Suns @ Pacers 1-15-18

[hcsilla]

I'm wondering what Warren's trade value is.

DET or NOH might trade a top4 protected 2019 1st rounder for him, maybe they would even add some more assets, maybe not even the pick.

 

[hcsilla]

There are 2 names to blame tonight...

#1. T.J.Warren- Team high -38 +/-... 15 shots, passed one time for an assist, and less than 50% shooting... You CAN'T have that guy be your #3 if you want to legitimately compete in the WC.

Bottom line, TJ does not fit this currently constructed team... he is a minus on defense and while he has improved his 3 point shooting this year, his overall efficacy is bringing the suns down due to his complete lack of court vision and willingness to play team basketball...

It's frustrating and in the long run, TJ just doesn't fit

That's too harsh.

This season Warren improved heavily his 3P-shooting and significantly his FT% and AST/TO ratio. Defensive real plus-minus stats say that he improved his defense as well and eye-test supports this. He is still a minus defender but lack of overall team defense contributes as well. His scoring efficiency is above league average and now he spreads the floor.

In other words I honestly don't know what more improvement could have expected from Warren unless signing him to an extension was a colossal mistake.

I'm not saying trading him for a reasonable return is out of question but blaming mostly him for Suns' struggles and expecting miracles from replacing him with someone else seems a serious misjudgment to me.

 

[taz02]

How long is it going to take Igor to realize that Oubre needs to replace Warren in the starting line-up?

Adjustments are way too slow.

If nothing else we have learned that we can't win with three players on the floor that do not play defense. It has been obvious for a while that Oubre or even Homes needs to replace TJ in the starting unit.

That seemed like the worst game of the season. Watching our starting 5 in that game was brutal. Like a boxing match where you are hoping the ref will step in and stop your guy from getting his face bashed in while the trainer is taking a nap in the corner..........

 

[Mainstreet]

DET or NOH might trade a top4 protected 2019 1st rounder for him, maybe they would even add some more assets, maybe not even the pick.

I'd prefer the Suns use Warren in a trade for a starting point guard if one is to be had.

There is nothing wrong with Warren other than the way the Suns use him. He would probably be best coming off the bench bringing instant offense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I literally roll my eyes every time I read the nonsense about playing some point leading to Bookers injuries...

Ditto. It’s basketball. They’re playing basketball. It’s not like he’s a guard having to guard centers in the post and getting beat up. He’s a guard playing normal minutes. Is he being asked to do things outside his primary, or best, skill set? Sure. But this “he has to play two positions” narrative is just silly. He’s not guard two guys. He’s not being guarded by two guys other than double teams (which is routine for the top player on most teams). He’s not playing double minutes. He’s just a combination of injury-prone and has bad luck with injuries.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'd prefer the Suns use Warren in a trade for a starting point guard if one is to be had.

There is nothing wrong with Warren other than the way the Suns use him. He would probably be best coming off the bench bringing instant offense.

I think there's a lot wrong with Warren. Not that he couldn't help a team but I think he's mentally soft and prone to disappearing the moment things go bad for him. He's quiet out there most of the time until it builds up and he goes ballistic on the refs, and don't think every ref in the league hasn't noticed.

He gives us virtually nothing but scoring yet he can be shut down by a stay at home mediocre defender. He gets a lot of his points by lulling the defense to sleep with his inactivity often allowing his defender to double off of him. Once he makes a few baskets, the defender again stays home usually leading to another disappearance by Warren.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think there's a lot wrong with Warren. Not that he couldn't help a team but I think he's mentally soft and prone to disappearing the moment things go bad for him. He's quiet out there most of the time until it builds up and he goes ballistic on the refs, and don't think every ref in the league hasn't noticed.

He gives us virtually nothing but scoring yet he can be shut down by a stay at home mediocre defender. He gets a lot of his points by lulling the defense to sleep with his inactivity often allowing his defender to double off of him. Once he makes a few baskets, the defender again stays home usually leading to another disappearance by Warren.

yup. the dude's a SF version of Armon Gilliam. Pretty stats that ultimately do next to nothing as far as helping a team win.

 

[1tinsoldier]

i agree with much of the criticism of TJ, but damn he can finish like nobody else and now as a 3pt threat he definitely is an asset. it's just that Booker and Ayton's weaknesses on defense and offensive strengths make him a negative factor with them in our starting line-up.

 

[FB94]

Listened to 98.7 this morning and Doug was ranting about the lack of passion from Igor in light of the free throw discrepancy in recent games. I usually think Doug is a pompous ass, but I do agree with him on this issue. After the opponent shoots 20 something free throws before halftime and you shoot basically none, it’s time to rip some referee butt, right or wrong. Stick up for your players coach before they tune you out, which maybe happening already

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Well, I shouldn't have watched this one. Ugly game.

