Talk is nice, action is better

[kerouac9]

There is no attack, there is just nothing to base things on. Going on the radio or talking to the media has nothing to do with leadership. You may think all of these things point to a lack of leadership but you are still just making assumptions of the guy.

I'm not going to compare his leadership to dansby as dansby is a 32 year old vet and he should be more of a leader by default.

But either way, I dont like armchair quarterbacking when its of intangibles that we do not get to see. Its pure conjecture and baseless.

I don't know. I think it's an aspect of leadership to get in front of a microphone after a loss and speak for the team/program. It's why coaches and quarterbacks generally are required to do it, and why Fitz took flak for it early in his career.

Dansby was a captain and leader during his first tenure here, as well. He was a captain at the same age Daryl Washington is now.

It's not pure conjecture, and it does have basis. I've provided the support in this thread. Can you provide any support that Washington IS a leader and is viewed that way by his teammates? The most I can come up with is a few months ago when DWash was scheduled to come back, Wolfley had to prompt Campbell or Peterson to discuss how Washington "will hold teammates accountable" for mistakes (or something).

DWash is a very productive player for this franchise, and the team is better with him than without him. But Dansby pretty clearly has superior intangibles, and (admitting that I'm a shameless Karlos Dansby fan) if the team has to choose between them, the fan in me would prefer to see Dansby in #58.

 

[GuernseyCard]

I don't know. I think it's an aspect of leadership to get in front of a microphone after a loss and speak for the team/program. It's why coaches and quarterbacks generally are required to do it, and why Fitz took flak for it early in his career.

Dansby was a captain and leader during his first tenure here, as well. He was a captain at the same age Daryl Washington is now.

It's not pure conjecture, and it does have basis. I've provided the support in this thread. Can you provide any support that Washington IS a leader and is viewed that way by his teammates? The most I can come up with is a few months ago when DWash was scheduled to come back, Wolfley had to prompt Campbell or Peterson to discuss how Washington "will hold teammates accountable" for mistakes (or something).

DWash is a very productive player for this franchise, and the team is better with him than without him. But Dansby pretty clearly has superior intangibles, and (admitting that I'm a shameless Karlos Dansby fan) if the team has to choose between them, the fan in me would prefer to see Dansby in #58.

Do you actually think he can go before the mikes and not be asked about off the field issues?

C'mon man!

 

[Darkside]

Under no circumstances do you let DWash get away. I love LOS, and if you can keep both you obviously do it, But if it comes down to choosing you keep the younger player. It's entirely speculative to say he's not as good as Dansby, but if he isn't, he's close, with a lot of room (and time) to grow. Dansby is playing out of his mind: while he was good before, this is the best year he's had in my opinion, it's not like he's this Dansby every year (even though he's good).

Couldn't find who it was (apologies) but someone said Dansby is playing so well he's making DWash look normal. And that's all it is. Good for Dansby, and good for us...but it doesn't decrease DWash's value.

That being said, I agree with K9 about Wash's lack of vocal leadership (I just wouldn't get rid of him for it). Fitz isn't much of a vocal leader in my mind either. Neither is Calvin Johnson (Stafford does that). Both are great players. As stacked as our D is there are plenty of guys to look to for vocal leadership. PP comes to mind. Plus, Dansby is just out of his mind crazy on the field, calling plays, yelling at dudes, moving guys around--he was like that when he was with us before too. But most guys aren't jacked up like this dude. If he were the same age as Washington I'd say sure, but he's not--he probably gets the free discounts at Golden Corral with our coaching staff.

 

[schutd]

All of Dansby's sacks have come in the last 9 games.

To me that says DWash's presence on the field has opened up a lot for Los. We should try and keep em both. If we can't, Ill go with DWash. Hope we dont have to choose.

 

[SO91]

All of Dansby's sacks have come in the last 9 games.

Is your inference that Todd Bowles is sending the inferior pass rusher on blitzes?

Or perhaps he's keeping the better coverage guy in coverage?

 

[SO91]

I personally don't agree with dumping a talented young player because of a perceived lack of leadership among a unit that has pretty solid leadership from other good/great players. The defense has been great this year, but it was also great last year without Dansby.

