Opening Salvo Fired in 2008 QB Controversy

[moklerman]

a simple wrong would have done just fine, but thanks

It isn't a simple wrong and Eli's leash is getting much shorter. I don't think it's hard to imagine Warner having a shot at the job if he was still there. I think it "could" happen but I know it won't. Warner hates cold weather and he's already experienced the joy of playing for NY.

Let NY draft a QB in the first round and pay him some money and see how long Eli keeps his job. Accorsi isn't there any more to protect/force feed Eli so he's going to have to improve. An established veteran will be brought in next year to help motivate him (if I had to bet). Jared Lorenzan is a nice "we'll never bench the starter" backup but Eli better hope someone with any ability at all doesn't sign on.

 

[lobo]

Throwing stats, wins, losses, etc. out the window.



I would hope Kurt Warner comes to camp next year and brings his A game. I hope he challenges Leinart for the starting spot. Coach Whiz preaches competition and I think Warner putting some pressure on Leinart will be a positive thing in the maturation of Matt Leinart.

Agree 100%. The keener the compeition the better Matt is going to turn out. Interesting to see how some the the Salge Rosenfels, Matt Schaubs sat back and took it in and when their turn came up the results have been terrific. Even a Todd Collins came off the bench and has looked good. Sometimes throwing a guy into mix prematurely (see Miami Dolphins) you may screw a guy up forever...the Miami situation has to get played out but has started very poorly. I doubt Parcells would allow a coach to throw a QB not ready into the fire.

Are there exceptions, of course there are, but when you look at the overall quality of QB's in the league it ain't too great. As defenses get better, bigger and faster it becomes more difficult for a guy to face 11 fast defenders whom he NEVER saw on a field at once during his college career. The game becomes manageable when the game "slows down" for a QB. Oh by the way Tony Romo sat for what, three or four years!!

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's all about perception. Look at the 7-7 or worse teams in the league and what their QB's did this year. Brees is the only one who has put up clearly better numbers than Warner. Cutler's rated a little higher. Everyone else is below Warner.

Buffalo
Houston
New Orleans
Washington
Carolina
Denver
Detroit
Philadelphia
Chicago
Cincinnati
Baltimore
Kansas City
Oakland
San Francisco
Atlanta
NYJ
St.Louis
Miami

Warner deserves a fair shot at starting next year.

a starter who's 3 and 6, with a TD:Turnover ratio of 12:18 had his shot when the franchise QB went down and blew it. We know we what get with Warner. Lots of yards, lots of turnovers, a decent amount of TDs and very few wins. It's time to see what the kid's got.

 

[moklerman]

It's time to see what the kid's got.

He's been HANDED the keys twice already! Let's see what the kid can "earn". Quit cherry-picking stat's to further your agenda.

I'll even make you a deal. If you truly believe that the "team's" won/loss record is a QB stat, I promise not to address any of your posts and just put you on "ignore".

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I kind of hope we cut Warner so moklerman can join This_Guy on the NFL color analyst message board where they can discuss who has the better commentary between Shaun King and Kurt.

 

[moklerman]

I kinda hope Warner starts for a team that has a solid o-line and a little discipline and a coach that isn't force feeding a system on a team that doesn't have the personnel to run it.

I hope your remark gets you the kewl points with your buddies that you hoped for.

 

[Cheesebeef]

He's been HANDED the keys twice already! Let's see what the kid can "earn". Quit cherry-picking stat's to further your agenda.

uh, are those not his stats as a starter? Hell, even his stats overall are still a 1:1 TD:Turnover ratio, which is awful, especially for a veteran. And he wasn't handed anything his first year. Warner was so godawful that he was killing us and Denny had no choice but to throw the kid to the fire. Then, in his second year, he looked pretty shaky, but he never got a chance to have a full season as a stater to see what he's got like most young QBs need to evaluate them.

