Fire Rod Graves Now

[Arizona's Finest]

Reason #1 to fire Rod Graves. We have a better talent already on the Roster. Steve Keim. If we don't make him our GM some other smart NFL team eventually will.

Look at the two drafts 2010 and 2011 since he has been DOPP.

He'd get every free agent we want and negotiate perfect contracts for the Cards because players and their agents would be scared to death to tell him no.

Totally totally agree.

 

[40yearfan]

Reason #1 to fire Rod Graves. We have a better talent already on the Roster. Steve Keim. If we don't make him our GM some other smart NFL team eventually will.

Look at the two drafts 2010 and 2011 since he has been DOPP.

He'd get every free agent we want and negotiate perfect contracts for the Cards because players and their agents would be scared to death to tell him no.

Keim is not a bad idea. He is one of the top notch talents in the NFL for finding good players in the draft. Would that also make him a good GM as far as negotiating contracts and managing the CAP? I can't answer that.

 

[crisper57]

Thats what happens when you are the GM. Why is Elway universally deemed responsible for having PM in Denver now?

Graves just isnt good enough. If somehow the Cardinals are in the AFC, Manning is in Az no doubt. But it doesnt have to be Elway. It could be Newsome, Schnieder, or Baalke, Pioli or any number of credible smart guys who run their teams.

Its why everyone in the NFL is running from joining Miami. Jeff Ireland. Hes outright terrible. Grave is more understatedly terrible and inspires no confidence.

There you go. One GM worse then Graves for those keeping count. Anyone else.

FTFY

Also, I think the Saints have a crappy GM too. Between knowing about the bounties and jerking around his franchise QB, Graves looks downright awesome by comparison.

 

[40yearfan]

FTFY

Also, I think the Saints have a crappy GM too. Between knowing about the bounties and jerking around his franchise QB, Graves looks downright awesome by comparison.

And the way the Niners have handled Alex Smith makes you think their guy is somewhat goofy.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Thats what happens when you are the GM. Why is Elway universally deemed responsible for having PM in Denver now?

Graves just isnt good enough. If somehow the Cardinals hire Elway, Manning is in Az no doubt. But it doesnt have to be Elway. It could be Newsome, Schnieder, or Baalke, Pioli or any number of credible smart guys who run their teams.

Its why everyone in the NFL is running from joining Miami. Jeff Ireland. Hes outright terrible. Grave is more understatedly terrible and inspires no confidence.

There you go. One GM worse then Graves for those keeping count. Anyone else.

John Elway's status as a Hall of Fame QB who won a SB late in career cannot be taken out of the equation. And, by the way, Scott Pioli couldn't convince PM to take a trip to KC.

 

[Duckjake]

Keim is not a bad idea. He is one of the top notch talents in the NFL for finding good players in the draft. Would that also make him a good GM as far as negotiating contracts and managing the CAP? I can't answer that.

I can, He looks like a retired Ultimate Fighting Champion. He'd scare the hell out of people in negotiations:

 

[Cheesebeef]

the one thing people need to stop doing is lauding Rod Graves for managing the cap. In case anyone hasn't noticed, we're kind of in that "cap hell" that everyone says other teams are going to be in... and we were in the same position back in 2009 when we couldn't sign anyone in FA because Fitz's contract was choking the cap. Throw in the fact that our rookies are pretty much always the last to sign and I think all of that effectively puts the kibosh on that Graves succeeding at that aspect of his job... especially when you consider that twice in the last 4 years we've been in cap hell and only had one playoff season to show for it.

 

[chickenhead]

Graves is more emblematic of a structural problem than he is an individual problem. Frankly, he could still be a valuable part of the organization if the person with whom we hope he would be replaced were actually in the organization. Things with Michael B. at the helm have definitely been better, but there still definitely appears to be a ceiling.

I think the real hope for the Cards is that a coach becomes successful enough to want to move upstairs and hire his own replacement. Too hard to imagine someone coming in from the outside into that role.

 

[Duckjake]

the one thing people need to stop doing is lauding Rod Graves for managing the cap. In case anyone hasn't noticed, we're kind of in that "cap hell" that everyone says other teams are going to be in... and we were in the same position back in 2009 when we couldn't sign anyone in FA because Fitz's contract was choking the cap. Throw in the fact that our rookies are pretty much always the last to sign and I think all of that effectively puts the kibosh on that Graves succeeding at that aspect of his job... especially when you consider that twice in the last 4 years we've been in cap hell and only had one playoff season to show for it.

When the defenses of criticism are rationalizations and excuses instead of plaudits and praise it is a fairly good indication that the critics are correct.

