Suns @ Pacers Saturday game thread 1-9-2021

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ayton did well against Turner, who got some nice blocks but was otherwise neutralized. Jae Crowder was a big failure against Sabonis.

That said, Ayton is such a weird player. Can play monster defense but doesn't seem to want to do anything with the ball on offense. Doesn't want to make any actual basketball moves other than a turnaround and one hook per game. I'd like to know just what, if anything, Monty and CP3 are supposedly telling him. No more speculation, Eddie, when you see him, ASK him if he's actually being coached!

This has Mark Bryant's fingerprints all over it. A decent defender, but no knowledge of what to do on offense. Bring in Hakeem Olajuwon for 2 weeks, and we'll see a different Ayton. But until then, I'm not sure much will change.

That’s interesting. I hadn’t considered that his primary big man coach never had much in the way of offensive repertoire himself in his playing days. I know that doesn’t mean he can’t teach it (the old “those that do, do. And those that can’t, teach.”), but there may be something to that. What I’d like to see is some good old fashion fundamental post play. Kevin mchale was always limited athletically against those he played but his footwork was magic in the post. That said, all that wishing is for naught if Ayton (a) never learns how to seal his defender (I’ve never seen a big man worse at that than Ayton); and (b) can’t improve his hands (worst hands since mark west and I dare say he might have worse hands than west).

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What isn’t hard for me to understand is this:

*Ayton was a bad college defender.
*Bad college defenders almost never become elite NBA defenders
*My expectations for his defense have been vastly exceeded. Any reasonable observer would agree.
*He has been a very good player on offense since he came in the league. He still is very good on defense and our shooters benefit greatly from his rim gravity.
*How can anyone say he hasn’t met expectations under this analysis? Maybe he hasn’t met their expectations that he would score 25ppg and play mediocre defense, but here’s the thing, that hypothetical player is worse than DA is right now!

I appreciate all of that. And I know he’s still young and should be developing (I say should be because I think he’s regressing offensively). But you fail to consider what we are actually seeing while actually watching the game. The inability to seal a defender, the fumbled rebounds, passes, moves to the basket, the refusal to go hard to the hole which results in misses of gimmes (detroit first shot) or blocks (last night). These aren’t items that people have to look hard for. These are obvious. And in his third season of big minutes they show a lack of progress offensively. And for this team to be it’s best eventually he’s got to start growing. Eddie sees it and comments on it all the time. Your comments lead me to believe you’re content with his remaining where he is - and that’s my worry about his frame of mind . . . come to think of it, are you Deandre???

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

He’s 22 years old. He’s two years younger than Mikal. If I were to take a guess based on his play and some of his recent statements, as well as my admittedly armchair observations at home watching him, it seems as if he has been hit with a rather bizarre career trajectory:

1. Rookie year, #1 pick, local kid, massive expectations, very little in the way of actual basketball training, and on a complete dumpster fire of a team. He puts up 16 and 10 on very good efficiency, but is AWFUL at defense. Team is AWFUL
2. Second season, presumably hears a lot about how bad his defense was, what a mistake he was as a pick as opposed to Luka, and works hard to become a better defender (this isn’t easy mentally on anyone much less a 21 y/o kid), and comes out absolutely cooking (18/11/4blk just controlling the paint) and dominant against Kings in a blowout win. Team added a good PG finally in RR and has some expectations to fight for a playoff spot. Then he gets hit with 25 game suspension. Completely throws the rudders off. Then he gets to watch as the team plays amazing without him (for a bit), and is still in the chase for playoff spot when he returns. Again, the rudders are off and he is improved at defense but the team kinda waffles until the shutdown.
3. The Bubble. Solid play, defensively particularly, but unspectacular. Yet, the team goes 8-0. Interesting.
4. Year 3. Massive expectations. CP3 in (a demanding cat, no?), Jae coming off Finals’ experience. More guys yelling at him to be there now, no, NOW! No, not there! Rotate! Switch! Dive! DO SOMETHING!! It is all a bit overwhelming for a 22 year old kid that has only really had one season of basketball and even that was on a joke team with a joke roster.

What I mean to say is that he has absolutely an unfinished product. He is A LOT more raw than Luka even though he’s older in life years. I think he is showing signs of polish: he passes well, he defends at key moments against top players without fouling, he hunts the boards at key moments. He is learning what it takes to win. He is fitting into a team with better offensive players than him. He is becoming a winner. I think he has the makings of a championship pedigree and I wouldn’t mistake his inaction for laziness but rather system overload. Let him have some time to catch up with his third PG in three years.

 

[Suns_fan69]

(worst hands since mark west and I dare say he might have worse hands than west).

How quickly we forget Alex 'Stone Hands' Len

 

[Muggz]

I'm fine with Ayton as a defender i know he's working hard to improve that aspect of his game.

I don't like how he's standing under the basket at 7ft tall and literally hands the ball to a 6ft tall CP3. WTF is that. Sure if you're being covered by all means kick the ball out to a shooter. But if its ONLY you and Paul under the basket BREAK THE EFING RIM!