I'll even make you a deal. If you truly believe that the "team's" won/loss record is a QB stat, I promise not to address any of your posts and just put you on "ignore".

I'm pretty sure I never said won/loss record was a QB stat, just mentioned it alongside the other bad stats this year, which interestingly enough match up to Warner's numbers across the board ever since he got here... lots of yards... lots of turnovers... very few wins. I'm not sure why you take such personal offense about what I say about someone who has nothing to do with you, but since you do, why don't you just put me on ignore anyway? Again, I'm not saying anything personal about YOU, I just believe that more often than not a QB who turns the ball over at the rate Warner does makes it incredibly difficult to win on a regular basis, no matter what is going on with the rest of the team.

 

[moklerman]

uh, are those not his stats as a starter?

Yes, and it's cherry picking. Warner's role in the Cardinals early season success was very influential and wouldn't show up on "his" w/l record.

Hell, even his stats overall are still a 1:1

Actually, they're better than 1:1 (22:21) and if you've watched the games you know a few of those were flukish at best. The INT that clearly wasn't to end the game, the snap over the head fumble, the James fumbled handoff as he was getting sacked, the TE two hands on the ball popup INT, etc. He has made some really bad reads/throws but you choose to focus on the bottom line because you don't like him.

And he wasn't handed anything his first year.

So he worked/earned his way to the playing field? He inheritied it. He was bequeethed(sp?). He was annointed. Pick whatever you want. He didn't earn it.

Then, in his second year, he looked pretty shaky, but he never got a chance to have a full season as a stater to see what he's got like most young QBs need to evaluate them.

So, he's had the job twice and been injured twice. He hasn't taken advantage two times now. That's what I've been saying.

I'm pretty sure I never said won/loss record was a QB stat,

...give me a break. At least stick to your guns.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I cant imagine anyone bashing Warner for what he did this year one armed. Prediction: he will be better with 1 arm than Leinart with two. I think we saw the real Leinart when he was out there and it wasnt promising at all.

I cant imagine anyone bashing warner for what he did this year. But then the Whiz worship has gone wild so anything can be expected. Ive read fitz sucks, Boldin sucks, warner sucks, James sucks, Hood sucks, Breaton is God, Dansby is a hall of famer, Whiz needs time to learn how to get calls in under 45 seconds even though he has been doing for over a decade.

Its all backwards to me but hey I am in the vast minority so if you are to just better not to provide your opinion as Ive been learning.

 

[jefftheshark]

I kind of hope we cut Warner so moklerman can join This_Guy on the NFL color analyst message board where they can discuss who has the better commentary between Shaun King and Kurt.

I have never understood people who are fans of an individual, rather than a fan of the team.

I was a huge fan of Plummer when he was at ASU and with the Cards, however when Jake went to the Broncos, I never thought once about becoming a Donkey fan.

I would think that if I was to have gone onto a Bronco message board and extolled the virtues of Jake Plummer, I probably would have been quickly shown the door. (Note: MM, please do not take this as an opening to compare Plummer v. Warner, I know who would be on the shorter end of that stick)

But feel free to carry on MM. You do a very good job of coming to Warner's defense. But I have to admit, I really don't get where you are coming from when you seem to take criticism of Warner as a personal attack.

JTS

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, and it's cherry picking. Warner's role in the Cardinals early season success was very influential and wouldn't show up on "his" w/l record.

like I and many others here have said multiple times, a little of Warner is better than a lot of Warner. That's my opinion and watching this and any other season play out during his time on the Cards bears that truth.