 

[Brak]

I think we'll be able to keep Dansby. Look how bad the market was going into this season for many vets who THOUGHT they'd be worth more than they got. It happened all over. Abraham? Had a SOLID year last year, and we were able to sign them the day before camp opened? Seems crazy now. Hell, Kerry Rhodes STILL hasn't been signed by anybody. Dansby got little interest, and the Cards got him for a bargain price. Owners just don't want to pay huge money for tenured free agents any more - they eat up too much cap space, and too often, they don't play up to their cost. Better to spend your cap money locking down your younger stars long-term. Time will tell if next year plays out similarly, but I'm betting it will.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Trade or release Washington my God NFL fans are so week to week with their opinions. One of the top ILB in the game at his age and signed long term to a reasonable deal. Yeah that makes sense. Bonus or not Washington is second most indispensible player on TEAM. And because you want to sign a 33 yr old LB, and 2 backup DEs. UNPOPULAR isnt the adjective I would have used as a qualifier for that opinion. Sick GM skills.

As for Dansby defintely want to bring him back but I dont give him more then 3 years. Hes playing well (as expected with a contract looming and has been his M.O.) but there is Minter and the aftermentioned Washington if price goes to high. Would love to cut Brinkley to get Dansby that money and he is IMO the biggest priority to resign. Then Winston then Shaunessey. Rest of them only at the right price.

 

[Cardiac]

Trade or release Washington my God NFL fans are so week to week with their opinions. One of the top ILB in the game at his age and signed long term to a reasonable deal. Yeah that makes sense. Bonus or not Washington is second most indispensible player on TEAM. And because you want to sign a 33 yr old LB, and 2 backup DEs. UNPOPULAR isnt the adjective I would have used as a qualifier for that opinion. Sick GM skills.

As for Dansby defintely want to bring him back but I dont give him more then 3 years. Hes playing well (as expected with a contract looming and has been his M.O.) but there is Minter and the aftermentioned Washington if price goes to high. Would love to cut Brinkley to get Dansby that money and he is IMO the biggest priority to resign. Then Winston then Shaunessey. Rest of them only at the right price.

I was with you until you listed Winston before Shaunessey and the rest.

Not sure why this regime doesn't like Massie but they are putting him in now instead of Potter when they bring in an extra Olineman.

I'm all for letting Winston walk, drafting a LT and having So well and Massie fight it out for the RT position.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Trade or release Washington my God NFL fans are so week to week with their opinions. One of the top ILB in the game at his age and signed long term to a reasonable deal. Yeah that makes sense. Bonus or not Washington is second most indispensible player on TEAM. And because you want to sign a 33 yr old LB, and 2 backup DEs. UNPOPULAR isnt the adjective I would have used as a qualifier for that opinion. Sick GM skills.

As for Dansby defintely want to bring him back but I dont give him more then 3 years. Hes playing well (as expected with a contract looming and has been his M.O.) but there is Minter and the aftermentioned Washington if price goes to high. Would love to cut Brinkley to get Dansby that money and he is IMO the biggest priority to resign. Then Winston then Shaunessey. Rest of them only at the right price.

Perfectly stated, outside of Campbell (who is one of the best defenders in the NFL), Washington is the #1 guy that teams have to scheme around due to his incredible versatility. K9's stats about Dansby/Abraham sack numbers with Washington in the lineup highlight his value better than anything. Sadly, his vision is clouded by his Dansby colored glasses.


Keeping Campbell/Washington/Peterson together should be priority one for the defense. Those are the kind of players great D's are built around.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Trade or release Washington my God NFL fans are so week to week with their opinions. One of the top ILB in the game at his age and signed long term to a reasonable deal. Yeah that makes sense. Bonus or not Washington is second most indispensible player on TEAM. And because you want to sign a 33 yr old LB, and 2 backup DEs. UNPOPULAR isnt the adjective I would have used as a qualifier for that opinion. Sick GM skills.

As for Dansby defintely want to bring him back but I dont give him more then 3 years. Hes playing well (as expected with a contract looming and has been his M.O.)

his M.O. has been to play well his entire career. This idea that he only plays well in contract years is bubkis. What's next Finest? You gonna tell us that Washington and Dansby couldn't play together like you did for three years when continually repeating "If we had Dansby, we wouldn't have Washington?" when people would lament Dansby's loss?

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Keeping Campbell/Washington/Peterson together should be priority one for the defense. Those are the kind of players great D's are built around.

A game changer at each level. Sounds like a foundation to me.

 

[Longcolts]

SMH. Yep that's what I would do. Release a 27 year old speed demon ILB for one that's not near as fast (albeit much more experienced) at 33 years old. Dansby has what? Maybe 3 or 4 years left while Washington should be good to go for 8 or 9 barring a major injury? I'd like to keep both of them, they've fed off of each other well this year but if push comes to shove I'll keep Washington thank you very much.

