Fire Rod Graves Now

[Arizona's Finest]

I know this isn't an original thought. I know its the opnion held by the vast majority of Cardinals fans and I am not breaking new ground here. Not exaclty being original.

But its the truth now more then ever. Think about the events of the past two weeks.

Let me start by saying that I am over Peyton Manning and ready to move on. Congrats to Broncos fans. But here is where good ol Rod cost us the franchise changing FA we needed to have from a perception perspective.

1) Mannings actions seemed to say that the two teams he had the most comfortable ties with are Denver and Arizona. Thats where this all started and obviously first impressions were key in this scenario. I maintain of all coaches currently in the NFL, Wiz made the most sense from a temprement and familarity perspective. John Fox would be a close second.

So what did Fox have that Wiz didn't. John Elway.

I am not saying we need to hire a HOF QB to run our orgranization. But where Arizona didnt captalize was in this hierarchy:

Bowlen
Elway
Fox

Mike Bidwill
Graves
Wiz

If it wasnt Elway, it would have been some other dynamic GM like John Schnieder or Trent Baalke that would have swept in. Ruston Webster is much more accomplished as well.

And we have Rod Freaking Graves.

Even one of his biggest defenders out there want to tell me they think Peyton came away with a positive impression of Rod when he visited Tempe? We know Peyton likes Wiz and can assume Mike B showed well, considering the stakes. ANyone else have that same feeling about Graves? I am not placing all the blame on him, but its obvious the Broncos dynamic front office leader played a big role. How long are we going to live with this disadvantage?

2) And even more damning and maybe the real reason we didn't get PM:

Kevin Kolbs contract.

His structuring of contracts and how he gets destroyed in most every negotiation. Think about it: Why and How is that we are paying 19 million to Kolb in the first two years? Di dwe have THAT low of leverage last year? I get some of the factors that play into Flynn being 3 yrs 26 million this year, and Kolb at 5 years 60 million or so last year but THAT much difference? Really? And why not spread out more? What is with these contracts they set up that put us in BAD spots. Think about if Levi was a Joe Thomas level player? We would have HAD to pay that 15.6 million or restrucutre and at that point, Team Levi has all the leverege. or with Fitz. That is unprecedented. I love Fitz but because of Graves inability to negotiate he has taken the Cardinals to the cleaners for 3 life changing contracts. And he in line for one more. Most players if lucky get 2!

How does this happen? How does this man stay in charge like this? It is well document he handles all negotiations, contracts, etc. Player personnel has been great recently because of Kiem and McCreight being focused in that area. ANd Graves was taken out. Now all he has is beign a face of the organzation (has anyone ever heard him say ANYTHING impressive) and negotiating contracts and he sucks at both.

I listen to guys like Schnieder, and Elway, and Ozzie Newsome, and Pioli and think - man those guys get it. I a SO jealous of these guys because its been what like 10 years since we had a strong FO leader? Maybe Bob Ferguson?

Well Mike you upgraded the talent to never previous seen Cardinal levels. You upgraded the Stadium to never previously seen levels. You (finally) upgraded the coaching to never before seen Cardinal levels.

Next up?

The GM. Make it so. We need this change to make the next step as a franchise and deep down I think Mike B knows it too.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Even worse, if he really has little say in personnel, and is just focused on contracts, he does a putrid job at that.

 

[john h]

I know this isn't an original thought. I know its the opnion held by the vast majority of Cardinals fans and I am not breaking new ground here. Not exaclty being original.

But its the truth now more then ever. Think about the events of the past two weeks.

Let me start by saying that I am over Peyton Manning and ready to move on. Congrats to Broncos fans. But here is where good ol Rod cost us the franchise changing FA we needed to have from a perception perspective.

1) Mannings actions seemed to say that the two teams he had the most comfortable ties with are Denver and Arizona. Thats where this all started and obviously first impressions were key in this scenario. I maintain of all coaches currently in the NFL, Wiz made the most sense from a temprement and familarity perspective. John Fox would be a close second.

So what did Fox have that Wiz didn't. John Elway.