Actually, they're better than 1:1 (22:21)

you're right. I forgot about the rushing TD... and 22:21 is STILL a pathetic ratio, especially considering that the 21 turnovers (3rd worst in the league) have come in so fewer pass attempts (130ish I believe) than the guys who are number 1 and 2 in turnover with one and two more total.

and if you've watched the games you know a few of those were flukish at best. The INT that clearly wasn't to end the game, the snap over the head fumble, the James fumbled handoff as he was getting sacked, the TE two hands on the ball popup INT, etc. He has made some really bad reads/throws but you choose to focus on the bottom line because you don't like him.

that's because the bottom line is usually what matters. For ever INT that "wasn't", there was another that's dropped, for every fumble that "wasn't his fault", there's a Hail Mary to Fitz or Boldin busting 4 tackles on the way to the endzone and on and on and on. Excuses are nothing more than that. In the grand scheme of the NFL season, you are what you're stats say you are. There's breaks every which way in the NFL and to argue otherwise just doesn't make sense to me.

Again, you try to make this a personal thing between me and you and Warner. It's not personal. I have a lot of respect for Warner's good deeds and his warrior mentality. I just think he's gonna make more killer mistakes more often than not which good teams can't have happen.

So he worked/earned his way to the playing field? He inheritied it. He was bequeethed(sp?). He was annointed. Pick whatever you want. He didn't earn it.
So, he's had the job twice and been injured twice. He hasn't taken advantage two times now. That's what I've been saying.

expecting a rookie to come out guns blazing when the starter has been so horrific that he's benched with 5 games isn't realistic. What was he supposed to take advantage of last season besides experience? And again, I admitted Leinart looked pretty shaky, but again, young QBs need time to see if they develop and that means a full second year. He didn't get that this year, which is why I believe THE TEAM needs him to get it next year. There's no future with Warner. What you see is what you get. A QB that throws for a lot of yards, has a lot of turnovers and leads you to very few wins. We've seen that story... FOR YEARS WITH THIS TEAM. It's time to give the kid one more shot.

...give me a break. At least stick to your guns.

no need to get testy. Again, show me where I said that wins/losses is a QB stat, as opposed to it being part of the larger scheme of things that makes me want to see our young QB in there rather than Warner. No need to take this personal. I'm not talking about YOU. I'm talking about a football player. Again, if you don't like what I'm saying, just put me on ignore, but I'm not gonna get baited into a flame war by telling you you don't watch games or you're lying about what you've previously said. That's your game, not mine.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have never understood people who are fans of an individual, rather than a fan of the team.

I was a huge fan of Plummer when he was at ASU and with the Cards, however when Jake went to the Broncos, I never thought once about becoming a Donkey fan.

I would think that if I was to have gone onto a Bronco message board and extolled the virtues of Jake Plummer, I probably would have been quickly shown the door. (Note: MM, please do not take this as an opening to compare Plummer v. Warner, I know who would be on the shorter end of that stick)

But feel free to carry on MM. You do a very good job of coming to Warner's defense. But I have to admit, I really don't get where you are coming from when you seem to take criticism of Warner as a personal attack.

JTS

agreed.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I cant imagine anyone bashing Warner for what he did this year one armed.

calling a spade a spade isn't bashing. Warner's a mediocre QB now... and he has been for 5 years. Just because we've watched crap for years, doesn't mean we should settle for mediocre.

 

[cardsfanmd]

I cant imagine anyone bashing Warner for what he did this year one armed. .

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!! We have finally agreed on something. Well said, comrade.

 

[Darth Llama]

I have never understood people who are fans of an individual, rather than a fan of the team.

I was a huge fan of Plummer when he was at ASU and with the Cards, however when Jake went to the Broncos, I never thought once about becoming a Donkey fan.

I would think that if I was to have gone onto a Bronco message board and extolled the virtues of Jake Plummer, I probably would have been quickly shown the door. (Note: MM, please do not take this as an opening to compare Plummer v. Warner, I know who would be on the shorter end of that stick)

But feel free to carry on MM. You do a very good job of coming to Warner's defense. But I have to admit, I really don't get where you are coming from when you seem to take criticism of Warner as a personal attack.

