Suns @ Trail Blazers Tuesday game thread 12-19-2023

1982baskets

Veteran
Joined
Nov 18, 2023
Posts
126
Reaction score
146
Location
Arizona
This offense makes absolutely no sense. We should be dropping 120 with ease on most nights and yet we are barely getting over 100 against poor defenses. Is that a Vogel issue, because it's not a personnel issue IMO?
Based on what I've seen, the Suns don't have the weapons that everyone thinks they do. Book and KD get theirs, but after that, it's really a lot of shooters who aren't that good who we need to make 3s at a high clip. None of them of that level where they are unstoppable. We don't have the depth that some people think we do.

We shot 5-23 from three. Of which Grayson was 1-5, Nurk was 0-2, Gordon 1-4.
Book was off from 3 as well.

Here's what I see.

We lack a PG that can get into the paint and create/score with ease. Those "paint touches" with dribble penetration. We ask Book to be that. And he can be, but he's also a SG. Teams often double KD and Book. Meaning our 3 point shooters need to make them pay.

When Grayson/Nurk/Gordon/Goodwin go a combined 1-13, you're screwed. I'd bet, at least 10 of those shots were wide open. Book also missed some open ones. You can't win in this league, if you miss a lot of your open looks. We held them to 109. That third quarter is where it all went to hell as we slipped defensively.

Again, it comes back to this. The GM built a team that doesn't have defensive players who can shoot, nor players like Watanbe or others who can shoot (but also defend).

The plan was for Book to be a PG, Durant to feast off as a scorer and Beal to be a lethal 3rd option. With the injuries that never happened. Then, the role players we put together, they are simply not that good. You could put any coach in this situation, and I'd struggle to see them get this group to play better than .500 ball. How many of these players have we seen been in these same roles we've given them and end up being on a contender in that role?

Giving you an example - The Bucks dropped 132. Here's their scoring breakdown. Middleton is an all-star level third option. Shot 3-6 from 3 point land. Portis shot 3-6, and Dame shot 7-12. That's how you win in this league with high octane offense. You need a lot of firepower from 3. Based on what I've seen of us, the Grayson Allen/Gordon/Nurk/Goodwin/(Insert one of Okogie/Metu etc) just won't give you that level of shooting on a consistent basis. Allen and Gordon can go off, but not at an all-star level. For this whole we'll score 120 a night thing to work, we needed Beal to be healthy and have that third all-star. Right now what we have is Durant/Book getting theirs, and a bunch of misfit role players.
 

Sparky16

All Star
Joined
Jul 1, 2021
Posts
685
Reaction score
693
Location
Phoenix
Well, I think we are currently witnesses to the results of the "executive".

Maybe watching him totally fail as a coach too will convince Ishbia that Thomas can come over to dinner but he can't plan the menu.

That said, I think Thomas is too controversial to become coach, or even get a real title, we're going to be stuck with this 'quasi-GM entirely probable conspiracy theory' for a while, unless Thomas goes and harasses some more women.

Best hope for a quick fix right now might be the return of Mike D'Antoni... at least we'd have an offense and a coach with some fire. Team seems perfect for him, imbalanced, no depth, no youth. It's his dream roster.
This is what i thought watching the Marion ring of honor when i saw Pringles - why is he not coaching a team void of any defensive players - seems like a perfect fit. At least we wont have to watch 1990s iso ball on offense - hell bring Nash back also, he would be the 5th best player on this roster even pushing 50
 

wagon mound 464

Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Posts
247
Reaction score
196
"

Post​


See new posts

Conversation​








You must be registered for see images attach


Gerald Bourguet

https://twitter.com/GeraldBourguet

"Suns have lost 7 of their last 10 games"

___________________
Suns
dropping turds all over the hardwoods. Embarrassing and pathetic.
Vogel doesn't have any answers, lost in space. Too many substitutions confusing the offense.


While Beal awaits his next injury, start Book, KD, Okogie, Allen, and Nurkic

May be time to bench Goodwin and Little and only play Gordon, Mehu, Eubanks from the bench.

Time to revert back to the D'Antoni style > 7 seconds or less?
Present style isn't working as dribbling and passing for 22 seconds isn't showing results.
 

95pro

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 10, 2007
Posts
12,324
Reaction score
3,917
Book really let his ego get to him, he kept trying to "take" Ayton and Thybulle, just seems that gets in the way of his efficiency and takes him out of his rhythm for the rest of the game. I thought thoughts how we let that lead evaporate in the 3rd.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,523
Reaction score
11,614
Location
Tempe, AZ
Book really let his ego get to him, he kept trying to "take" Ayton and Thybulle, just seems that gets in the way of his efficiency and takes him out of his rhythm for the rest of the game. I thought thoughts how we let that lead evaporate in the 3rd.