I am not saying we need to hire a HOF QB to run our orgranization. But where Arizona didnt captalize was in this hierarchy:

Bowlen
Elway
Fox

Mike Bidwill
Graves
Wiz

If it wasnt Elway, it would have been some other dynamic GM like John Schnieder or Trent Baalke that would have swept in. Ruston Webster is much more accomplished as well.

And we have Rod Freaking Graves.

Even one of his biggest defenders out there want to tell me they think Peyton came away with a positive impression of Rod when he visited Tempe? We know Peyton likes Wiz and can assume Mike B showed well, considering the stakes. ANyone else have that same feeling about Graves? I am not placing all the blame on him, but its obvious the Broncos dynamic front office leader played a big role. How long are we going to live with this disadvantage?

2) And even more damning and maybe the real reason we didn't get PM:

Kevin Kolbs contract.

His structuring of contracts and how he gets destroyed in most every negotiation. Think about it: Why and How is that we are paying 19 million to Kolb in the first two years? Di dwe have THAT low of leverage last year? I get some of the factors that play into Flynn being 3 yrs 26 million this year, and Kolb at 5 years 60 million or so last year but THAT much difference? Really? And why not spread out more? What is with these contracts they set up that put us in BAD spots. Think about if Levi was a Joe Thomas level player? We would have HAD to pay that 15.6 million or restrucutre and at that point, Team Levi has all the leverege. or with Fitz. That is unprecedented. I love Fitz but because of Graves inability to negotiate he has taken the Cardinals to the cleaners for 3 life changing contracts. And he in line for one more. Most players if lucky get 2!

How does this happen? How does this man stay in charge like this? It is well document he handles all negotiations, contracts, etc. Player personnel has been great recently because of Kiem and McCreight being focused in that area. ANd Graves was taken out. Now all he has is beign a face of the organzation (has anyone ever heard him say ANYTHING impressive) and negotiating contracts and he sucks at both.

I listen to guys like Schnieder, and Elway, and Ozzie Newsome, and Pioli and think - man those guys get it. I a SO jealous of these guys because its been what like 10 years since we had a strong FO leader? Maybe Bob Ferguson?

Well Mike you upgraded the talent to never previous seen Cardinal levels. You upgraded the Stadium to never previously seen levels. You (finally) upgraded the coaching to never before seen Cardinal levels.

Next up?

The GM. Make it so. We need this change to make the next step as a franchise and deep down I think Mike B knows it too.

I was listening to one of the major NFL talk shows this morning. They were commenting on where Tebow might go or where he would fit. One of the commentators said Arizona would be a good place as he would surely be an improvement over Kevin Kolb. The other commentator said he sure agreed with that. They though Tebow would go for a second round pick the same pick we gave away as part of the Kolb deal. They agreed that Tebow would be picked up possible as a starter or possible as a backup. They even mentioned New England as a backup QB for Tebow. I wonder what the Niners QB is going to do? He has to be sort of angry knowing his team was really trying to get Manning. I think he is a FA is he not? We could have had him a couple of years ago for a cheap price but who knew he would suddenly develop into a QB who would go 13-3?

Who will start for us this year? Kolb or Skelton? What if Kolb su--s? What if they both su--?
I think we need one QB on this team who has at one time proven he can play QB in the NFL. We are starting the season with two QB's who are basically unproven? That is a recipe for disaster. Yes Graves should have been given his walking papers many years ago. Apparently he and Mr. B have some infatuation with each other. Maybe he has a lifetime contract? Does anyone know what kind of contract he does have?

 

[Gee!]

Peyton chose the AFC. Graves couldn't do anything about that.

 

[40yearfan]

We do have a strong FO leader. His name is Mike Bidwill and he owns the organization. If you think he is going to go out and hire a stong GM and turn the reins over to him, you have not been a Cardinal fan for very long.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Actually the Cards lost PM when Graves farted during their lunch break. True, I tell you - pass it on, pass it on.

 

[TJ]

If we had a slick GM like Ozzie Newsome, this franchise would be a perennial winner. I do think Graves gets taken to the woodshed in many negotiations. For example, negotiating and structuring first-round draft picks. On top of these contracts favoring the player drastically, he hasn't had a first rounder report to camp on time since 2003.