JTS

I agree completely. It was different for me since I actually like Denver, so I did root for Jake over there on the side, but overall, I totally agree with you. I'm a fan of the Arizona Cardinals, I'm not here for one player and I never have been. If you go to the official Cardinal Forum, all it is is the "Kurt Warner Fan Club" and if you say anything that even remotely sounds impartial their posters tear you apart. There seems to be a growing attitude of fans feeling they need to either get behind Kurt or get behind Matt. How about we just get behind the Cardinals, let the coach decide who starts and then support that player and the rest of the team? Would that really be so damn hard? Don't get me wrong, I'm all for dialogue and people sharing their opinion on who SHOULD start, that's what these forums are all about, but it's just ridiculous when you post a criticism of a player and someone reads it as a personal attack on themselves.

 

[Cheesebeef]

but it's just ridiculous when you post a criticism of a player and someone reads it as a personal attack on themselves.

same goes for those who take criticism of the FO as personal attacks on themselves. I never understood that either.

 

[Darth Llama]

same goes for those who take criticism of the FO as personal attacks on themselves. I never understood that either.

Completely agreed sir.

Attacking ideas is one thing, attacking the person posting that idea is childish.


*Disclaimer: Unless you're Gee.. then it's actually kinda funny.

 

[High Stakes]

It's all about perception. Look at the 7-7 or worse teams in the league and what their QB's did this year. Brees is the only one who has put up clearly better numbers than Warner. Cutler's rated a little higher. Everyone else is below Warner.

Buffalo
Houston
New Orleans
Washington
Carolina
Denver
Detroit
Philadelphia
Chicago
Cincinnati
Baltimore
Kansas City
Oakland
San Francisco
Atlanta
NYJ
St.Louis
Miami

Warner deserves a fair shot at starting next year.

i would rather have sage/shaub...bulger...smith...palmer...mcnabb...campbell...or trent edwards....

 

[Chopper0080]

My opinion in this matter is truley based on the principle that my expectations of our QB are very high. I dislike the idea of having a QB that we have seen the best of and it wasn't with our team. I look back to when we brought in Emmitt Smith and I think that this situation reflects our situation with Kurt Warner is some ways. When Emmitt came in we needed to upgrade the RB position and we knew that we were taking a vet to get an immediate upgrade but also that he wasn't the long term answer. I see the same situation with Warner. We brought him in to make us immediately better and I would say that he has. However, we have seen where Warner will lead us and that is a chance at a 8-8 season. Unlike Emmitt situation we have brought in a player (Leinart) that has the potential to be better than the veteran we brought in (Warner). I am not satisfied with 8-8 and if it takes us starting Leinart to potentially be better than 8-8 I say that we are obligated to find out what we have. Is there a chance that he busts and leads us to losing records the next couple years, yes there is. I haven't seen anything from Leinart to believe that this isn't a possiblity. But I would rather risk that than see and expect an average team for the next couple years.

I want the playoffs. I want the Super Bowl. I want a dynasty. I know that I won't get this from Warner and the mere possiblity of achieving these goals with Leinart makes me believe that he needs to be the man.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's all about perception. Look at the 7-7 or worse teams in the league and what their QB's did this year. Brees is the only one who has put up clearly better numbers than Warner. Cutler's rated a little higher. Everyone else is below Warner.

Buffalo
Houston
New Orleans
Washington
Carolina
Denver
Detroit
Philadelphia
Chicago
Cincinnati
Baltimore
Kansas City
Oakland
San Francisco
Atlanta
NYJ
St.Louis
Miami

Warner deserves a fair shot at starting next year.

Cutler is a 2 year guy and Buffalo had a rookie starting almost half the year.

You keep overlooking that kurt isn't a young QB he's not going to suddenly cut down his turnovers.

 

[Russ Smith]

He's been HANDED the keys twice already! Let's see what the kid can "earn". Quit cherry-picking stat's to further your agenda.

