Thunder @ Suns game, Sunday 3-3-24

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KD having one of his best years in forever - same with Book - same with Allen - same with Nurk - but we suck - and our bench is much deeper than some say - but we suck

Our bench does suck. We have a 2 player bench, maybe 2 & 1/2. Starters plus EG and Royce, sometimes Bol and sometimes Eubanks isn't awful. That doesn't cut it, especially when our best bench players play the same position our top 3 players do. So we have to go super small to utilize that depth. We need a PG and we need a legitimate big off the bench. Too late this year but I suspect we'll sign and trade either Allen or Royce to fill one of those holes. Gordon is as good as gone but I think we'll be able to find a shooter somewhere else. That will still leave us top heavy but we need a new coach and probably new GM making those deals.
 
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Covert Rain

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Our bench does suck. We have a 2 player bench, maybe 2 & 1/2. Starters plus EG and Royce, sometimes Bol and sometimes Eubanks isn't awful. That doesn't cut it, especially when our best bench players play the same position our top 3 players do. So we have to go super small to utilize that depth. We need a PG and we need a legitimate big off the bench. Too late this year but I suspect we'll sign and trade either Allen or Royce to fill one of those holes. Gordon is as good as gone but I think we'll be able to find a shooter somewhere else. That will still leave us top heavy but we need a new coach and probably new GM making those deals.
This. New coach for sure. Jones vision took us to another level. I won't dismiss that. I can see him going or staying next year but I wouldn't be upset either way.
 

Phrazbit

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KD having one of his best years in forever - same with Book - same with Allen - same with Nurk - but we suck - and our bench is much deeper than some say - but we suck

KD might be putting up the baseline stats, but his actual impact just isn't anywhere near what it used to be. He's a turnover machine, his shot selection has been awful, he completely vanishes in the 4th quarter night after night.

I feel like I'm watching this guy:

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JosiahLee

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This. Enough time has passed for me to officially declare the trade a failure. I think KD is averaging 27.9 while Bridges is averaging 20.9. But Bridges is young, plays defense, and is not a turnover machine.

I love KD but he got old and he got old quick.
 

Chaplin

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I'm following your logic of speaking for league executives. Apparently they all think KD is a top 10 or 20 talent so wouldn't that mean they'd line up to trade for him?
Same reason nobody is “lining up” to trade Jokic or Kawhi.
 

Chaplin

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KD might be putting up the baseline stats, but his actual impact just isn't anywhere near what it used to be. He's a turnover machine, his shot selection has been awful, he completely vanishes in the 4th quarter night after night.

I feel like I'm watching this guy:

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Well except KD actually tries on defense.

Not a great comparison.
 

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Now it's clear, our 4th qrt woo is solely due to our strategy to stubbornly try to feed KD and Book for ISOs, and it's become so predictable and every team has figured out how to disrupt it, namely with physical defense and quick double teams. That forces a lot of TOs and delays. TOs often lead to transition offense where we were bad at defending.
And it's not like we can't play differently. We put RO on Homgren to reduce damage of their PnR against Nurk, with good results. We certainly can do things to avoid issues with KD doubleteam, or Okogie bad shooting, etc. we just never consistently do them.
 

Cheesebeef

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Knives Out this morning on 98.7 just trashing KD AND Booker for their pathetic fourth quarters all year.

The Houston game was really the defining game of the season. In a must win game at home, a bad Rockets team was mentally stronger than us, we couldn’t close in a fourth quarter and we suffered another injury.

Stick a fork in this team, especially with Booker being out 7 to 10 days as our schedule FINALLY gets tough. They’re a play-in team that likely doesn’t even make the playoffs.

Probably better that way anyway. I’ve already seen Booker’s ass get annihilated at home in the playoffs by 40 to close out the last two seasons. Don’t feel the burning desire to see that again.
 
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Cheesebeef

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KD might be putting up the baseline stats, but his actual impact just isn't anywhere near what it used to be. He's a turnover machine, his shot selection has been awful, he completely vanishes in the 4th quarter night after night.

I feel like I'm watching this guy:

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You could say the same thing for Booker. And he’s supposed to be the guy in his prime.
 
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Covert Rain

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I think it's fair to say that this might be the game the proverbial wheels fell off the bus. We have gone 2-4 since the All-Star break. Still don't have an identity. Coach tries a hail mary putting in a 3-2 defense with most of the season gone (just confirming how bad it is). Now Booker is out 7 to 10 days.

This is all while having 3 stars, a center with more heart than Ayton and some of the best 3 point shooting in the league.

