MadCards Training Camp Observations Friday 7/26

[Solar7]

So Solar, we’re you this excited last year with Rosen? Did you hear ANY glowing reports about Rosen during camp? Throughout the season can you say you were excited about more than 10 plays by Rosen? Just what did Rosen do to instill any confidence to convince anyone he was destined for greatness or even mediocrity? And finally you and others say if Murray doesn’t work out how it will set the franchise back? Where would be next year if we kept Rosen and he morphed into Blake Bortles?

I was more excited about Rosen at this time of the year than I was about Murray, yes.

I heard plenty of glowing reports about Rosen's accuracy and otherwise in camp. Here's one: https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...rdinals-training-camp-sam-bradford/870662002/

However, I accepted that what the plan was supposed to be, and why players weren't spending every second slobbering over Josh, was that their starting QB was going to be Sam Bradford, for better or worse. As I've said multiple times in other threads, as a player, you don't start creating a QB controversy before the season even begins, when there's a veteran guy you know is most likely going to be the starter. It does you no good - everyone knows the young kid is the future and will eventually push the older guy out, but you don't start shouting it to the media.

No, Rosen didn't have me thrilled. There were a few true dimes that he threw, but the entire freaking team was hot garbage, and never ever let the kid get comfortable. He toughed out getting hit time and time again, and didn't complain one bit.

Rosen didn't prove a lot for greatness or mediocrity, but that doesn't mean you say "**** it" and just throw a dart at anyone else for the sake of it.

If Murray doesn't work out, it will set the franchise back in that we didn't get rid of Steve Keim when we should have, and instead let him sign a losing college coach and a historically short QB with one year of experience, and now if everything sucks, not only will we not be able to draft Tua, we'll need to find some GM who is wiling to come in and manage the team without his choice of head coach or QB of the future.

If Rosen was Blake Bortles this year, THEN we pull the trigger on a new QB and move on.

To K9's point, I'd rather have the cap space and other players we would have been able to acquire. Right now we have nothing but a hope and a prayer, and all of the pressure is on Kyler Murray, which is unfair to the kid.

 

[Solar7]

You can talk all you want about the picks we gave up but you can come to conclusion that any picks we gave up would have turned into all pros, starters or even a quality backup.

I'd rather have 4 chances for one or two of them to become great players, or players that complement each other as a whole, than one shot in the dark at a historically uncharacteristic player to take everything over in the ultimate team sport.

This isn't basketball - if we were talking the Suns giving up a bunch of assets for the chance to draft Zion Williamson, I might feel different.

 

[BigRedRage]

Rosen literally showed nothing last year.

As been covered on this board ad nauseam, Rosen was amongst the worst rookie starting QBs of the modern era. Pretty much every good QB showed SOMETHING their rookie year.

You see how much backlash there has been moving on from Rosen? Bold moves brings criticism. Like I have stated a bunch of times, I started out anti-Murray, but my investigation on who he was as a person and a player is what changed my mind.

Josh Rosen cares about cigarette butts on beaches while Kyler Murray cares about winning football games. One of them struggled to win at UCLA with top 25 recruiting classes, while the other has lost 3 games out of over 100 in his life.

The fact that people hate on Rosen because one of his outside of work hobbies is being an environmentalist is odd to me. Every player has outside of football interests.

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[BigRedRage]

Welp, time to retire this thread. At least the beginning was good.

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[Solar7]

Welp, time to retire this thread. At least the beginning was good.

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Trying not to take the bait and derail anything... I'm definitely not going to talk about Kyler in the Training Camp thread, but when someone asks "is anyone still preferring Rosen," well, I have to answer.

That's the kind of thing I'll ignore in the other thread though.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Still, we lost the #15, a 3, and a 5 for a WR from UMass.

And we just cut a first rounder but it was the right move.

Sure moving on from Rosen after one year wasn’t ideal. However worrying about old draft capital is a fools errand. This Cardinals team is what it is right now. There is no going back and changing the past. This is the Cardinals team we have for 2019.

Put the past behind you and enjoy the present would be my advice.

 

[BurqueCardFan]

Trying not to take the bait and derail anything... I'm definitely not going to talk about Kyler in the Training Camp thread, but when someone asks "is anyone still preferring Rosen," well, I have to answer.

That's the kind of thing I'll ignore in the other thread though.

You can continue to speak your opinion on any thread. Just because you don’t have on rose colored glasses like everyone else about the whole Kingsbury/Kyler additions doesn’t mean you can’t voice your thoughts. We’ll see how it goes. I hope it works but realistically the odds are against these moves working out.