I'll even make you a deal. If you truly believe that the "team's" won/loss record is a QB stat, I promise not to address any of your posts and just put you on "ignore".

He was handed the job as a rookie for one reason, because Warner's turnovers were killing the team. Warner got to play again this year due to Leinart's injury and again, turnovers.

Why would we expect next year to be any different?

 

[moklerman]

Here's something else to chew on. Warner has 86 pass attempts(out of 360 total) while the Cardinals were actually leading.

I'm pretty sure I never said won/loss record was a QB stat,

Here's just one example:

a starter who's 3 and 6

I have never understood people who are fans of an individual, rather than a fan of the team.

You may agree with it, but surely you can understand it? I'm a fan of Warner because I can identify with an individual and their accomplishments and approach to the game. I could ask you the same question. Why are you a fan of the Cardinals? Is proximity enough to devote yourself? Team colors? Logo? I bet there's more about this team over the last few years that you dislike than you like.

But I have to admit, I really don't get where you are coming from when you seem to take criticism of Warner as a personal attack.

I can tell you. Your imagination. The only thing I've taken personally is the condescension for being a Warner fan.

and 22:21 is STILL a pathetic ratio

You sure have high standards. He's 13th in the league in turnover ratio. What's acceptable to you?

especially considering that the 21 turnovers (3rd worst in the league) have come in so fewer pass attempts

He's also 5th in TD% and ALWAYS playing from behind in predictable situations. I'd like to see him playing with a lead and a running game. Just to see how he looks.

There's breaks every which way in the NFL and to argue otherwise just doesn't make sense to me.

Because it doesn't fit your argument. You've based your whole argument on turnover ratio and % but when circumstances are brought up you refuse to listen. Is there a single QB in the league who's lost 3 TD opportunities with gimmicks? Or fewer breakaway TD's? How many times has a receiver turned a 10 yard pass into a long TD for the Cardinals this year? Rarely.

expecting a rookie to come out guns blazing when the starter has been so horrific that he's benched with 5 games isn't realistic.

Player of the week, 1 mediocre game and 1 bad game is hardly horrific. Regardless of how he was inserted, your "give the kid a chance" implies that he hasn't had opportunities. I'm all for letting the better QB win in preseason but it isn't like Leinart hasn't had an opportunity to play, perform and stay healthy.

no need to get testy. Again, show me where I said that wins/losses is a QB stat, as opposed to it being part of the larger scheme of things that makes me want to see our young QB in there rather than Warner.

You've posted many times "his" record as starter as an indicator of something or other. I don't take your reference personally at all. I think you're stretching the truth but I don't take it personally that you're using a team statistic to illustrate personal performance/ability.

you're lying about what you've previously said. That's your game, not mine.

It's not a game, I've already posted one instance of it. Don't try and turn it around on me like I'm accusing you of something you didn't do.

calling a spade a spade isn't bashing. Warner's a mediocre QB now... and he has been for 5 years. Just because we've watched crap for years, doesn't mean we should settle for mediocre.

No, but having unrealistic expectations isn't right either. Warner's numbers aren't mediocre either. The NFL...N--F--L uses the passer rating to grade QB's. Warner is number 11. That isn't mediocre. It is also an improvement over the last couple of years on a team that hasn't improved much in other areas.

I cant imagine anyone bashing Warner for what he did this year one armed.

I agree.

i would rather have sage/shaub...bulger...smith...palmer...mcnabb...campbel l...or trent edwards....

None of whom are rated as high as Warner this year. Wait, Alex Smith? Over Warner?

We brought him in to make us immediately better and I would say that he has. However, we have seen where Warner will lead us and that is a chance at a 8-8 season.

Even I'm not arguing that Warner is a long term answer but it's rare that teams, especially mediocre/bad one's, have long term play from a single QB. As far as seeing where Warner can lead the Cardinals, I don't see any particular improvement in the o-line, defense and special teams over the last 3 years. Let's wait until some of those units are actually good before declaring Warner's inability to lead.

