Warriors @ Suns 12-31-18

[JCSunsfan]

I don't usually real game threads during the games. I read them afterwards. But I really hate coming in here after losses lately.

 

[Hoop Head]

And those busts are gone, and yet we're even worse. Again, who's to blame?


Also, it's looking quite possible that we go 0-10, then 5-5, then 0-10 again (or 1-9 or 2-8). Do you call that improvement?

Why does someone have to be to blame? You are, for all it matters. It makes no difference who each of us says is to blame. The person to blame in Sarver's eyes was McD and that's why he was fired. That might make too much sense though because then you need to blame someone for why we haven't been fixed and the answer to that is simple, teams don't go from last place to the playoffs during a season.


We have an incomplete roster and it's clear to see that but we also don't have expendable assets to waste for a bandaid. McD pissed away what assets we had this past offseason in ways that didn't help us improve. Now we're stuck with less available to make deals with and there are also less teams willing to part with key pieces because it's the middle of the season and other teams don't give a crap if we suck. In fact they know we're desperate for a PG so they've been asking for a premium from us so it's wise to wait rather than pay that price to appease some people who aren't buying tickets to games and aren't big time sponsors so they're just going to continue evaluating the talent we have to be better prepared to make a move if something reasonable comes about. If a deal does present itself it needs to be one that can help us more in the future than right now. We're not a playoff team, we weren't going to compete for the playoffs this year regardless so we lose nothing by being patient. We actually end up with a higher draft pick that could bring in a better player or be traded for more by continuing down the path we're on.


There's no need for us to make a move using one of the few assets we have that may be viewed as expendable just to win an extra 4-5 games this year. We've been competitive, we've been capable of winning damn near any game in the last 2-3 weeks we've played and that's all that's important, not our actual record. Our young guys are progressing, whether you admit it or not, and this team is building chemistry and an identity of sorts right now. We'll be better suited to add a player after the year is over who can help us take the next step because we'll have a more complete team around them and all of our core players will be more prepared to play multiple positions and fit where we need because they learned to play positions and roles they hadn't prior to this year. That also makes them more valuable in a trade later if that's are plans for them. They’re learning that because we aren’t trading off the #4 pick from last year because YOU don’t see he’s improved his play this year for a stop gap PG that helps us win 5 more games, gets a worse pick, and does nothing to help this team beyond this year.

What does it even matter if we make a move to improve? You won't see it anyways and find something else to complain about. You've been whining lately how we're worse than ever and Ayton has regressed and so has Booker, Bridges, and everyone else while being damaged beyond repair. I have zero doubts if the Suns made a move to add a PG that you would criticize it and jump on Igor when he doesn't win the next 10 games in a row. It really doesn't matter what happens with the Suns, one thing is for certain and that's you'll be here complaining about it because apparently you see something that literally no one else does. Somehow you even see it when you aren't even watching the games, which is really impressive.

 

[devilalum]

They just played 3 of the top 8 teams in the league.

I still believe the Suns can win a lot more games, probably most of those wins will come against lesser opponents.

The next 4 are all against good teams but not top 8.

 

[SirStefan32]

Why does someone have to be to blame? You are, for all it matters. It makes no difference who each of says is to blame. The person to blame in Sarver's eyes was McD and that's why he was fired. That might make too much sense though because then you need to blame someone for why we haven't been fixed and the answer to that is simple, teams don't go from last place to the playoffs during a season.


We have an incomplete roster and it's clear to see that but we also don't have expendable assets to waste for a bandaid. McD pissed away what assets we had this past offseason in ways that didn't help us improve. Now we're stuck with less available to make deals with and there are also less teams willing to part with key pieces because it's the middle of the season and other teams don't give a crap if we suck. In fact they know we're desperate for a PG so they've been asking for a premium from us so it's wise to wait rather than pay that price to appease some people who aren't buying tickets to games and aren't big time sponsors so they're just going to continue evaluating the talent we have to be better prepared to make a move if something reasonable comes about. If a deal does present itself it needs to be one that can help us more in the future than right now. We're not a playoff team, we weren't going to compete for the playoffs this year regardless so we lose nothing by being patient. We actually end up with a higher draft pick that could bring in a better player or be traded for more by continuing down the path we're on.


