are proactive rather than reactive. Waiting for a plateau means essentially wasting a season (if you’re not moving forward you are likely to be moving backward as better teams will won’t stand pat). And how long do wait until you decide it’s a plateau? Like if we lose Monday we had an 11 win season + one and done playoffs. If that’s replicated next year is that the plateau upon which action should be taken? Or must you “sacrifice” (and I’m saying that a little tongue in cheek recognizing I’m calling 11 wins + playoff game as “sacrificing”) another season before making a change?

Yes, but when you hire/draft raw, you are doing so knowing that you will have to give more time than normal.

I think the transition from worst team in the NFL, to 5 wins, to 8 wins and then 11 wins and a playoff appearance is significant progress. Most teams suck their first time in the playoffs so for me, a loss isn't that significant. Especially when Kyler has failed to win any playoff game since High School.

 

[Resin07]

I am of the mindset of seeing what happens next season. I think next season will be very telling. If we see improvement in play calling, growth in Murray's decision making and play, and overall better play from the team, then I think Kliff gets another year.

Kliff, has adjusted his coaching style every year. He is even putting Murray under center now which he didn't do at all before.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens this next year. Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised.

 

[slanidrac16]

I am of the mindset of seeing what happens next season. I think next season will be very telling. If we see improvement in play calling, growth in Murray's decision making and play, and overall better play from the team, then I think Kliff gets another year.

Kliff, has adjusted his coaching style every year. He is even putting Murray under center now which he didn't do at all before.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens this next year. Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised.

Little sad it took 3 years to put Kyler under center. He also need to roll out from under center instead of relying on his athleticism.
Kyler desperately needs to recognize his secondary receiver BEFORE the snap and get the ball out of his hand in those situations.

 

[Krangodnzr]

There is a MAJOR assumption being made with these arguments. That is, by firing KK we will hire a coach that will take us to the next level. I am far from confident that would be the case. It is quite likely it would be a train wreck instead.

It's the same argument for firing Keim as well.

Keim has built to iterations of winning teams with the Cardinals, first with Arians and now with Kingsbury.

We aren't seeing a team with a lack of talent win with superior coaching. I think we are seeing a mixed bag where the Cardinals at times win with talent, and at times win with coaching.

What I find frustrating about this message board is that you will see the same posters that say fire Keim also say fire Kingsbury. You'd think this team had terrible players and wasn't winning. That isn't the case; the Cardinals just completed one of their best regular seasons ever. They were five games over .500. This is a good football team that has hit a bit of a funk due to injuries and uneven play from their best players.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Little sad it took 3 years to put Kyler under center. He also need to roll out from under center instead of relying on his athleticism.
Kyler desperately needs to recognize his secondary receiver BEFORE the snap and get the ball out of his hand in those situations.

Kyler was under center last year.

And rolling out effectively makes the defense have to defend one side of the field.

What we need is for Kyler to buy into being a complete player. We need him to do the extra film work that will make him understand what defenses are trying to do to him.

 

[cardsfanmd]

It's the same argument for firing Keim as well.

Keim has built to iterations of winning teams with the Cardinals, first with Arians and now with Kingsbury.

We aren't seeing a team with a lack of talent win with superior coaching. I think we are seeing a mixed bag where the Cardinals at times win with talent, and at times win with coaching.

What I find frustrating about this message board is that you will see the same posters that say fire Keim also say fire Kingsbury. You'd think this team had terrible players and wasn't winning. That isn't the case; the Cardinals just completed one of their best regular seasons ever. They were five games over .500. This is a good football team that has hit a bit of a funk due to injuries and uneven play from their best players.

Great post.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes, but when you hire/draft raw, you are doing so knowing that you will have to give more time than normal.

I think the transition from worst team in the NFL, to 5 wins, to 8 wins and then 11 wins and a playoff appearance is significant progress. Most teams suck their first time in the playoffs so for me, a loss isn't that significant. Especially when Kyler has failed to win any playoff game since High School.

I agree there’s been progress. But you didn’t really address any of the question I had about your target of plateau for changes.

Also, it’s weird to focus on playoffs prior to pros when only four teams make it in college.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It's the same argument for firing Keim as well.