You keep overlooking that kurt isn't a young QB he's not going to suddenly cut down his turnovers.

With better blocking, a running game, playing with a lead and healthy receivers (any or all of these things) Warner's numbers "won't" improve? Show me a team that he's been on since 2003 that had any of those things. Even Plummer's numbers jumped way up when he got support in those areas.

 

[JeffGollin]

I cant imagine anyone bashing Warner for what he did this year one armed. .
We're dealing with three separate though related issues here.

1.WARNER'S GRIT
Most QB's with that kind of injury would have packed it in for the rest of the season.

2. WARNER'S TALENT
He proved that he can still be streaky good and put up pretty impressive numbers in a short period of time. But he also demonstrated a lack of pocket instincts, a propensity to muff snaps and put the ball on the ground when sacked and to push the envelope when it came to tight passing windows - resulting in too many interceptions. On balance, he (a) kept us competitive in nearly every game but also (b) cost us wins in about half of those.

3. WARNER AS ONE PART OF THE "CARDINAL PASSING ANIMAL"
A passing attack involves several components - including (a) pass blocking, (b) route running, (c) multiplicity of receiving threats, (d) passing accuracy, (e) receiving reliability, (f) jump ball skills, (g) the TE and RB as receiving threats, (h) arm strength, (i) pocket instincts, (j) escapability, (k) blitz pickup, (l) screen pass effectiveness, (m) "sixth sense" when a blindside sack is imminent, (n) cut blocking key pass rushers (to keep their hands down), (o) threat of the run and on and on.

Each component is interrelated with all the others. (Put Warner behind New England's or Indy's pass blockers and issues like escapability, interceptions etc. begin to melt away). But we can't push a magic button and automatically make good things happen. So what we have to ask ourselves is:

Given the talent we've got, can Warner succeed? I'm not so sure. If our pass blocking cannot improve, I have to wonder whether we'll need a QB with more mobility and a better sixth sense. Or - maybe we'll sign someone like Faneca and improve our pass blocking.

It all depends on what "The Cardinal Passing Animal" eventually looks like.

 

[slanidrac16]

God, this is getting dreadful.

I don't even know how to put this in order so I will just state a few thoughts.

1. Warner was great.
2. Warner has not come anywhere near his golden days as a Ram since he's been here, nor will he ever.
3. Warner commits more turnovers than he should for a guy with his experience.
4. Warner is courageous, a great guy and appears to be a great teammate.
5. Warner is NOT the future of this franchise.

It's funny how many Warner backers say. "Well Leinart hasn't shown much", or "Leinart hasn't proven anything".
Here's a scoop. HE'S A FRICKIN ROOKIE! Next year when he is once again our QB, there will be times he looks like ****. We will have to live with youthful mistakes until somewhere down the road the time comes where we can assess whether he has what it takes to be an NFL QB. One thing is for sure, NOBODY can come to that conclusion in the 14 or 15 games he has played.

Leinart gives us hope with his potential at becoming a top notch field general. Let's pray that he is because if he isn't, once again, this franchise will be set back a couple of years.

Bottom line, I can live with the growing pains of a rookie QB. I can no longer stand watching a veteran QB consistantly eyeballing his WR, ignoring checkdowns, throwing into double and triple coverage thinking he is still 28 years old.

 

[nashman]

It should be a competition period! Its a freakin sport you need competition and the whomever performs the best should be the starter! And then if they are having a terrible day you can try to other. Neither should be handed any job, Leinart should have to work hard and beat out the backup if he WANTS to be the starter. If he is not capable of that we need to know that also. Why this is a big deal I do not know. When you hand guys jobs you get lazy half assed efforts from those guys. Think of it this way if a teacher gave you an A before you even finished a class, are you gonna continue to work as hard as you can to acheive that A? Leinart needs to be pushed he is already kinda laid back guy.