 

[BigRedRage]

Trying not to take the bait and derail anything... I'm definitely not going to talk about Kyler in the Training Camp thread, but when someone asks "is anyone still preferring Rosen," well, I have to answer.

That's the kind of thing I'll ignore in the other thread though.

Yeah. It's over. Kyler looks good. No matter what happens the past won't change so I've forgotten about rosen. It is what it is. He's not coming back.

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[Solar7]

And we just cut a first rounder but it was the right move.

Sure moving on from Rosen after one year wasn’t ideal. However worrying about old draft capital is a fools errand. This Cardinals team is what it is right now. There is no going back and changing the past. This is the Cardinals team we have for 2019.

Put the past behind you and enjoy the present would be my advice.

It's not just the old draft capital. It's the poor decision we've made in keeping Keim. It's the fact we're in a really uncomfortable situation if things don't work out. It's the bare cupboard in young, home-grown talent on this roster.

Looking forward scares me more than looking back.

 

[Solar7]

Yeah. It's over. Kyler looks good. No matter what happens the past won't change so I've forgotten about rosen. It is what it is. He's not coming back.

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Yeah, and I'm hoping Kyler continues to look good in camp, and looks good in games. I don't really want to talk about Rosen either, but the question was asked, and the conversation developed.

There's nothing I can personally do to change what this team has done or is going to do, besides banter about it here, or vote with my wallet.

 

[kerouac9]

I kind of believe that Rosen would not out perform Murray in this offense.
1. Murray already knows the offense.
2. Murray is SO much faster, quicker release, and accuracy
3. His ability to throw on the run, his threat to run and ability to extend plays.

Hope for nothing but the best for Rosen. But I think It appears that the Cardinals made the right move.

I’m certain that Murray would outperform Rosen in this offense; it’s an open question of how big a gap it would be and whether that gap could’ve been covered in the near term by a better defense and adding higher-cap players to the OL.

I think Rosen can be above average in most NFL offenses. If you need the most unique prospect in NFL history to execute this offense, there’s something fundamentally wrong with the scheme.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The fact that people hate on Rosen because one of his outside of work hobbies is being an environmentalist is odd to me. Every player has outside of football interests.

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I was kidding, but the rumblings about Rosen not being focused on football have some merit.

 

[Chopper0080]

This is such a funny discussion. There are three scenarios that I see.

1. Murray works and Rosen works which is means we wasted a bunch of cash and draft capital.

2. Murray works and Rosen doesn't which means another wasted 1st, but overall getting a QB covers things up. Bad process but good result scenario.

3. Neither works and Keim is fired. Kingsbury also probably fails, and Cardinals continue to be a dumpster fire.

Funny scenario.

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[Krangodnzr]

This is such a funny discussion. There are three scenarios that I see.

1. Murray works and Rosen works which is means we wasted a bunch of cash and draft capital.

2. Murray works and Rosen doesn't which means another wasted 1st, but overall getting a QB covers things up. Bad process but good result scenario.

3. Neither works and Keim is fired. Kingsbury also probably fails, and Cardinals continue to be a dumpster fire.

Funny scenario.

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The total FML scenario is that Rosen works and Murray doesnt. That would suck.

 

[Garthshort]

Revenge of the Birds is saying that Murray's floor is probably higher than Rosen's ceiling.

 

[nidan]

Just wondering if anyone is still preferring Rosen over Murray. Not being sarcastic. Just really wondering.

Seems like a lot of people are getting on the bandwagon. Of course, it helps when your rookie QB knows the offense better than anyone else on the team. It puts him in the leadership role immediately.

I'm not sure anybody thought Rosen was better, the questions was

Was Rosen + pick better ... back then I thought so, having watched KM throw I am no longer sure of that

 

[Solar7]

Revenge of the Birds is saying that Murray's floor is probably higher than Rosen's ceiling.

Oh, well if Revenge of the Birds and "Blake Allen Murf," whoever that is, say it... must be true.

 

[JeffGollin]

Revenge of the Birds is saying that Murray's floor is probably higher than Rosen's ceiling.

But who has the safer and easier to access set of stairs leading to the attic?

 

[slanidrac16]

I'd rather have 4 chances for one or two of them to become great players, or players that complement each other as a whole, than one shot in the dark at a historically uncharacteristic player to take everything over in the ultimate team sport.

This isn't basketball - if we were talking the Suns giving up a bunch of assets for the chance to draft Zion Williamson, I might feel different.