He wasn't playing PG last night, that's for sure. I don't need to know how many assists he did or didn't have, he looked like year 2 or 3 Booker out there just forcing up shots for himself barely paying attention to his teammates. He did defer to Durant a time or two but when he did, he stood back and watched.

I'm more indifferent to Point Book than others. I know he can do it and I don't mind when he is the PG be it due to injuries or rotation but he proved the last 3 years with Chris Paul that he's at his best at SG and pushing him to PG full time was a mistake. Maybe it's better with Beal, it can't be much worse, but this team needs to do something quick if they hope to make a splash of any sorts in the postseason.
 

BirdGangThing

Casual Fan
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Posts
12,876
Reaction score
16,636
Location
Arcadia
idk wtf is going on but it's definitely mental - we're seeing this team lock in at times but they just can't stay locked in - especially against the trashiest teams in the league - out hustled by hungrier and younger players - it is embarrassing - but again - I don't think it's a roster problem this ish is mental
 

95pro

ASFN Icon
Joined
May 10, 2007
Posts
12,324
Reaction score
3,917
idk wtf is going on but it's definitely mental - we're seeing this team lock in at times but they just can't stay locked in - especially against the trashiest teams in the league - out hustled by hungrier and younger players - it is embarrassing - but again - I don't think it's a roster problem this ish is mental

Veteran players think they can just turn it on at anytime.

We are a group of hired gunners/scorers who have faced adversity (injuries, different lineups, new players, new staff) and haven't had time to develop any chemistry and don't know how to play FOR each other.
 

DeAnna

Just A Face in The Crowd
Joined
Jun 13, 2002
Posts
7,279
Reaction score
753
Location
Goodyear, AZ
Someone on Twitter posted "Is this the Phoenix Suns team? Are being punked?"

Had to laugh at that one 'cause it's true. Is the Point Booker experiment a failure? Seems that way.
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,676
Reaction score
781
Every season Booker has stretches like this where he sucks. Before getting Paul it didn't matter because the Suns would lose whether he played well or not. When they had Paul it didn't matter because Paul could carry the team when Booker sucked. Now the Suns win when he plays well and lose when he sucks.
 

Peter Sheldon

Veteran
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Posts
219
Reaction score
295
Location
South Carolina
Every season Booker has stretches like this where he sucks. Before getting Paul it didn't matter because the Suns would lose whether he played well or not. When they had Paul it didn't matter because Paul could carry the team when Booker sucked. Now the Suns win when he plays well and lose when he sucks.
I think you nailed it. On any given night, KD will get his high efficiency 30 points while maddeningly dribbling the ball off his leg and his requisit several bad passes/game. But if Book has a bad game, it's over.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,822
Reaction score
53,508
I overrated this roster but they’re still far too talented to look this bad. I said it last week that they play like a team that’s never practiced on either side of the ball. Worse yet is it’s only a matter of time before KD and Nurk suffer their annual injury and Book is no iron man either. Right now they’re probably a play-in team at best.

Worse yet, if the Suns can't figure it out, they don't have much hope for the foreseeable future.
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,676
Reaction score
781
I think you nailed it. On any given night, KD will get his high efficiency 30 points while maddeningly dribbling the ball off his leg and his requisit several bad passes/game. But if Book has a bad game, it's over.
Yes, it appears that Durant's impact on winning is not as large as Paul's was in 2021 and 2022. Durant has a better PER than Paul did, but Paul's adjusted win shares were better.
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,676
Reaction score
781
This offense makes absolutely no sense. We should be dropping 120 with ease on most nights and yet we are barely getting over 100 against poor defenses. Is that a Vogel issue, because it's not a personnel issue IMO?
I think the problem is that Vogel is treating Booker as if he's Paul or Nash and letting him control too much of the offense.
 

MrYeahBut

4 Food groups: beans, chili, cheese, bacon
Supporting Member
Joined
May 20, 2002
Posts
17,732
Reaction score
13,002
Location
Albq
Some voodoo witch probably put a curse on us for beating the Pelicans in '22.

All the chemistry went out the window, all our roster moves suck ass.

We need to sacrifice a live chicken.

Make a chicken sandwich with a live chicken
 

Peter Sheldon

Veteran
Joined
Apr 19, 2019
Posts
219
Reaction score
295
Location
South Carolina
I think the problem is that Vogel is treating Booker as if he's Paul or Nash and letting him control too much of the offense.
True, but who, then, controls the ball? Goodwin? Gordon? I'd like to experiment with that. But results might not be ideal. But, hey, the product on the floor right now isn't working anyway. So try stuff. What is the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Watching Booker drive inside to dish out to a random league-minimum guy who clanks a 3 simply isn't gonna get us to the promised land. I see a Suns 3 get hoisted lately and totally expect it to miss.
 