There's no need for us to make a move using one of the few assets we have that may be viewed as expendable just to win an extra 4-5 games this year. We've been competitive, we've been capable of winning damn near any game in the last 2-3 weeks we've played and that's all that's important, not our actual record. Our young guys are progressing, whether you admit it or not, and this team is building chemistry and an identity of sorts right now. We'll be better suited to add a player after the year is over who can help us take the next step because we'll have a more complete team around them and all of our core players will be more prepared to play multiple positions and fit where we need because they learned to play positions and roles they hadn't prior to this year. That also makes them more valuable in a trade later if that's are plans for them. They’re learning that because we aren’t trading off the #4 pick from last year because YOU don’t see he’s improved his play this year for a stop gap PG that helps us win 5 more games, gets a worse pick, and does nothing to help this team beyond this year.

What does it even matter if we make a move to improve? You won't see it anyways and find something else to complain about. You've been whining lately how we're worse than ever and Ayton has regressed and so has Booker, Bridges, and everyone else while being damaged beyond repair. I have zero doubts if the Suns made a move to add a PG that you would criticize it and jump on Igor when he doesn't win the next 10 games in a row. It really doesn't matter what happens with the Suns, one thing is for certain and that's you'll be here complaining about it because apparently you see something that literally no one else does. Somehow you even see it when you aren't even watching the games, which is really impressive.

I wish I could like this a thousand times. I am assuming this was in response to one of the folks I have on ignore, and it is 100% spot-on.

 

[Hoop Head]

I wish I could like this a thousand times. I am assuming this was in response to one of the folks I have on ignore, and it is 100% spot-on.

I made the mistake of hitting the "show ignored comments" button on the bottom right because there were too many conversations happening that I was missing part of. I'm tired of seeing even the one side of the nonsense though, even the one side is better than the 1Sun side. He doesn't post while a game is actually being played because he's not watching it, if he did then he'd see everything he's saying is nonsense. He's now coming into game threads when they're finished though to sort of gloat about losses. I don't care if we had a roster full of players I hated, I couldn't enjoy losing all the time like he does. A loss to him is another confirmation that "Igor sucks" as far as he's concerned. I swear he wants to see the Suns lose because that means Igor loses and that's a win for him. He's still spewing the same garbage he was a month ago though like "Ayton is being damaged, Booker is regressing, Igor Igor Igor". If he actually watched games he wouldn't say stupid stuff like that because no one that has watched the last dozen games would come to that conclusion.

He's not the only one though, it started earlier in this thread when it was mentioned that Booker might not play. Then here came BC saying it was because he's been playing PG. Anyone that's watched the Suns knows that Booker isn't playing a whole lot of PG, he's not starting at PG anymore also. When he got hit the other day though it was on defense while he was trying to take a charge. That didn't matter though because it didn't fit the narrative he created and he just had to throw it out no matter how many times it's been disputed and proved false.

There are a couple of people like that here now and they all back each other up, which sort of feeds their own egos or something and causes them to repeat that nonsense because they have at least 1 person agreeing with them. I know I shouldn't have responded but like I said, it's started infesting game threads now and it'd be ok if he were watching the game and commenting on what's happening but he's not, he sees the score and assumes he knows what's right when that's not even close to the case.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I know I shouldn't have responded but like I said, it's started infesting game threads now and it'd be ok if he were watching the game and commenting on what's happening but he's not, he sees the score and assumes he knows what's right when that's not even close to the case.

I've made that mistake a few times and I've regretted it each time. But curiosity killed the cat and cost me a several IQ points too.

 

[1Sun]

Why does someone have to be to blame? You are, for all it matters. It makes no difference who each of us says is to blame. The person to blame in Sarver's eyes was McD and that's why he was fired. That might make too much sense though because then you need to blame someone for why we haven't been fixed and the answer to that is simple, teams don't go from last place to the playoffs during a season.