Keim has built to iterations of winning teams with the Cardinals, first with Arians and now with Kingsbury.

We aren't seeing a team with a lack of talent win with superior coaching. I think we are seeing a mixed bag where the Cardinals at times win with talent, and at times win with coaching.

What I find frustrating about this message board is that you will see the same posters that say fire Keim also say fire Kingsbury. You'd think this team had terrible players and wasn't winning. That isn't the case; the Cardinals just completed one of their best regular seasons ever. They were five games over .500. This is a good football team that has hit a bit of a funk due to injuries and uneven play from their best players.

I think you just answered your own frustration. If they go into a funk at seasons end for three straight years and it isn’t lack of talent or coaching it has to be due to inconsistency of both which is why it’s not inconsistent to want both keim and kliff canned. If one or the other was consistent this team would be a force to be reckoned with . . . right?

 

[Harry]

There is a MAJOR assumption being made with these arguments. That is, by firing KK we will hire a coach that will take us to the next level. I am far from confident that would be the case. It is quite likely it would be a train wreck instead.

I’m not making that assumption. I’ve seen too many Cardinal coaches. I’m just convinced Kingsbury has taken this team as far as he can. It’s always a gamble but I’m not willing to settle for bridesmaid status.

 

[Proximo]

It's the same argument for firing Keim as well.

Keim has built to iterations of winning teams with the Cardinals, first with Arians and now with Kingsbury.

We aren't seeing a team with a lack of talent win with superior coaching. I think we are seeing a mixed bag where the Cardinals at times win with talent, and at times win with coaching.

What I find frustrating about this message board is that you will see the same posters that say fire Keim also say fire Kingsbury. You'd think this team had terrible players and wasn't winning. That isn't the case; the Cardinals just completed one of their best regular seasons ever. They were five games over .500. This is a good football team that has hit a bit of a funk due to injuries and uneven play from their best players.

This cards team has decent quality starters at most positions, but is weak depth wise because of bad drafting primarily. I don't think criticising Keim for his bad draft history is out of line in the least - it is documented fact.

It seems obvious to me that a lot of our offensive issues in the second half of the season is we don't have anyone that can remotely replace Hopkins.

That said I don't think Kingsbury is a good coach, and ideally should be replaced, but our talent level is a bit too good for that to happen.

 

[ajcardfan]

I’m not making that assumption. I’ve seen too many Cardinal coaches. I’m just convinced Kingsbury has taken this team as far as he can. It’s always a gamble but I’m not willing to settle for bridesmaid status.

Nobody is willing to settle for that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Nobody is willing to settle for that.

I disagree. I think there are many battered fans that would be content to be perennial bridesmaids.

 

[slanidrac16]

Kyler was under center last year.

And rolling out effectively makes the defense have to defend one side of the field.

What we need is for Kyler to buy into being a complete player. We need him to do the extra film work that will make him understand what defenses are trying to do to him.

He’s not under center as much as I think he should and even less last year.
As far as moving him on the snap I think it would slow down the pass rush because they wouldn’t be quite sure where he will be. Not every play but part of the mix.
I think Kyler is a little behind the curve as far as reading defenses. I’m not saying he is terrible, but to often he seems to take the lower pct. choice when the easier choice would produce positive yards.

 

[unseenaz]

Anyone who says “we won 11 games, that’s a successful season” is a bit narrow.

 

[TheCardFan]

I disagree. I think there are many battered fans that would be content to be perennial bridesmaids.

LOL - we all want to win. Some of us are just realists about progress.

Hey - I am a Spurs and baseball Cardinals fan. I know what it's like to win consistently and win championships. I get the difference and I also understand progress/building.

 

[TheCardFan]

I agree there’s been progress. But you didn’t really address any of the question I had about your target of plateau for changes.

The very definition of plateau is not the same as progress. We have progressed all three years in nearly every single way.

I just don't see how someone can fire/start over when we haven't actually plateaued yet.

I personally would like a history like the Steelers, Packers, Patriots, etc. where we are perennial playoff contenders with a chance to win the super bowl every year.

We are dragging ourselves further and further away from one of the WORST franchises in NFL history (and other sports as well). I think we have made great progress with KK and Michael taking over (that is when things changed for the better).