I did not think we were going to get Manning because of the limited cap space with which we had to work. We had about $1-$2 million, while teams like Tennessee, SF, and Denver had anywhere between $18-$40 million. You could get very creative with a contract with that type of room and still have Peyton's buddies, like Clark and Saturday, join in a package deal. The Cards would have had to cut or renegotiate a good amount of players just to structure the contract, based on the figures divulged today.

The team does spend money. I hope the notion that the FO is cheap is dispelled. It's the matter in which they spend and use cap that is the problem.

I wonder if at least Keim were the primary decision maker that some of these deals would be structured better. As it stands, we don't have that first-tier GM to help the coaching staff recruit players and negotiate team friendly contracts.

 

[crisper57]

If anyone whines about Peyton Manning choosing Denver and then uses it to bash Graves, they've lost all credibility IMO. Sometimes, you aren't given the opportunity to close a deal. You need a willing partner. If Fitz and Whiz weren't enough to do it, Graves certainly wasn't going to put us over the finish line.

These are probably the same people who bash the Cards for not trading down in the draft, even though there were no other willing teams. Some people act like we can unilaterally reshape the power structure of the NFL.

This is in no way a defense of Graves, but blaming him for things beyond his control is irrational at best.

 

[Mainstreet]

There are a lot better reasons for wanting to fire Graves other than PM and Kevin Kolb. In PM you can't lose something you never had. Although the Cardinals overpaid for Kevin Kolb, the Cardinals went hard after what they thought was the missing link at the time.

 

[Mainstreet]

We do have a strong FO leader. His name is Mike Bidwill and he owns the organization. If you think he is going to go out and hire a stong GM and turn the reins over to him, you have not been a Cardinal fan for very long.

This comment reminds me of the front office hires by Robert Sarver of the Suns.

 

[Solar7]

While you'll never catch me saying that Rod Graves is a great GM, I feel like he doesn't get a lot of credit for good things that he has done for the organization. Maybe I'm not giving Dennis Green or Whisenhunt enough credit for holding things together, but Graves did put us in position to have the talent level to make it to a Super Bowl, and hire the winningest coach in franchise history.

The Kolb situation is an interesting scenario, and it all depends on perspective. It was agreed that he had quite a bit of potential, and that presumably, he could become a solid starter elsewhere. Many people will say that we bid against ourselves, but in all honesty, it wasn't like the Eagles were desperate to get rid of him. They were content in standing pat and utilizing him as a backup. (Which may have actually been smart of them, seeing what happened to Vick this year.) Trade compensation aside, I think we gave him too great of a contract, but the $7 million roster bonus that we could have skipped on paying at least shows we were ready to be able to cut ties with him if need be.

Ultimately, a lot of this goes back to doing whatever it took to hang on to Larry Fitzgerald. And it worked. We have the guy wrapped up through the rest of his career.

 

[crisper57]

Other Reasons to Fire Graves:

He didn't sign Mario Williams for a $5 M per year deal.
He didn't get Tom Brady or Drew Brees for $1 M per year.
He didn't draft Joe Thomas, even though he was off the board
He didn't keep the mercenaries Dansby and Rolle from leaving town.
He didn't overrule Whiz and give HOF'er Leinart a fair shake.
He kicks puppies.

 

[82CardsGrad]

If anyone whines about Peyton Manning choosing Denver and then uses it to bash Graves, they've lost all credibility IMO. Sometimes, you aren't given the opportunity to close a deal. You need a willing partner. If Fitz and Whiz weren't enough to do it, Graves certainly wasn't going to put us over the finish line.

These are probably the same people who bash the Cards for not trading down in the draft, even though there were no other willing teams. Some people act like we can unilaterally reshape the power structure of the NFL.

This is in no way a defense of Graves, but blaming him for things beyond his control is irrational at best.