We have an incomplete roster and it's clear to see that but we also don't have expendable assets to waste for a bandaid. McD pissed away what assets we had this past offseason in ways that didn't help us improve. Now we're stuck with less available to make deals with and there are also less teams willing to part with key pieces because it's the middle of the season and other teams don't give a crap if we suck. In fact they know we're desperate for a PG so they've been asking for a premium from us so it's wise to wait rather than pay that price to appease some people who aren't buying tickets to games and aren't big time sponsors so they're just going to continue evaluating the talent we have to be better prepared to make a move if something reasonable comes about. If a deal does present itself it needs to be one that can help us more in the future than right now. We're not a playoff team, we weren't going to compete for the playoffs this year regardless so we lose nothing by being patient. We actually end up with a higher draft pick that could bring in a better player or be traded for more by continuing down the path we're on.


There's no need for us to make a move using one of the few assets we have that may be viewed as expendable just to win an extra 4-5 games this year. We've been competitive, we've been capable of winning damn near any game in the last 2-3 weeks we've played and that's all that's important, not our actual record. Our young guys are progressing, whether you admit it or not, and this team is building chemistry and an identity of sorts right now. We'll be better suited to add a player after the year is over who can help us take the next step because we'll have a more complete team around them and all of our core players will be more prepared to play multiple positions and fit where we need because they learned to play positions and roles they hadn't prior to this year. That also makes them more valuable in a trade later if that's are plans for them. They’re learning that because we aren’t trading off the #4 pick from last year because YOU don’t see he’s improved his play this year for a stop gap PG that helps us win 5 more games, gets a worse pick, and does nothing to help this team beyond this year.

What does it even matter if we make a move to improve? You won't see it anyways and find something else to complain about. You've been whining lately how we're worse than ever and Ayton has regressed and so has Booker, Bridges, and everyone else while being damaged beyond repair. I have zero doubts if the Suns made a move to add a PG that you would criticize it and jump on Igor when he doesn't win the next 10 games in a row. It really doesn't matter what happens with the Suns, one thing is for certain and that's you'll be here complaining about it because apparently you see something that literally no one else does. Somehow you even see it when you aren't even watching the games, which is really impressive.

A lot of false assumptions in this post.

First, I didn't expect playoffs. I expected improvement, not the team being even worse than last year and being on pace for the worst record in franchise history.

Second, McD is gone, and yet we have continued to get worse, albeit under the "leadership" of a head coach hired by the justifiably fired McD.

Third, point guards aren't going to become any more available if we just wait for them, unless you're interested in paying the likes of Ricky Rubio $25 million per season.

Fourth, the only "identity" this team is taking on is as the doormat of the NBA, where teams like the Thunder feel fine resting their best player because they will blow us out in our own building, anyway, and where teams like the freaking Kings come into our building and blow us out. Need I remind you that we are literally the only team in the Western Conference out of playoff contention at this stage of the season? Whatever "identity" we have very much needs to change.

Fifth, players don't improve by being a jack of all trades and a master of none. Playing one's natural position at an elite level is preferable to playing multiple positions so-so. More square pegs in round holes here. Like in any sport, you need to define roles, pick the right players for those roles, and develop them to perform in those roles as well as possible. Not one player has improved or developed into what he could be by playing out of position. Not one. And before you say "James Harden", note that he was a combo guard in high school and college, and in any event he needed to be paired with Chris Paul for his game really to take off. And even before then, Patrick Beverley was more of a point guard than anyone we currently have on the roster. And Devin Booker is no James Harden. And when players who would excel at their natural positions end up struggling because they are being played out of position, that lowers, not increases, their trade value.

Sixth, I am not calling for Josh Jackson to be traded. In fact, I think Josh Jackson would be developing into a superstar, but for a coach who is misusing him and who is incapable of developing any of his players due to failure to instill a culture of accountability. I maintain, as I have all along, that more draft picks moving forward are useless to us since we have way too much youth, anyway. Outside of Zion Williamson, there is not a single player in the 2019 draft that will be able to help us at all during the entire life of his rookie contract. We need to package our own pick (top 3 protected, in case by some miracle Zion doesn't go #1), the Milwaukee pick and perhaps even our 2021 pick, together with Okobo or Melton and filler to pick up a viable NBA starting point guard, and the sooner we do it, the better, so we can build that all-important chemistry you mention.