Hoop Head

ASFN Icon
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Posts
16,523
Reaction score
11,614
Location
Tempe, AZ
True, but who, then, controls the ball? Goodwin? Gordon? I'd like to experiment with that. But results might not be ideal. But, hey, the product on the floor right now isn't working anyway. So try stuff. What is the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Watching Booker drive inside to dish out to a random league-minimum guy who clanks a 3 simply isn't gonna get us to the promised land. I see a Suns 3 get hoisted lately and totally expect it to miss.

He isn't the creator or playmaker Nash or Paul were/are. He needs to work in a structured offense and not be given free reign to do as he pleases. He's not capable of directing others to the right spots or finding guys in motion for easy buckets.

We need an offensive overhaul, badly.
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,676
Reaction score
781
True, but who, then, controls the ball? Goodwin? Gordon? I'd like to experiment with that. But results might not be ideal. But, hey, the product on the floor right now isn't working anyway. So try stuff. What is the definition of insanity? Trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Watching Booker drive inside to dish out to a random league-minimum guy who clanks a 3 simply isn't gonna get us to the promised land. I see a Suns 3 get hoisted lately and totally expect it to miss.

Booker can control the ball and be the PG, but I think a coach needs to decide what play is being run. Right now it looks like Booker is the coach on the court, and I don't think he knows how to do that.
 

wagon mound 464

Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Posts
247
Reaction score
196
Trevor Booth said on ClutchPoints:

"The Phoenix Suns had championship expectations and hired a championship coach to get it done.

Twenty-seven games in, the Suns are not a contender and do not look like they will be one.

Phoenix lost to the lowly Portland Trail Blazers Tuesday night, 109-104, and fell to 14-13. The Suns are good for 10th place in the West"

Kings up next on their home court. Hoping for a win but losing confidence at this point.
 

BirdGangThing

Casual Fan
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Posts
12,876
Reaction score
16,636
Location
Arcadia
Suns started this game determined - they weren't turning it over they were stealing the ball and leading fast breaks with wide open shots - Allen was bringing the ball up and getting it to Book who was dishing and scoring - KD was taking care of the ball - we went 50% on our first 6 three pointers - Nurk was attacking the paint - we were coasting - there was most definitely a hint of victory in the air - I believe I asked why we couldn't always play that way
 

Chaplin

Better off silent
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
45,393
Reaction score
15,317
Location
Round Rock, TX
It was a great first quarter and it didn't feel like it was a stretch for them to perform like that. But then the 3rd quarter came around and we fell flat on our face. What did Frank Vogel say at halftime? Did he say anything?
 

RON_IN_OC

https://www.ronevansrealty.com
Joined
Mar 10, 2004
Posts
26,036
Reaction score
33,106
Location
BirdGangThing
I don't know what going on with this team

Tired of defending them
Say what we will about guys like KD...yes, he's still a super star...what's done is done...but I think it's pretty easy to see the heart, soul and hussle has been gutted from the team through trades.

This is reminiscent of the Barkley days right before he got traded away.
 
OP
OP
Mainstreet

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
113,822
Reaction score
53,508
Here are a couple of snippets from a free to read Gerald Bourquet newsletter today.

I'd recommend reading the entire article as it breaks down some of the Suns problems.


From PHNX:


Some of that has to trace back to coaching. Any team with Devin Booker and Kevin Durant should be better than what the Suns have showed over the last two weeks. Losing to playoff-caliber opponents was understandable, but getting pummeled at home by the Knicks, squeaking by the Wizards and falling apart against the Blazers isn't. It's one thing to acknowledge the team's injury woes and how they've prevented Phoenix from establishing rotations to build chemistry; it's another to blame those problems for the Suns' recent lack of heart and execution.

---------------------------------------------------------------

It's too early and purely speculative to say Vogel has already lost his locker room, but with everything going wrong, this team has some demons to exorcise. Whether that's in the form or a players only meeting, blocking out the noise or simply refusing to continue like this, the Suns need to get their act together...and they need to do it far sooner than Beal's eventual return in January.


 

wagon mound 464

Veteran
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Posts
247
Reaction score
196
It was a great first quarter and it didn't feel like it was a stretch for them to perform like that. But then the 3rd quarter came around and we fell flat on our face.

What did Frank Vogel say at halftime? Did he say anything?
I don't know what the coach said at halftime,,,,but after the game was over he said > "these guys don't want to lose"

Could have fooled me. Lost energy in the second half and pissed it away again. Concerning ,, huh?
 
Top