10 thoughts - training camp

dreamcastrocks

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What pass rushers have altered a franchise? Rams had to trade for Stafford even with Donald on the roster.

JJ Watt - didn't alter a franchise.

Myles Garrett - nope.

Chandler Jones - nope.

Von Miller - needed Manning.

Clowney...no. Chase thomas...no.
Pass rushers are the 2nd most important position on a football team. Riddle me this, how many teams has won the SB without a legit pass rush?

Is a pass rusher good enough/important to win multiple games for you on their own, typically no. Can you win without having elite pass rushers? No.

I know you know all of this too.
 

oaken1

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Pass rushers are the 2nd most important position on a football team. Riddle me this, how many teams has won the SB without a legit pass rush?

Is a pass rusher good enough/important to win multiple games for you on their own, typically no. Can you win without having elite pass rushers? No.

I know you know all of this too.
I tend to disagree.. you can win without an elite pass rusher as long as you have several 8 sack guys...or a couple 10 sack guys.
 

kerouac9

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Chiefs - Chris Jones, even as an interior one.
Bucs - Shaq Barrett
Bengals - Trey Hendrickson

Chris Jones was drafted 37th overall.
Shaq Barrett was an undrafted free agent and had 14 sacks in his career when he was signed by the Bucs
Trey Hendrickson was drafted 103rd overall and signed as a free agent by the Bengals following a 4-11-1 season.

Are these examples that support your point?
 

dreamcastrocks

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Chris Jones was drafted 37th overall.
Shaq Barrett was an undrafted free agent and had 14 sacks in his career when he was signed by the Bucs
Trey Hendrickson was drafted 103rd overall and signed as a free agent by the Bengals following a 4-11-1 season.

Are these examples that support your point?
I answered the direct question that you asked.
 

HairZach

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Do you have examples that support your point? Elite pass rushers drafted very high for winning teams?
I mean if included super bowl losers in the Bengals we can say Nick Bosa for the 49ers.
 

Chopper0080

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Because by the time your team is competitive, that player may not be the same player anymore. They may be injured or whatever.

Okay?

Why do I bother sometimes? You 100% knew what I meant by that analogy.
1 - The team being competitive in the future is not a given. There is a win now focus in the NFL that makes it very difficult to punt a year. On top of that, any year can be sabotaged by injuries. NFL players acclimate to the league quickly, and 3 or 4 years of a mid range salary is not detrimental to a franchise.

2 - My point is that losing can happen even when a team is trying to win. No reason to stack the deck to make it more difficult.
 

Chopper0080

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Do you have examples that support your point? Elite pass rushers drafted very high for winning teams?
This is kinda my point. QBs are pretty much the biggest difference maker in that NFL that is worth drafting in the top 10 for (either trading up or losing). The rest of it is building up an extremely deep roster that supports the QB and can make defensive stops in key situations.

Unless you are trying to tank for a top QB, there is no evidence that punting a year in FA talent acquisition (top or mid level) to get a top pick will somehow result in jumpstarting your franchise. JJ Watt wasn't a top 10 pick. Aaron Donald wasn't a top 10 pick. Chris Jones wasn't a top 10 pick. The Cardinals could have easily added some mid level FAs to support Kyler and field a better defense, and still had a top 10 pick to add more young talent. That was a viable option that has a better history of success.

Add as much talent at key spots as you can and find a QB who is a difference maker (trade, late rounds, whatever). That is how you win in the NFL.
 

Chopper0080

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Bosa had 9 sacks, 16 TFL, 1 FF and 1 INT as a rookie. Seems like a force to me.
What he’s built himself into now is an MVP candidate.
Yeah but apparently on this board Shanahan is overrated despite the 49ers being an outlier in success with marginal QBs.
 

Goldfield

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What would have been wrong with spending moderately in FA this year and next year instead of pinning hopes on a big FA spending spree in one year?

Also, I've yet to hear a good explanation for how a rebuild progresses by getting worse in talent year to year.
I agree I don’t understand the approach they used other than I think they are keeping their options open with regards to Kyler Murray. I feel the rolling of cap space is more about being able to move on from his contract if that’s what’s best for the team.
 

Cheesebeef

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I agree I don’t understand the approach they used other than I think they are keeping their options open with regards to Kyler Murray. I feel the rolling of cap space is more about being able to move on from his contract if that’s what’s best for the team.
That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t thought of. Definitely wouldn’t give Keim benefit of the doubt with that kind of forethought, but maybe Monti is thinking the same thing.
 

dreamcastrocks

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I agree I don’t understand the approach they used other than I think they are keeping their options open with regards to Kyler Murray. I feel the rolling of cap space is more about being able to move on from his contract if that’s what’s best for the team.

That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t thought of. Definitely wouldn’t give Keim benefit of the doubt with that kind of forethought, but maybe Monti is thinking the same thing.
It's all about the flexibility I have mentioned as a reason to not spend this year on major free agents.

Kyler does great and we are trending upwards. You decide that he is your franchise QB going forward. Spend the rollover money in free agency.
Kyler plays like trash and we draft Caleb/Maye and Kyler starts a few games and then becomes the backup.
They can hold onto him for one year and cut him, and eat the 35M dead money in two years.

I think it is less likely that he gets cut next year and we eat 81M in dead cap, vs trading him/making him sit out a year and cutting him and having 35M in dead cap.
 

Cbus cardsfan

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Do you have examples that support your point? Elite pass rushers drafted very high for winning teams?
Pass rushers are very important. Myles Garret is not going to win you games when you have Baker Mayfield or Jacoby Brisset under center.

But a Von Miller on team with Stafford and Donald is huge. Or a Strachan with Eli.
The Giants won that SB because of the pressure they put on Brady. Same with TB over Mahomes.

Just because guys weren’t drafted high doesn’t discount what QB pressure does for a team.

Obviously a QB is more important but not many teams are any good that can’t pressure the QB. Didn’t Philly lead the league in sacks last year?

Maybe I’m missing the point on this thread.
 
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