We are a good team not an elite team until we get a player that can draw teams into the paint for those kick outs. That's how the Clippers beat us the took away the threes because they knew we wouldn't be going to the rim. The few times we did it went well. This is why i wanted an elite PF in the offseason can Jalen be that guy anytime soon? I hope so.

The Suns are kinda a one trick pony atm with a monster in the paint we will be an elite playoffs contender.

 

[GatorAZ]

Ayton has been disappointing offensively because he was expected to be a generational scoring big man. He’s surpassed expectations defensively because nobody expected him to be a plus on that side of the ball. He can’t handle what is expected of him. On defense he just has to react to what he sees where offensively he needs to be the one instigating.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Ayton has been disappointing offensively because he was expected to be a generational scoring big man. He’s surpassed expectations defensively because nobody expected him to be a plus on that side of the ball. He can’t handle what is expected of him. On defense he just has to react to what he sees where offensively he needs to be the one instigating.

Oh boy, you couldn’t be more wrong. Defense is much much much more sophisticated than offense.

 

[GatorAZ]

Oh boy, you couldn’t be more wrong. Defense is much much much more sophisticated than offense.

He freezes when he gets the ball and ends up attempting the same shot. His brain shuts off whereas on D everything is fluid and reacting to what’s in front of him. There’s some things you got to diagnose and anticipate but it’s largely effort and physicality.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Oh boy, you couldn’t be more wrong. Defense is much much much more sophisticated than offense.

Yep Ayton is the defensive anchor and has to be the most vocal player on defense. It simply doesn’t work without his back there calling things out and then making the right reads on what the offense is trying to do.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

“Reacting” on defense is only as good as the muscle memory and inculcated BBIQ of those reactions. He also just “reacted” as a rookie when he was worse than Amare. Now he’s about as good at defense as Amare ever was at offense. Oh and he’s better at offense (by a lot) than Amare ever was at defense.

Yes, I realize what I just said.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Also, “physicality” is another term that is vague unless described. One can be physical and foul out in 3 minutes. Physicality in and of itself is worthless/a negative.

 

[Ronin]

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[Ronin]

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[Ronin]

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[GatorAZ]

Also, “physicality” is another term that is vague unless described. One can be physical and foul out in 3 minutes. Physicality in and of itself is worthless/a negative.

He holds his ground defensively and boxes out pretty well. As physically as Amare was offensively he would get bullied on defense and the boards. You can be physically to the point of detriment, yeah.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Ayton is a top5 rebounder in the league at 22. He’s very (effectively) physical.

 

[mjb21aztd]

Ayton is a top5 rebounder in the league at 22. He’s very (effectively) physical.

Least he does that well and can most nights hopefully get 10 pts but for a num 1 pick just expected more of killer instinct

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Guys, after Jokic, the best center in the league is TAKING five shots per game.

It’s a unique position. It’s kinda like an elite LT in football. You almost always need one to win and you can’t look at box score stats to measure value; you have to look at team effects.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

Least he does that well and can most nights hopefully get 10 pts but for a num 1 pick just expected more of killer instinct

Walton #1 pick and Russell #2 pick had killer instincts: doesn’t mean they had to score to control the game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Ayton is a top5 rebounder in the league at 22. He’s very (effectively) physical.

on D. He’s a total wuss on offense.

 

[WhyAlwaysMe]

on D. He’s a total wuss on offense.

I feel like a certain contingent of fans would prefer him to aimlessly barrel into defenders like their archetypal TOUGH GUY from the 80s and 90s when their child like impressions of right and wrong were formed.

I prefer smart over stupid.

 

[GatorAZ]

on D. He’s a total wuss on offense.

LaMarcus Aldridge vibes in the sense he’s getting further away from the cup. He’s averaging less than 2 made FT’s/game for his career.

 

[Hoop Head]

Guys, after Jokic, the best center in the league is TAKING five shots per game.

It’s a unique position. It’s kinda like an elite LT in football. You almost always need one to win and you can’t look at box score stats to measure value; you have to look at team effects.

Embiid is putting up MVP like numbers on more than 5 shots a game. Gobert is averaging 9.1 attempts. Im not sure who you are referring to but the top 15 scoring c's all average more than 5 fg attempts.

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[Finito]

I feel like a certain contingent of fans would prefer him to aimlessly barrel into defenders like their archetypal TOUGH GUY from the 80s and 90s when their child like impressions of right and wrong were formed.

I prefer smart over stupid.

no he’s butter soft for any era. I fully expect him to get the ball knocked out of his hands in traffic

 

[elindholm]

I feel like a certain contingent of fans would prefer him to aimlessly barrel into defenders like their archetypal TOUGH GUY from the 80s and 90s when their child like impressions of right and wrong were formed.

I prefer smart over stupid.

When you're right at the basket and seven feet tall, dunking instead of babying out with a soft layup is smart.