If this doesn't scream what a monumental failure Vogel has been? I don't know what does.
 

Phrazbit

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You could say the same thing for Booker. And he’s supposed to be the guy in his prime.

Compared to Durant, Booker is practically a vise when it comes to protecting the ball. Booker has the best assist to turnover ratio of all our rotation guys, Durant has the 2nd worst, only beating out Eubanks.

In the clutch Booker is putting up slightly more points than Durant on less shots than Durant.

The manner of Durant's turnovers are especially frustrating. The same slow, lazy passes over and over, or crazy stuff like trying to do a bounce pass with 3 defenders between him and his target. Live ball turnovers that seemingly always lead to an opposition fast break.
 

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Compared to Durant, Booker is practically a vise when it comes to protecting the ball. Booker has the best assist to turnover ratio of all our rotation guys, Durant has the 2nd worst, only beating out Eubanks.

In the clutch Booker is putting up slightly more points than Durant on less shots than Durant.

The manner of Durant's turnovers are especially frustrating. The same slow, lazy passes over and over, or crazy stuff like trying to do a bounce pass with 3 defenders between him and his target. Live ball turnovers that seemingly always lead to an opposition fast break.
Booker does have that nasty habit of pounding the ball out between the circles and running down the shot clock before going 1 on 5 or throwing a grenade to a teammate at the end of the shot clock.
 

Phrazbit

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Booker does have that nasty habit of pounding the ball out between the circles and running down the shot clock before going 1 on 5 or throwing a grenade to a teammate at the end of the shot clock.

100% agree on that, and he is far too slow bringing the ball up court, he is probably leading the league in 8 second time violations.

We need to play consistently faster, if you attack in transition it will be a lot harder for the opposition to setup the traps and doubles that Durant and Booker whine about.

That is my favorite part about Beal, he is constant motion... until he gets injured.
 

Proximo

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100% agree on that, and he is far too slow bringing the ball up court, he is probably leading the league in 8 second time violations.

We need to play consistently faster, if you attack in transition it will be a lot harder for the opposition to setup the traps and doubles that Durant and Booker whine about.

That is my favorite part about Beal, he is constant motion... until he gets injured.
Agreed, I don't care what anyone says the offense runs better when initiated by Beal than it does with KD.

Actually I'll go further, it is better initiated by Book, Beal, and Nurk than KD.
 

Cheesebeef

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Compared to Durant, Booker is practically a vise when it comes to protecting the ball. Booker has the best assist to turnover ratio of all our rotation guys, Durant has the 2nd worst, only beating out Eubanks.

In the clutch Booker is putting up slightly more points than Durant on less shots than Durant.

Yes… he’s better than Durant on turnovers but regularly DESTROYS possessions by pounding the ball and forcing someone else to make a terrible decision because he either got himself trapped or because he waited too long.

He’s also been flat out ATROCIOUS this year on D.

If KD is a meaningless scorer as you liken him to Melo, Booker ain’t far behind considering KD is at least a fair defender while Booker has been awful and has done nothing to create a good offense despite 7 assists per game.

I get bashing KD, especially when you hated the trade on the first place. I loved the trade and he’s quickly become one of my least favorite Suns EVER in a short amount of time. But no amount of slamming KD should take away from how disappointing Booker has been as the leader of his own team for once. This is a rudderless ship, and a lot of that is because he’s a mental midget who can’t really control an entire game, at least not on a regular basis.

Bottom line… KD isn’t special anymore because he’s old and has never been a leader. But sadly… the lesson this season and Last has taught us is that Book ain’t special either. He is what I’ve always believed him to be… the best #2 in the league, but a painfully mediocre #1, who can’t impact the entirety of a game on a regular basis, is mentally weak and gives no team built around him much hope of winning a title unless it’s just absolutely loaded and totally healthy around him.

THAT is the biggest bummer of this season for me because it means there’s really not much hope for a Booker led Suns future.
 
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Covert Rain

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Yes… he’s better than Durant on turnovers but regularly DESTROYS possessions by pounding the ball and forcing someone else to make a terrible decision because he either got himself trapped or because he waited too long.

He’s also been flat out ATROCIOUS this year on D.

If KD is a meaningless scorer as you liken him to Melo, Booker ain’t far behind considering KD is at least a fair defender while Booker has been awful and has done nothing to create a good offense despite 7 assists per game.