This is very similar to the Kolb debate actually.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

the one thing people need to stop doing is lauding Rod Graves for managing the cap. In case anyone hasn't noticed, we're kind of in that "cap hell" that everyone says other teams are going to be in... and we were in the same position back in 2009 when we couldn't sign anyone in FA because Fitz's contract was choking the cap. Throw in the fact that our rookies are pretty much always the last to sign and I think all of that effectively puts the kibosh on that Graves succeeding at that aspect of his job... especially when you consider that twice in the last 4 years we've been in cap hell and only had one playoff season to show for it.

Its not just that. Does anyone else remember any other team having a contract situation like Fitz? Where he had ALL the leverage, we couldnt franchise him, and we had to redo his longer deal much sooner then anticpated?

The Raider with Ashmougha is the only other one I can think of and they shouldnt be the model. The Kevin Kolb accelerators were ridiculous as well. If you are going to giv him that much money, at least back load it.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

When the defenses of criticism are rationalizations and excuses instead of plaudits and praise it is a fairly good indication that the critics are correct.

This is very similar to the Kolb debate actually.

Exactly.

Excpet for that last part where I sit on the other side of the table from you

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Like DJ said, the most important part is we have a stud GM back up (IMO) in Kiem and we are going to eventually lose him.....and for what keeping Graves longer?

 

[jmt]

Was waa waa!

 

[Cheesebeef]

the reason that I've stopped really harping on all this though is that the bottom line is... it's not going to change. It sucks, but it is what it is.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

the one thing people need to stop doing is lauding Rod Graves for managing the cap. In case anyone hasn't noticed, we're kind of in that "cap hell" that everyone says other teams are going to be in... and we were in the same position back in 2009 when we couldn't sign anyone in FA because Fitz's contract was choking the cap. Throw in the fact that our rookies are pretty much always the last to sign and I think all of that effectively puts the kibosh on that Graves succeeding at that aspect of his job... especially when you consider that twice in the last 4 years we've been in cap hell and only had one playoff season to show for it.

Please! You lead the charge of complaints that we didn't spend $30M in the year leading up to new CBA, and went on and on about not spending the $7M leftover from last season, which in fact turned out to be $1.5M. Too little one year, too much the next... Whatever suits your argument.

 

[pinetopred]

Like DJ said, the most important part is we have a stud GM back up (IMO) in Kiem and we are going to eventually lose him.....and for what keeping Graves longer?

JMO but if Kiem is the stud GM of the future wouldn't it make sense that he has some input in personel moves in FA and not just the draft and with that line of thinking some of the decisions that people are blaming Graves for could also very well be Kiem's decisions on talent?

 

[Phrazbit]

I dont think Graves cost us Manning, I think the AFC was probably the swing factor.

However, how anyone can defend the way Graves structures contracts is beyond me. There was a long debate over the Kolb vs Flynn contracts just 2 days ago and I couldnt believe how many people were defending Graves. Flynn is on the open market and gets less than half of what Kolb got while the Cards were exclusive negotiators.

We have had bad contracts kill this team the last few years, and at the same time we've had guys leave because our front office is too inept to get a deal done and drags their damn feet (for 3 years in Dansby's situation). So we've seen high profile boneheaded negotiations with Kolb, Fitz, Warner, Dansby and Boldin just in the last few years.

Seriously, the guy is annihilating the teams cap space and we seemingly lose a pro-bowler every other season because of flat out ineptitude. How can anyone defend him?

 

[PACardsFan]

Reason #1 to fire Rod Graves. We have a better talent already on the Roster. Steve Keim. If we don't make him our GM some other smart NFL team eventually will.

Look at the two drafts 2010 and 2011 since he has been DOPP.

He'd get every free agent we want and negotiate perfect contracts for the Cards because players and their agents would be scared to death to tell him no.

You're absolutely correct about Keim. I hope to God the Bidwill's are grooming him to take over VERY, VERY soon!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Please! You lead the charge of complaints that we didn't spend $30M in the year leading up to new CBA, and went on and on about not spending the $7M leftover from last season, which in fact turned out to be $1.5M. Too little one year, too much the next... Whatever suits your argument.

did I say that we have that problem EVERY YEAR? No. I said we've had it twice in four years so you can't even make the argument that he keeps us out of cap hell either. not really sure how that doesn't jive with what I railed about earlier.

my argument is simply that Graves really doesn't do much well and even doesn't manage the cap well as evidenced by us being in cap hell in two of the last four years. The fact that we did pretty much NOTHING in one year outside of that and then spent like drunken sailors on so-far complete busts the next (while this season letting go of the one bona-fide success story in Marshall) does nothing to really change my argument.

can you seriously tell me that a team that has been in cap hell two of the last four years, while making the playoffs only once during that time has managed it's cap well?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

JMO but if Kiem is the stud GM of the future wouldn't it make sense that he has some input in personel moves in FA and not just the draft and with that line of thinking some of the decisions that people are blaming Graves for could also very well be Kiem's decisions on talent?