Seventh, speaking of chemistry, that means more than the players liking each other. Fact remains, the team continues to look disjointed on the court. I attribute that to three factors: the lack of a point guard, poor coaching and (contrary to your belief) too many players being played out of position with not enough definition of roles.

Eighth, look at the numbers. In terms of efficiency, Booker HAS regressed. So has Warren. Bridges hasn't progressed. Neither has Melton or Okobo. Jackson is all over the place, though getting less minutes overall or being benched during a game as a "reward" for playing well doesn't help that, and Oubre is already falling into that category. As for Ayton, he looks like a worldbeater one minute, and then Igor fails to keep him involved in the game plan, resulting in the likes of 24-point quarters followed by quarters in which he barely touches the ball. I think Ayton is a generational talent, so Igor won't ruin him right away. But in time...

Ninth, the need for a point guard has absolutely nothing to do with record this year. It is necessary to develop the young players, see what they can do when not forced to play 4 on 5 and build that necessary chemistry together, so they can learn how to win for the future. A losing culture breeds and perpetuates itself. Playing without a point guard in the NBA is like playing football without a quarterback or baseball without a pitcher. No good can ever come of it, and the longer the team allows it to happen, the harder it will be to dig out if the resulting hole it digs for itself, NOT in terms of this year's record, but in terms of the long term future.

Tenth, it is absurd to preach patience at this point. Fans like me have been patient for eight years and counting. The Suns currently have the second longest playoff drought in the NBA (which will become the longest when the Kings make the playoffs this season or next) and one of the longest in NBA history (and this was the fourth most winningest franchise in the NBA before this stretch of futility began)...and there's no end in sight. Patience has gotten this franchise nowhere. We did nothing but accumulate assets for years, and then our "brilliant" GM just gave them away. And now your proposed solution is just to accumulate more assets and wait and see? Destiny is not a matter of chance. It is a matter of choice. Perhaps just this once, the Suns franchise should be proactive to get what it needs rather than just wait for a gift that will never come.

Finally, you have no clue how I would react to the Suns making a move to improve, because as of yet it hasn't happened.

 

[leclerc]

They just have to stay aggressive and work on their game. Defense and offense have been better lately. Guys have up and down periods, that's normal.

I am liking Ayton lately. He's getting instant results. When he's aggressive on offense and defense he and the team is successful. Now they have to grow and get better at getting him the ball. That goes for the coaching staff to the players and to Ayton.

I am not expecting us to be a .500 team from here on in, but I am counting on being better than 4-24 or whatever crazy start we had.

Go Suns!

 

[devilalum]

What about Melton?

Had 4 steals and was arguably the MVP on the floor during the first 20 minutes of the game.

He looks to me like a guy that might have a long career in the league.

 

[1Sun]

I made the mistake of hitting the "show ignored comments" button on the bottom right because there were too many conversations happening that I was missing part of. I'm tired of seeing even the one side of the nonsense though, even the one side is better than the 1Sun side. He doesn't post while a game is actually being played because he's not watching it, if he did then he'd see everything he's saying is nonsense. He's now coming into game threads when they're finished though to sort gloat about losses. I don't care if we had a roster full of players I hated, I couldn't enjoy losing all the time like he does. A loss to him is another confirmation that "Igor sucks" as far as he's concerned. I swear he wants to see the Suns lose because that means Igor loses and that's a win for him. He's still spewing the same garbage he was a month ago though like "Ayton is being damaged, Booker is regressing, Igor Igor Igor". If he actually watched games he wouldn't say stupid stuff like that because no one that has watched the last dozen games would come to that conclusion.

He's not the only one though, it started earlier in this thread when it was mentioned that Booker might not play. Then here came BC saying it was because he's been playing PG. Anyone that's watched the Suns knows that Booker isn't playing a whole lot of PG, he's not starting at PG anymore also. When he got hit the other day though it was on defense while he was trying to take a charge. That didn't matter though because it didn't fit the narrative he created and he just had to throw it out no matter how many times it's been disputed and proved false.