We all know hind sight is 20/20. Every year we look back and question why did we do that? We should have drafted that guy. Why did we let that player walk away? If we could look into the future and know when we are drafting and just who will be available when we are on the clock it would be easy.

If we knew last year that we were going to have the opportunity to draft a dynamic player like Murray you can bet we wouldn’t have traded picks and taken Rosen. But we didn’t know that. Taking Rosen WAS the right thing to do last year. But we were in the humbling position to have the first pick in the draft.

The worse thing any organization can do is sit on a mistake. To not look in the mirror and admit we should of zigged instead of zagged. How would we all feel next year if Rosen turned into at best Blake bortles? Another year wasted and we would be blowing up State Farm stadium if Murray explodes on to the scene. It’s s bold move with a high reward to upgrade the most important position in football. If Murray fails I can say with confidence Rosen would have failed too. Saying the team by adding one dynamic defensive player this year was not going to turn Rosen into an all pro qb.

Come on Solar. Watch the tv. Read the articles. It’s not just kool-aid drinkers singing praise. Nobody is predicting super bowl this year. But Murray has turned more heads in 4 practices than Rosen did in an entire year. If the reports were coming out of camp that he looked like crap I could understand a bit of pessimism.

I really don’t think drafting an offensive lineman this year would have put Rosen over the top. In closing this diatribe we really can’t expect a miracle in just one year. With the mistakes made last year like Bradford and now we can say giving up picks for Rosen to go along with salary cap problems it is going to take more than one year.

 

[kerouac9]

If Murray fails I can say with confidence Rosen would have failed too.

How can you possibly say this with confidence? Everyone pointing to media reports is having serious amnesia and should look at the threads from last season saying David Johnson was an offensive player of the year sleeper and Wilks could lead the Cards to the playoffs.

 

[LoyaltyisaCurse]

here is a simple diagram of a Mesh play for those of you who are wondering. It's basically when the two inside WRs cross or "Mesh":

You must be registered for see images attach

Am I the only one who sees this?:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[schutd]

This is such a funny discussion. There are three scenarios that I see.

1. Murray works and Rosen works which is means we wasted a bunch of cash and draft capital.

2. Murray works and Rosen doesn't which means another wasted 1st, but overall getting a QB covers things up. Bad process but good result scenario.

3. Neither works and Keim is fired. Kingsbury also probably fails, and Cardinals continue to be a dumpster fire.

Funny scenario.

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Or,

Murray works, you choose not to waste one iota of energy worrying about what happened to get to that point, and just enjoy the fact that we FINALLY have an answer at QB and keep building the rest of the roster. I wish that was an option for most of y'all. But the way this is shaping up, fans seem to LOVE playing the what if game and speculating what could have been, what might be, blah blah blah, instead of just watching an (hopefully) enjoying what IS happening. I guess we'll see.

 

[slanidrac16]

How can you possibly say this with confidence? Everyone pointing to media reports is having serious amnesia and should look at the threads from last season saying David Johnson was an offensive player of the year sleeper and Wilks could lead the Cards to the playoffs.

I’m talking about running this offense. This style of offense. Rosen simply doesn't have the physical capabilities that Murray has. Btw, in the middle of August last year I felt we were doomed. My opinion today is not because I’m a mindless kool-aid drinker.

 

[Chopper0080]

Or,

Murray works, you choose not to waste one iota of energy worrying about what happened to get to that point, and just enjoy the fact that we FINALLY have an answer at QB and keep building the rest of the roster. I wish that was an option for most of y'all. But the way this is shaping up, fans seem to LOVE playing the what if game and speculating what could have been, what might be, blah blah blah, instead of just watching an (hopefully) enjoying what IS happening. I guess we'll see.

This is like the person who became homeless playing the lottery but then wins and is claiming that it was all a solid plan. Eventually that dude will put himself back on the street because his process of managing money is bad.

This is why so many lottery winners go broke. Luck does not equal smart. Luck does not translate to sustainable success.

 

[PACardsFan]

How can you possibly say this with confidence? Everyone pointing to media reports is having serious amnesia and should look at the threads from last season saying David Johnson was an offensive player of the year sleeper and Wilks could lead the Cards to the playoffs.

NO ONE could have envisioned just how pathetic this team was coached last year. With Wilks, we were told that we would be a smash mouth team on both sides of the ball. With that being said, it only seemed inevitable that David Johnson would have benefited from such an approach. Unfortunately, we found out that Wilks was a joke & that with or without injuries, we were a train wreck. We also found out that Rosen was a far cry from what we expected. Even with a clean pocket, he was below average.