Other Reasons to Fire Graves:

He didn't sign Mario Williams for a $5 M per year deal.
He didn't get Tom Brady or Drew Brees for $1 M per year.
He didn't draft Joe Thomas, even though he was off the board
He didn't keep the mercenaries Dansby and Rolle from leaving town.
He didn't overrule Whiz and give HOF'er Leinart a fair shake.
He kicks puppies.

These...

This moronity (yea - it's a word that aptly fits those who start these types of threads ) of this board never ceases to amaze me...

 

[40yearfan]

This comment reminds me of the front office hires by Robert Sarver of the Suns.

Could be, but it is the truth that not many on this board want to face. It's just easier to blame it on Graves and go off on a big rant. M. Bidwill is running this organization and Graves does what he is told to do. If you really feel like ranting, rant on Mike Bidwill.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Could be, but it is the truth that not many on this board want to face. It's just easier to blame it on Graves and go off on a big rant. M. Bidwill is running this organization and Graves does what he is told to do. If you really feel like ranting, rant on Mike Bidwill.

the thing that scares me most about Mike Bidwill is exactly you're point. He's got a strong POV and wouldn't let anyone else be a GM with a strong POV... which is ridiculous considering that Mikey isn't an accomplished football mind, which is what every good team needs at the GM position.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I am really not sure why Graves has so many apologists. Even his staunchest defender cannot single out any one great thing he has done(and is universally credited for) sinc ehe has been here. I think 40 is right, and Mike B just wants a yes man which is a damn shame. Wiz can't do it all himself.

The people who can only see simple causality with read the OP and say "AZF is saying Rod Graves cost us Peyton" and while I think thats part of it, thats not my main point at all.

This guy brings NOTHING to the table. Please anyone tell me what hes good at. Anyone. Anything. He didn't even bring in Wiz. Its well documented that was a Michael B move. Our contracts and ability to negotiate is the WORST in the NFL. I don't hear of any other teams having these precarious drop dead dates with 10s of millions in accelerators and constant inability to get someone done on a contract unless there is imeense public pressure. We are always up against the gun. Anyone want to refute Graves's biggest responsibility is contracts/negotations and explain to me why he has done a good job in this capacity?

Its a joke. I am tired of this liability. Hes single handledly undermining all the hard work done by Mike B (Spending of Money) Wiz (Coaching Team) and Kiem and the scouting department because he cant do HIS job and negotiate good fair contracts.

People want to sit here an intimate "hes not that bad"....well hes not that good. If you arent part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Its not about blaming Graves only. Its stepping up and becoming a big boy franchise.

We need a REAL GM. And if Michael doesnt believe we do and wants a yes man, why doesnt he take a look at the contracts of Fitz and Kolb, and how much having Graves in this position is COSTING him in the pocketbook.

Its ridiculous. #firerodgravesnow

Join the movement.

 

[40yearfan]

I am really not sure why Graves has so many apologists. Even his staunchest defender cannot single out any one great thing he has done(and is universally credited for) sinc ehe has been here. I think 40 is right, and Mike B just wants a yes man which is a damn shame. Wiz can't do it all himself.

The people who can only see simple causality with read the OP and say "AZF is saying Rod Graves cost us Peyton" and while I think thats part of it, thats not my main point at all.

This guy brings NOTHING to the table. Please anyone tell me what hes good at. Anyone. Anything. He didn't even bring in Wiz. Its well documented that was a Michael B move. Our contracts and ability to negotiate is the WORST in the NFL. I don't hear of any other teams having these precarious drop dead dates with 10s of millions in accelerators and constant inability to get someone done on a contract unless there is imeense public pressure. We are always up against the gun. Anyone want to refute Graves's biggest responsibility is contratcs/negotations and explain to me why he has done a good job in this capacity.

Its a joke. I am tired of this liability. Hes single handledly undermining all the hard work done by Mike B (Spending of Money) Wiz (Coaching Team) and Kiem and the scouting department because he cant do HIS job and negotiate good fair contracts.

We need a REAL GM. And if Michael doesnt believe we do and wants a yes man, why doesnt he take a look at the contracts of Fitz and Kolb, and how much having Graves in this position is COSTING him in the pocketbook.