There are a couple of people like that here now and they all back each other up, which sort of feeds their own egos or something and causes them to repeat that nonsense because they have at least 1 person agreeing with them. I know I shouldn't have responded but like I said, it's started infesting game threads now and it'd be ok if he were watching the game and commenting on what's happening but he's not, he sees the score and assumes he knows what's right when that's not even close to the case.

Has it occurred to you that I haven't been posting during some games (in particular during some home games) because I have been AT those games? SMH.

 

[SirStefan32]

What about Melton?

Had 4 steals and was arguably the MVP on the floor during the first 20 minutes of the game.

He looks to me like a guy that might have a long career in the league.

My issue with Melton is that he has no court vision. He sees what he is looking at directly. If he is trying to run a pick and roll, he sees the roller and that's it. Three point shooter on the other side can be open for five seconds, Melton will not see him. It drives me crazy.

 

[1Sun]

My issue with Melton is that he has no court vision. He sees what he is looking at directly. If he is trying to run a pick and roll, he sees the roller and that's it. Three point shooter on the other side can be open for five seconds, Melton will not see him. It drives me crazy.

I was about to post just this. He has tunnel vision. He isn't selfish per se, but it comes across that way because he seldom finds the open guy. As a result, the offense bogs down with him on the floor. While nowhere near what it needs to be, the offense looked more fluid with Crawford and even Okobo at the point. I think Melton's ceiling is as an Eddie House type energy guy and scorer off the bench.

 

[taz02]

The team has shown improvement, the problem is they were so far beyond bad it isn't enough. When I watch the games I can't help but feel they should be better and winning more games with the players they have.

The suns are currently 5 five games behind last years record despite adding the #1 and #10 pick.

I personally think that aside from needing a PG the coaching has left a lot to be desired. Maybe a discussion on specific things the coach has done right or excelled at would help clear some of the coaching concerns.

 

[1Sun]

The team has shown improvement, the problem is they were so far beyond bad it isn't enough. When I watch the games I can't help but feel they should be better and winning more games with the players they have.

The suns are currently 5 five games behind last years record despite adding the #1 and #10 pick.

I personally think that aside from needing a PG the coaching has left a lot to be desired. Maybe a discussion on specific things the coach has done right or excelled at would help clear some of the coaching concerns.

Sadly, about the only thing concrete that any of Igor's supporters have been able to point to is that the team is no longer quitting or getting blown out as badly or as frequently as it did under Igor earlier in the year. A pretty darn low bar, if you ask me.

 

[1tinsoldier]

posters who complain about 1sun wasting their time sure do waste a lot of time complaining about 1sun

like i said. if you want to ignore someone, i wish you'd just do it instead of whining about it
-- with your "ilk" -- "to feed your own egos?"
i'd like to set an ignore on every high-horse post that includes a rant about who they ignore

1sun just invested a lot of time writing a thoughtful article-length post that most posters would mostly agree with if they hadn't already started going tribal

it's a new year.
THANK YOU, 1SUN, AND EVERY OTHER POSTER FOR THE FREE CONTENT YOU CONTRIBUTED TO THIS FORUM IN 2018
none of which, i have to agree with, or like, or even read
but i appreciate none-the-less

 

[Suns_fan69]

My issue with Melton is that he has no court vision. He sees what he is looking at directly. If he is trying to run a pick and roll, he sees the roller and that's it. Three point shooter on the other side can be open for five seconds, Melton will not see him. It drives me crazy.

I think we have to accept that this is something he might never develop. Wasn't he a 2 guard growing up? I might be selling him short but Patrick Berverly is probably his ceiling. Tough nosed defensive minded guard who can hit the occasional 3, but will never be a major playmaker. And that's ok, as long as we have someone that can be a playmaker on the court with him.

 

[1Sun]

I think we have to accept that this is something he might never develop. Wasn't he a 2 guard growing up? I might be selling him short but Patrick Berverly is probably his ceiling. Tough nosed defensive minded guard who can hit the occasional 3, but will never be a major playmaker. And that's ok, as long as we have someone that can be a playmaker on the court with him.