 

[BigRedRage]

I don't know. I think it's an aspect of leadership to get in front of a microphone after a loss and speak for the team/program. It's why coaches and quarterbacks generally are required to do it, and why Fitz took flak for it early in his career.

Dansby was a captain and leader during his first tenure here, as well. He was a captain at the same age Daryl Washington is now.

It's not pure conjecture, and it does have basis. I've provided the support in this thread. Can you provide any support that Washington IS a leader and is viewed that way by his teammates? The most I can come up with is a few months ago when DWash was scheduled to come back, Wolfley had to prompt Campbell or Peterson to discuss how Washington "will hold teammates accountable" for mistakes (or something).

DWash is a very productive player for this franchise, and the team is better with him than without him. But Dansby pretty clearly has superior intangibles, and (admitting that I'm a shameless Karlos Dansby fan) if the team has to choose between them, the fan in me would prefer to see Dansby in #58.

I say keep both but if we HAVE to choose I keep dwash as he can play for us for 10 more years. Dansby cannot.

I dont need to quantify his leadership abilities, sorry. His play on the field is enough for me. pp21 and 90 are the leaders of the D. pp21 was even yelling at players to stop fighting and go to the sideline. He is the leader - he is the adub.

 

[kerouac9]

I say keep both but if we HAVE to choose I keep dwash as he can play for us for 10 more years. Dansby cannot.

I dont need to quantify his leadership abilities, sorry. His play on the field is enough for me. pp21 and 90 are the leaders of the D. pp21 was even yelling at players to stop fighting and go to the sideline. He is the leader - he is the adub.

Well, Washington is only under contract for four more years, so how long he can play in the NFL is somewhat speculative, right?

Essentially, you're admitting that Washington isn't a leader, but that you don't care. That's fine with me.

 

[GuernseyCard]

Well, Washington is only under contract for four more years, so how long he can play in the NFL is somewhat speculative, right?

Essentially, you're admitting that Washington isn't a leader, but that you don't care. That's fine with me.

No he's admitting, as you should, that he doesn't know to what extent D-wash is or is not a leader, but given his play chooses to put the question aside.

If the question is D-wash at 27 or Karlos at 32/33 and Keim chooses Los, then he really is as obtuse as you've often intimated.

 

[BigRedRage]

Well, Washington is only under contract for four more years, so how long he can play in the NFL is somewhat speculative, right?

Essentially, you're admitting that Washington isn't a leader, but that you don't care. That's fine with me.

Lol so you think stating a young player can have a long career is speculative but you are all for questioning leadership from the outside looking in?

Im not admitting anything about washingtons leadership ability as I am ignorant to it and so are you regardless of your undercover reporting from reading articles and making assumptions based on media availability.

What ill admit is washington is a top tier ILB and more important to this franchises future than is Karlos Dansby regardless of how much I still like Dansby.

Washington is ILBOTF and constantly in the same discussions as bowman and willis.

 

[wa52lz]

Yes but most of the key contributors to this years turnaround are being paid well. Stellar players who were kept around by highly paid extensions instead of the usual creating holes because the Cards didn't want to pay their own players. (but oddly enough they'd pay someone else's)

That's the sort of thinking that took us from 31-26 and two playoff appearances and a SB to 18-30 and a new GM and Head Coach. Same thing that happened after the 1998 season.

Who didnt we spend money on after 1998?? Certainly not Plummer and Rob Moore, or Rob Fredrickson. Centers went from making $2 million plus with us to less than $900k w/ the Redskins, the hot free agent commodity that was Jamir Miller turned down multiple offers from us and ended up taking less from the Browns on a one year deal in May, and Lomas Brown took similar money from the Browns(but 3yrs instead of 2), and used us to leverage them into all sorts of off the record perks, parking concessions for his parking company, promises of front office position, etc, after one year they realized that he had no business making $3+ million and let him go.

 

[kerouac9]

Washington is ILBOTF and constantly in the same discussions as bowman and willis.

Links? Thanks in advance.

I did a quick google search, and the time outside of forums like this one when they're compared was the impact that Washington's CONTRACT has on Bowman.

 

[BigRedRage]

Links? Thanks in advance.

I did a quick google search, and the time outside of forums like this one when they're compared was the impact that Washington's CONTRACT has on Bowman.

They were last year, not this year but this year he missed 4 games so it is understandable.