Its ridiculous. #firerodgravesnow

Join the movement.

You'd better make that #firemikebidwillnow if you plan on making a difference in how this team is run. Getting rid of Graves won't change a thing and it could make matters worse.

 

[JeffGollin]

Right. Fire everyone. Cut everyone. Sell the team. And live happily ever after on that Big Rock Candy Mountain.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

These...

This moronity (yea - it's a word that aptly fits those who start these types of threads ) of this board never ceases to amaze me...

Let me clear this up 82. The people who defend Graves are the morons. Everybody who has a clear rational view point on this team on this board gets how bad Graves is. Some are just more tolerant. I can list them all out, but they are likely all nodding their head as they read this very paragraph and know who they are.

The burden of proof is on YOU and crispy57. Tell me why Graves is good. Tell me what you perceive to be his strength. Tell me why he is not a bottom five "GM" in the NFL and I defy you to find me 5 guys worse.

 

[crisper57]

Let me clear this up 82. The people who defend Graves are the morons. Everybody who has a clear rational view point on this team on this board gets how bad Graves is. Some are just more tolerant. I can list them all out, but they are likely all nodding their head as they read this very paragraph and know who they are.

The burden of proof is on YOU and crispy57. Tell me why Graves is good. Tell me what you perceive to be his strength. Tell me why he is not a bottom five "GM" in the NFL and I defy you to find me 5 guys worse.

Not saying he is good. Just saying that if you blame him for Manning or other things beyond his control, you are the idiot. Plenty of other things to latch onto.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Right. Fire everyone. Cut everyone. Sell the team. And live happily ever after on that Big Rock Candy Mountain.

God I hate to be generalized like this. I mean this viewpoint is so offbase its crazy. I one of the biggest Kool Aid drinkers on this board. I am the guy who brought you deep faith in Kevin Kolb as Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning in AZ, 3 T8me Super Bowl winner Matt Leinart, and extend Coach Wiz for life.....I believe in EVERYBODY here to a fault. I am the last guy looking to lop aheads.

If you dont think getting rid of Graves is the right thing to do, you havent been paying attention.

 

[Duckjake]

Reason #1 to fire Rod Graves. We have a better talent already on the Roster. Steve Keim. If we don't make him our GM some other smart NFL team eventually will.

Look at the two drafts 2010 and 2011 since he has been DOPP.

He'd get every free agent we want and negotiate perfect contracts for the Cards because players and their agents would be scared to death to tell him no.

 

[crisper57]

Reason #1 to fire Rod Graves. We have a better talent already on the Roster. Steve Keim. If we don't make him our GM some other smart NFL team eventually will.

Look at the two drafts 2010 and 2011 since he has been DOPP.

He'd get every free agent we want and negotiate perfect contracts for the Cards because players and their agents would be scared to death to tell him no.

Now this is a sentiment I can get behind. A nice, rational argument!

 

[Crazy Canuck]

God I hate to be generalized like this. I mean this viewpoint is so offbase its crazy. I one of the biggest Kool Aid drinkers on this board. I am the guy who brought you deep faith in Kevin Kolb as Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning in AZ, 3 T8me Super Bowl winner Matt Leinart, and extend Coach Wiz for life.....I believe in EVERYBODY here to a fault. I am the last guy looking to lop aheads.

If you dont think getting rid of Graves is the right thing to do, you havent been paying attention.

If you think that getting rid of Rod Graves is being contemplated, you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Not saying he is good. Just saying that if you blame him for Manning or other things beyond his control, you are the idiot.

Thats what happens when you are the GM. Why is Elway universally deemed responsible for having PM in Denver now?

Graves just isnt good enough. If somehow the Cardinals hire Elway, Manning is in Az no doubt. But it doesnt have to be Elway. It could be Newsome, Schnieder, or Baalke, Pioli or any number of credible smart guys who run their teams.

Its why everyone in the NFL is running from joining Miami. Jeff Ireland. Hes outright terrible. Grave is more understatedly terrible and inspires no confidence.

There you go. One GM worse then Graves for those keeping count. Anyone else.