Then that playmaker will have to be Bridges, Jackson, Warren or Oubre, because it sure as heck isn't Booker, whose assist numbers are up but whose efficiency is falling off a cliff, whose potential as a HOF shooting guard is being wasted and whose status as "playmaker" is killing our offense in the fourth quarters of games.

I'm at the point of advocating trading Booker if we do not pick up the necessary playmaking compliment to him at point guard.

 

[Suns_fan69]

Booker makes some sub-par passes and decisions, but he is by far the best playmaker on the team, by virtue of the attention he gets from the defense. He's averaging a career high in assists (probably in turnovers too, but I'm too lazy to look it up) and has a few hockey assists style passes. He's not as air tight with his dribbling and passing as we'd all like he's definitely a playmaker.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The team has shown improvement, the problem is they were so far beyond bad it isn't enough. When I watch the games I can't help but feel they should be better and winning more games with the players they have.

The suns are currently 5 five games behind last years record despite adding the #1 and #10 pick.

I personally think that aside from needing a PG the coaching has left a lot to be desired. Maybe a discussion on specific things the coach has done right or excelled at would help clear some of the coaching concerns.

Maybe? Adding the first and tenth pick in the draft has helped us but I don't think it's that simple. We were the worst team last year and we've added a new coach and at least 8 new players; continuity is a huge deal in the NBA and we have none. Maturity and experience is also a key factor in succeeding in this league and we're lacking there too.

We can go 10 deep (Booker, Ayton, Melton, Warren, Bridges, Okobo, Jackson, Oubre, Holmes and Bender) with players that average 22 years old, I just don't know how anyone can ignore how incredibly young and inexperienced we are. And because of that youth, I don't know how anyone can truly identify where the fault lies when they are pointing out supposed coaching errors.

 

[1Sun]

Maybe? Adding the first and tenth pick in the draft has helped us but I don't think it's that simple. We were the worst team last year and we've added a new coach and at least 8 new players; continuity is a huge deal in the NBA and we have none. Maturity and experience is also a key factor in succeeding in this league and we're lacking there too.

We can go 10 deep (Booker, Ayton, Melton, Warren, Bridges, Okobo, Jackson, Oubre, Holmes and Bender) with players that average 22 years old, I just don't know how anyone can ignore how incredibly young and inexperienced we are. And because of that youth, I don't know how anyone can truly identify where the fault lies when they are pointing out supposed coaching errors.

We were as young and inexperienced last season, and we had as much turnover (in fact, more, given the steady stream of G League point guards we brought in to start for us), and less overall talent to boot, and yet we showed steadier and more appreciable progress under Jay Triano, who is a mediocre at best coach.

 

[elindholm]

I don't know how you can guard the Warriors when they're making their shots. Give them space and they make it; be anywhere in their vicinity and they'll run into you and draw a foul. It's not possible to guard a good shooter when you also have the burden of dodging all of the contact they are attempting to initiate.

 

[elindholm]

My issue with Melton is that he has no court vision.

... on offense. But his defensive vision is good; he's probably the best on the team at jumping into passing lanes. That suggests that he has room for improvement on the offensive end too.

 

[1Sun]

... on offense. But his defensive vision is good; he's probably the best on the team at jumping into passing lanes. That suggests that he has room for improvement on the offensive end too.

Unless, of course, he is one of those players who can't multitask (you know, who can't dribble and pay attention to anything other than his own dribbling at the same time or who can't envision multiple passing lanes at once)...

 

[devilalum]

... on offense. But his defensive vision is good; he's probably the best on the team at jumping into passing lanes. That suggests that he has room for improvement on the offensive end too.

He has such little experience. He’s 20 but he didn’t even play all last year. I bet as his confidence grows the game will slow down and he’ll start seeing some of those opportunities. That said he currently seems to be moving in the direction of a shoot first type PG.


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[devilalum]

Really the only grade you can give most of the team is incomplete.

We’ve all seen players like Melton go on to have nice careers and we’ve also seen them gone after a year or two.


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