I get bashing KD, especially when you hated the trade on the first place. I loved the trade and he’s quickly become one of my least favorite Suns EVER in a short amount of time. But no amount of slamming KD should take away from how disappointing Booker has been as the leader of his own team for once. This is a rudderless ship, and a lot of that is because he’s a mental midget who can’t really control an entire game, at least not on a regular basis.

Bottom line… KD isn’t special anymore because he’s old and has never been a leader. But sadly… the lesson this season and Last has taught us is that Book ain’t special either. He is what I’ve always believed him to be… the best #2 in the league, but a painfully mediocre #1, who can’t impact the entirety of a game on a regular basis, is mentally weak and gives no team built around him much hope of winning a title unless it’s just absolutely loaded and totally healthy around him.

THAT is the biggest bummer of this season for me because it means there’s really not much hope for a Booker led Suns future.
I have been saying for a long time Booker cannot be your #1. He cannot be the best player on the team. So all those KD bashers out there better start looking at Booker because some of the same things they say about KD is Booker in SPADES. If a Booker led team cannot get it done with CP3, cannot get it done with KD and Beal?! It isn't getting done.

It's time to realize that maybe Booker as talented and as much as I love the dude is part of the problem. The new realities in the NBA are your cornerstones of your franchise are likely going to have to be mostly home grown. I am glad we took a swing but it looks like we whiffed. Booker can by far get us the biggest haul of assets.
 

Phrazbit

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I have been saying for a long time Booker cannot be your #1. He cannot be the best player on the team. So all those KD bashers out there better start looking at Booker because some of the same things they say about KD is Booker in SPADES. If a Booker led team cannot get it done with CP3, cannot get it done with KD and Beal?! It isn't getting done.

It's time to realize that maybe Booker as talented and as much as I love the dude is part of the problem. The new realities in the NBA are your cornerstones of your franchise are likely going to have to be mostly home grown. I am glad we took a swing but it looks like we whiffed. Booker can by far get us the biggest haul of assets.

First off... Booker wasn't supposed to to be the #1, we also didn't leverage the next decade of basketball to get him.

We also can't afford to blow it up because we don't control our draft. Unless we get our picks back somehow, then blowing it up will result in the Nets and Wizards taking turns picking in the top 10 with our draft picks for the next 7 years.
 
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Covert Rain

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First off... Booker wasn't supposed to to be the #1, we also didn't leverage the next decade of basketball to get him.

We also can't afford to blow it up because we don't control our draft. Unless we get our picks back somehow, then blowing it up will result in the Nets and Wizards taking turns picking in the top 10 with our draft picks for the next 7 years.
Yes he was. CP3 was brought here to compliment Booker. Prior to landing Durant, all the talk was that they were looking for another star to play alongside him. The Suns still call this Booker's team. This has never been anybody else's team than Booker's.
 

Phrazbit

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Yes he was. CP3 was brought here to compliment Booker. Prior to landing Durant, all the talk was that they were looking for another star to play alongside him. The Suns still call this Booker's team.

The Heat were still Wade's team while LeBron was there but LeBron was the best player and #1 option. The Durant trade was billed as a sure fire title contender move for an MVP caliber player.
 

Phrazbit

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All this "#1 or #2" talk is silly anyway IMO.

We were a few possessions away from a title in 2021 without an MVP candidate on the roster.

Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts... and sometimes it's less. With this team it's a lot less and the failure of the Durant trade is going to make it nearly impossible to fix going forward.
 
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Covert Rain

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The Heat were still Wade's team while LeBron was there but LeBron was the best player and #1 option. The Durant trade was billed as a sure fire title contender move for an MVP caliber player.
We didn't know KD was possible until KD decided he wanted to be here. Had KD not, Booker likely would still be the best player on this team and they would be looking for another star to compliment him. KD was an unexpected scenario.
 

Phrazbit

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We didn't know KD was possible until KD decided he wanted to be here. Had KD not, Booker likely would still be the best player on this team and they would be looking for another star to compliment him. KD was an unexpected scenario.

There are always stars rattling their sabres to move elsewhere.

If someone surprisingly offered me a Lamborghini that can't dive over hills and has 200k miles on it... I am going to pass... I certainly am not going to pay the MSRP.
 
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Covert Rain

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There are always stars rattling their sabres to move elsewhere.

If someone surprisingly offered me a Lamborghini that can't dive over hills and has 200k miles on it... I am going to pass... I certainly am not going to pay the MSRP.
I agree but it doesn't change the fact that had KD not fell into their lap, the team has always approached bringing guys in here to compliment Booker not to supplant him as the best player on the team.
 

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