You can get away with playing a bad game at one end, but when it is a bad game on both ends the results are horrifying.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Listened to 98.7 this morning and Doug was ranting about the lack of passion from Igor in light of the free throw discrepancy in recent games. I usually think Doug is a pompous ass, but I do agree with him on this issue. After the opponent shoots 20 something free throws before halftime and you shoot basically none, it’s time to rip some referee butt, right or wrong. Stick up for your players coach before they tune you out, which maybe happening already

I don't believe the coach is losing the team at this point. I think we are just seeing what happens with a ton of young guys on the roster and that is inconsistent effort. They just came off a 3 game stretch of looking quite good and playing with high energy and now had one stinker after that. Their effort level is simply up and down at this point and I wouldn't be surprised if they play extremely hard for the next 4-5 games straight.

 

[1tinsoldier]

Listened to 98.7 this morning and Doug was ranting about the lack of passion from Igor in light of the free throw discrepancy in recent games. I usually think Doug is a pompous ass, but I do agree with him on this issue. After the opponent shoots 20 something free throws before halftime and you shoot basically none, it’s time to rip some referee butt, right or wrong. Stick up for your players coach before they tune you out, which maybe happening already

yes. it looks like the refs are too eager to apply the new hands-off rules to the youngest team and one of the worst teams in the league. the refs need some push-back from someone. you don't even have to push it to T territory. just let them hear it.

 

[BC867]

I don't believe the coach is losing the team at this point. I think we are just seeing what happens with a ton of young guys on the roster and that is inconsistent effort. They just came off a 3 game stretch of looking quite good and playing with high energy and now had one stinker after that. Their effort level is simply up and down at this point and I wouldn't be surprised if they play extremely hard for the next 4-5 games straight.

Per past history (one winning 4-game stretch all season), I wouldn't bet on the Suns playing "extremely hard for the next 4-5 games". We shall see!

As far as Igor, he's never "had" this young team. Extremes don't usually provide good results. We've never seen him show enthusiasm on the sideline.

Or, as 1tinsoldier put it, push-back to the refs, to lead by example. As has been posted by many, Igor is not the right Head Coach for this team.

He is the right Head Coach for the domineering butthead Sarver, but we see where his emotionless subordinate GM's and Head Coaches have gotten the Suns.

They don't rebound. They don't get to the free throw line. And that stupid weave 23 feet from the basket. Everybody including Ayton hangs out at the 3-point line.

Perhaps the best description of the Suns coaching philosophy is "play it safe". Safe at home pertains to baseball, not basketball.

 

[FB94]

The BS 23 foot weave running the shot clock down to 5 seconds and then watch Crawford dribble off his foot. What ever happened to working the ball inside out, not outside to outsider.

 

[Superbone]

Wish it was a video of him practicing defense.

When is the last time you saw a video of a guy practicing defense?

 

[Superbone]

No, they don't. But the Booker we've seen for much of this season has been either playing injured or trying to play himself into game shape so of course he isn't playing anywhere near his potential. And he's still stuck without a true PG.

This guy at the Y Booker with head band wasn't very impressive. I hope we get back the old Booker. I hope it's a simple as taking off the silly headband.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think there's a lot wrong with Warren. Not that he couldn't help a team but I think he's mentally soft and prone to disappearing the moment things go bad for him. He's quiet out there most of the time until it builds up and he goes ballistic on the refs, and don't think every ref in the league hasn't noticed.

He gives us virtually nothing but scoring yet he can be shut down by a stay at home mediocre defender. He gets a lot of his points by lulling the defense to sleep with his inactivity often allowing his defender to double off of him. Once he makes a few baskets, the defender again stays home usually leading to another disappearance by Warren.

As Cotton Fitzsimmons used to say a team can never have enough shooters. It's the coach's job to know how to utilize them.

 

[devilalum]

When is the last time you saw a video of a guy practicing defense?

Obviously

It was a joke. Caption said he was getting ready for the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AzStevenCal]

As Cotton Fitzsimmons used to say a team can never have enough shooters. It's the coach's job to know how to utilize them.

Warren isn't really a shooter though, even with his new found 3 fame he's still mostly a garbage scorer. And I remember Cotton being quite frustrated by one of our best ever shooters. He didn't hesitate to pull or bench Eddie and he eventually traded him away despite being a recent 6th man winner.

 

[Mainstreet]

Warren isn't really a shooter though, even with his new found 3 fame he's still mostly a garbage scorer. And I remember Cotton being quite frustrated by one of our best ever shooters. He didn't hesitate to pull or bench Eddie and he eventually traded him away despite being a recent 6th man winner.

Warren's shooting stats are plenty good, especially this season when he added the 3 point shot.