Just for fun I did find an article right away that says if he wasnt a cardinal he would have that consideration

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...on-ranks-among-the-top-dpoy-candidates/page/4


And the other one i clicked on

Arizona Cardinals linebacker Daryl Washington is one of the top five Pro Bowl vote-getters at the linebacker position, reports the team. Patrick Willis and NaVorro Bowman, both of the San Francisco 49ers, are the only linebackers ahead of Washington.

http://arizona.sbnation.com/arizona...o-bowl-2013-voting-daryl-washington-cardinals

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Links? Thanks in advance.

I did a quick google search, and the time outside of forums like this one when they're compared was the impact that Washington's CONTRACT has on Bowman.

C'mon K9, do you really believe Washington isn't the equal of guys like Willis and Bowman? Maybe I'm biased, but I'd take Washington - he's much more versatile and check out the numbers Willis has put up the last 3 years - ok, but nothing like earlier in his career. Washington had more sacks last year that Bowman has in his entire career.

Bottom line, you don't give up a top 5 (arguably top 3) player at his position, one that quite clearly makes everyone on your defense better. Even if you have KD tattoos and idle speculation about his leadership.

 

[BigRedRage]

Cardinals Blogs | Patrick Willis


blog.azcardinals.com/tag/patrick-willishttp://www.bing.com/search?q=daryl+washington+patrick+willis&src=IE-SearchBox&first=9&FORM=PORE#
Linebacker Daryl Washington, with 159,407 votes, was third among NFC inside linebackers behind the San Francisco tandem of Patrick Willis and NaVarro Bowman.

 

[kerouac9]

They were last year, not this year but this year he missed 4 games so it is understandable.

Just for fun I did find an article right away that says if he wasnt a cardinal he would have that consideration

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...on-ranks-among-the-top-dpoy-candidates/page/4


And the other one i clicked on

http://arizona.sbnation.com/arizona...o-bowl-2013-voting-daryl-washington-cardinals

Okay, so two fan-written blogs (essentially the same as this forum) and Darren Urban mention Washington in the same sentence as Willis and Bowman. As I said, you shouldn't talk about the rest of the NFL if you only follow the local team. It's okay if you're only interested in the Cardinals, but don't pretend that you can compare their players to the rest of the league, because you don't have the info.

C'mon K9, do you really believe Washington isn't the equal of guys like Willis and Bowman? Maybe I'm biased, but I'd take Washington - he's much more versatile and check out the numbers Willis has put up the last 3 years - ok, but nothing like earlier in his career. Washington had more sacks last year that Bowman has in his entire career.

Bottom line, you don't give up a top 5 (arguably top 3) player at his position, one that quite clearly makes everyone on your defense better. Even if you have KD tattoos and idle speculation about his leadership.

Equal? I don't know. Washington's really good. Like Dansby, he doesn't have the cred around the league because the Cards are never on nationally televised games. To say that "people mention Washington in the same breath" as those other guys doesn't make sense, because no one watches Cards game except Cards fans.

There are just SO MANY good linebackers in the NFL. Washington is on the upper tier of linebackers, but he's not as good as Willis and Keuchly--and that has nothing to do with talent. Washington probably has athleticism to be the best linebacker in the NFL. But I don't think that he has the football intelligence or leadership abilities to really separate himself at the end of the day.

I just think that there are probably 10-16 elite linebackers in the NFL (not counting rush linebackers). Both Dansby and Washington are probably among them, but to stand out among those 10-16 you have to be pretty special in multiple areas that extend beyond being fast.

 

[BigRedRage]

Okay, so two fan-written blogs (essentially the same as this forum) and Darren Urban mention Washington in the same sentence as Willis and Bowman.


Both Dansby and Washington are probably among them, but to stand out among those 10-16 you have to be pretty special in multiple areas that extend beyond being fast

he mentioned that he was third in pro bowl voting. I wasnt concerned with the source, just that Dwash was considered top 3LB in pro bowl voting.

Its the NFC but still.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/daryl-washington-202725-2.html


As far as the second quoted area, Dwash and dansby stand out in tackles, picks and sacks. Not just speed.

 

[kerouac9]

he mentioned that he was third in pro bowl voting. I wasnt concerned with the source, just that Dwash was considered top 3LB in pro bowl voting.

Its the NFC but still.

http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/f4/daryl-washington-202725-2.html


As far as the second quoted area, Dwash and dansby stand out in tackles, picks and sacks. Not just speed.

And "constantly" means basically last November and December. So not for a year or more.

Gotcha.