How can I make this more clear. Graves is costing us with contract structure, negotiations, and (this one IMO) being the charasmatic leader who gets FA's to want to come here. Drafting and personnel in my humble opinion have been pretty good, including what I think was a lot of good signigns last year in FA (Panther TE I am forgetting, Marshall, Steelers NT, Colledge) and a couple (Bradley and Heap) that still may pay off.

Personnel evaluation isn't the problem. Its the management of those guys from initally engaging them, to negotiating, to the contracts that are set up. Thats Graves role.

Damn I wouldnt be surprised if Colledge has a 50 million escalator that kicks in next year on March 3rd. Just a stupid way to do business.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Seriously, the guy is annihilating the teams cap space and we seemingly lose a pro-bowler every other season because of flat out ineptitude. How can anyone defend him?

Ding Ding Ding.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Whisenhunt and his coaching staff makes the player decisions. He tells Graves who he wants. Graves then talks to Bidwill Jr. .Bidwill Jr. then talks to his dad who still is the one holding the major bucks to give out. Then Jr. gets back to Graves and every thing has to probably be relayed back to dad. Before, signings took a while because Bidwill Sr. moved slow, now they move slow because it would appear that though Jr. runs the team...he has to verify all money and decisions with his dad. It is a long roll of Cardinal red tape, and Graves must have a very difficult position taking what Whis wants, what Jr. approves of and then getting the old man to provide the money.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I dont think Graves cost us Manning, I think the AFC was probably the swing factor.

However, how anyone can defend the way Graves structures contracts is beyond me. There was a long debate over the Kolb vs Flynn contracts just 2 days ago and I couldnt believe how many people were defending Graves. Flynn is on the open market and gets less than half of what Kolb got while the Cards were exclusive negotiators.

We have had bad contracts kill this team the last few years, and at the same time we've had guys leave because our front office is too inept to get a deal done and drags their damn feet (for 3 years in Dansby's situation). So we've seen high profile boneheaded negotiations with Kolb, Fitz, Warner, Dansby and Boldin just in the last few years.

Seriously, the guy is annihilating the teams cap space and we seemingly lose a pro-bowler every other season because of flat out ineptitude. How can anyone defend him?

Kolb was an extension of his deal with Philly locking hin in for 6 years at a max of $10M per year. Good price for a starting QB. But, just in case it didn't work out the team negotiated an easy out after two years, which would cost $21M in total. The whole FO and HC bought into this commitment.

Dansby, from day one, demanded OLB money after seeing what Pace got in NY. Franchising him twice speaks to the fact that they wanted to keep him. Not at his price but their's. The final offer was similar to Miami's and Karlos simply decided to move on.

Boldin wanted number one $$$ and Warner wanted to be the highest paid QB. That the Cards did not fall over themselves to meet these demands is hardly surprising. Warner came back for good coin and the Boldin trade was instrumental in getting Rhodes, and more important, DWash.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Whisenhunt and his coaching staff makes the player decisions. He tells Graves who he wants. Graves then talks to Bidwill Jr. .Bidwill Jr. then talks to his dad who still is the one holding the major bucks to give out. Then Jr. gets back to Graves and every thing has to probably be relayed back to dad. Before, signings took a while because Bidwill Sr. moved slow, now they move slow because it would appear that though Jr. runs the team...he has to verify all money and decisions with his dad. It is a long roll of Cardinal red tape, and Graves must have a very difficult position taking what Whis wants, what Jr. approves of and then getting the old man to provide the money.

Yeah but its Graves structuring the RIDICULOUS contracts. Lets say Peyton eventually comes out and says "I was highly considereing Az but the timeline with their current roster didnt give enough time"....This will never happen because Peyton wouldnt say it even if it was true but lets play what if.

The fan base would KILL Kevin Kolb. I mean excoriate him. And how does that make sense?

They should be killing the guy who STRUCTURED the contract. Yeah maybe Peyton was never coming here. But that stupid contract didnt help AT ALL. And less will agree with me on this but not having a Elway type in FO that made PM comfortable I think would have helped as well.

 

[joeshmo]

I can, He looks like a retired Ultimate Fighting Champion. He'd scare the hell out of people in negotiations:

Considering most contracts are negotiated over the phone, I highly doubt his stature does anything for his negotiating skills. Not sure of his ability to scout current NFL talent as well. But sometimes yo have to take that leap with first time GM's, none of them will have a full set of skills their to start with.

Graves is not your typical GM. He doesn't do much scouting. He delegates, he lets Kiem scout the NCAA, and he lets McCreight scout the NFL. Those guys then work with the coaches to come up with a list of talent they want.

If you don't like the free agent talent we bring in you can blame that on the coaches and McCreight misjudging current NFL talent.

But you can blame Graves for his horrible ability with negotiating contracts. The one job he has taken on first hand he is failing at. Not sure how that part of his job can be defended???