Eddie Johnson was a streak shooter. Cotton knew when to play Eddie. When he was cold Cotton was smart enough to sit him.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/warretj01.html

 

[AzStevenCal]

Warren's shooting stats are plenty good, especially this season when he added the 3 point shot.

Eddie Johnson was a streak shooter. Cotton knew when to play Eddie. When he was cold Cotton was smart enough to sit him.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/warretj01.html

That's not how I remember it. Have you noticed how often he mentions "heat check" on the broadcasts - almost every game. If he made one shot in a row he felt it was his duty to jack up a half court circus shot with 23 seconds left on the clock just to see if he was on fire. And the next time he defends someone, it will be his first. Cotton couldn't stand him as a player, especially once he won that award.

Now, granted, much of what I'm saying isn't from first hand knowledge. I had already moved out of state and that was during a time when it was a real challenge to see an NBA game let alone a Suns broadcast so much of that is drawn from listening to Al on the radio and talking about the Suns with friends and relatives that still lived in the Valley.

 

[1tinsoldier]

I’m sure this was effecting him as well

imagine the horror if he was stoned and paranoid AND thousands of people were chanting "John Wall hates you!"

btw. what is the Wall hates Oubre story?

 

[Mainstreet]

That's not how I remember it. Have you noticed how often he mentions "heat check" on the broadcasts - almost every game. If he made one shot in a row he felt it was his duty to jack up a half court circus shot with 23 seconds left on the clock just to see if he was on fire. And the next time he defends someone, it will be his first. Cotton couldn't stand him as a player, especially once he won that award.

Now, granted, much of what I'm saying isn't from first hand knowledge. I had already moved out of state and that was during a time when it was a real challenge to see an NBA game let alone a Suns broadcast so much of that is drawn from listening to Al on the radio and talking about the Suns with friends and relatives that still lived in the Valley.

I don't recall Cotton saying he couldn't stand Eddie Johnson as a player. This is news to me.

Eddie Johnson was a streak shooter as I mentioned. When he was hot he was very hot and likewise when he was cold he was cold.

When he talks about a heat check I'm interpreting he is talking about a player shooting to see how hot they are. When Eddie was hot he could go on huge scoring runs. The basket looks huge to a player when they are on a shooting streak and often almost everything goes in. I never had a problem with Eddie putting up shots until he went cold. When he went cold, Cotton would pull him.

Eddie doesn't like the idea of pulling a player from the game when they aren't missing shots. I'm not fond of the idea either.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I don't recall Cotton saying he couldn't stand Eddie Johnson as a player. This is news to me.

Eddie Johnson was a streak shooter as I mentioned. When he was hot he was very hot and likewise when he was cold he was cold.

When he talks about a heat check I'm interpreting he is talking about a player shooting to see how hot they are. When Eddie was hot he could go on huge scoring runs. The basket looks huge to a player when they are on a shooting streak and often almost everything goes in. I never had a problem with Eddie putting up shots until he went cold. When he went cold, Cotton would pull him.

Eddie doesn't like the idea of pulling a player from the game when they aren't missing shots. I'm not fond of the idea either.

Yeah I have no recollection of cotton disliking Eddie. In fact, if I recall correctly I believe we reunited cotton and Eddie who were previously together in KC.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't recall Cotton saying he couldn't stand Eddie Johnson as a player. This is news to me.

Eddie Johnson was a streak shooter as I mentioned. When he was hot he was very hot and likewise when he was cold he was cold.

When he talks about a heat check I'm interpreting he is talking about a player shooting to see how hot they are. When Eddie was hot he could go on huge scoring runs. The basket looks huge to a player when they are on a shooting streak and often almost everything goes in. I never had a problem with Eddie putting up shots until he went cold. When he went cold, Cotton would pull him.

Eddie doesn't like the idea of pulling a player from the game when they aren't missing shots. I'm not fond of the idea either.

Nor do I. I didn't say he told us, I'm saying others said or implied it. I had a big problem with Eddie throwing away possessions as he often did under the guise of it being a heat check. Pop wins more games than any other coach would with the same players and the single most important reason why, IMO, is he tries to get his players to treat each possession as if the game were in the balance. We've never had that mindset and Eddie was the counter king to that mindset.

And the point I was making about Eddie yelling "heat check" on the broadcast is he tends to do it frequently when a player follows up a made basket with a questionable shot. A bad shot is a bad shot. Your teammates don't know where to be or what to do if you're jacking up contested 30 foot jumpers early in the shot clock. It's a team game and the idea that a player needs to find out right away if he's hot is not supported historically by the eye test or stats.

As for pulling players that are on scoring streaks, I don't know how that factors into this conversation but I'd agree. You should ride the hot hand until the other team stops it although IMO that rarely has anything to do with the player actually being hot. It has more to do with the looks they are getting.