Suns @ Warriors Wednesday 10-30-19 game thread

[Mainstreet]

Good list, but

Your #4 is my #1 by a mile. It seems that whoever Monty puts out on the floor will run through a wall for him on O and D. Ricky, Jevon, Frank, Dario, Baynes... were not presumably highly sought after. Now each of their stock has taken a significant spike upwards. That is just a good HC getting everything he can out of his players.

Something to consider for the future: we've always had to trade players when their stock is rock bottom. With each of these players showing growth under Monty, there's a real possibility that we can trade these players when their stock is up (presuming we would want to trade them). It's been since Jerry Colangelo that this has occurred.

I do think the formula, better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late, is the right philosophy.

IMO, there are some rare exceptions.

In regard to Steve Nash, I wish the Suns had kept him much like they did Kevin Johnson until he retired.

The Mavericks kept Dirk Nowitzki his whole care.

 

[BC867]

I disagree with one of your basic assumptions--Ayton is a finesse center. Just because he is skilled does not mean he is a finesse center?

Please elaborate. I find that, "...does not mean" is not the same as explaining what it does mean.

Specifically, a Center who does not draw fouls, seems to be an opportunity rebounder and seems
to be more comfortable playing on the perimeter and trying to enter the lane like a Guard and has
not blocked many shots, can be defined as a power Center. That is a finesse Center.

We've witnessed the difference since his indiscretion. And the change in the Suns since, among
many reasons, Baynes became our starting Center.

Going with Baynes all season is a short-term solution. Finding a long-term role playing power
Center like him, with Ayton roaming at the heavy Forward position when he returns, seems to
be our best approach to continue our impressive start.

Until and unless Ayton shows, from whichever Power position, that he . . .

. . . can draw fouls, become a power rebounder, learn how to find his best scoring position after
setting picks at the 3-point line and block shots regularly . . .

. . . I consider him a finesse Center. 'Not the way to finally reach the playoffs this decade.

Calling him skilled which, of course he is, doesn't determine which role would be best for him.

JC, if we continue playing as we have with Baynes as our starting Center until Ayton returns,
then we go back to the same-old-same-old, I will not feel good about who is right or wrong.

I am rooting for what is best for the season. Namely, continuing our impressive start since
opening up the Center position to a new approach. One that the Suns are not known to
have embraced with any consistency during the past decade or half century.

 

[Raze]

I do think the formula, better to trade a player a year too early than a year too late, is the right philosophy.

IMO, there are some rare exceptions.

In regard to Steve Nash, I wish the Suns had kept him much like they did Kevin Johnson until he retired.

The Mavericks kept Dirk Nowitzki his whole care.

Totally. I truly hope Booker retires a life time Sun in 10-12 years. Hopefully Ayton will see the light after this dumb move and also be a life timer. That could be a deadly duo for years to come.

Outside of them, if necessary, we can play the trade up game.

I got truly sick of watching players get worse here, only to see us trade them low. We were like vampires sucking the life out of prospects and then leaving the carcass on the side of the road for the buzzards to pick at.

 

[Phrazbit]

Please elaborate. I find that, "...does not mean" is not the same as explaining what it does mean.

Specifically, a Center who does not draw fouls, seems to be an opportunity rebounder and seems
to be more comfortable playing on the perimeter and trying to enter the lane like a Guard and has
not blocked many shots, can be defined as a power Center. That is a finesse Center.

We've witnessed the difference since his indiscretion. And the change in the Suns since, among
many reasons, Baynes became our starting Center.

Going with Baynes all season is a short-term solution. Finding a long-term role playing power
Center like him, with Ayton roaming at the heavy Forward position when he returns, seems to
be our best approach to continue our impressive start.

Until and unless Ayton shows, from whichever Power position, that he . . .

. . . can draw fouls, become a power rebounder, learn how to find his best scoring position after
setting picks at the 3-point line and block shots regularly . . .

. . . I consider him a finesse Center. 'Not the way to finally reach the playoffs this decade.

Calling him skilled which, of course he is, doesn't determine which role would be best for him.

JC, if we continue playing as we have with Baynes as our starting Center until Ayton returns,
then we go back to the same-old-same-old, I will not feel good about who is right or wrong.

I am rooting for what is best for the season. Namely, continuing our impressive start since
opening up the Center position to a new approach. One that the Suns are not known to
have embraced with any consistency during the past decade or half century.

Baynes averages less FT per minute for his career than Ayton does.

Furthermore, drawing fouls is no less the job of a 4 than it is a 5. This argument makes absolutely zero sense.

 

[BC867]

Baynes averages less FT per minute for his career than Ayton does.

Furthermore, drawing fouls is no less the job of a 4 than it is a 5. This argument makes absolutely zero sense.

OK, you disagree with one of the four points I made. There are still the other three.

 

[AzStevenCal]

It seems like a lot of Suns fans (not just here) think we have been better with Baynes instead of Ayton and I think it's far too early for that conclusion. I would point out that we have won 100% of the games that Ayton has played in so far and only 50% of the games without him. Plus, we have outscored our opponents by 29 points per game when he plays and only by 4 points per game without him. And yes, I know I'm playing fast and loose with the facts here but they are true statements nonetheless.

 

[Mainstreet]

It seems like a lot of Suns fans (not just here) think we have been better with Baynes instead of Ayton and I think it's far too early for that conclusion. I would point out that we have won 100% of the games that Ayton has played in so far and only 50% of the games without him. Plus, we have outscored our opponents by 29 points per game when he plays and only by 4 points per game without him. And yes, I know I'm playing fast and loose with the facts here but they are true statements nonetheless.

Yeah. Although Baynes has played well for the Suns but they are treading water until Ayton returns. They definitely need Ayton at center to be really good.

 

[Superbone]

It seems like a lot of Suns fans (not just here) think we have been better with Baynes instead of Ayton and I think it's far too early for that conclusion. I would point out that we have won 100% of the games that Ayton has played in so far and only 50% of the games without him. Plus, we have outscored our opponents by 29 points per game when he plays and only by 4 points per game without him. And yes, I know I'm playing fast and loose with the facts here but they are true statements nonetheless.

There's reason to believe that we could be going for a 6-0 record tonight if the Ayton suspension hadn't happened.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There's reason to believe that we could be going for a 6-0 record tonight if the Ayton suspension hadn't happened.

Yeah, I believe we would be 6-0 without the suspension although perhaps we'd have faced a more focused Clippers team if we hadn't lost that game in Denver. Regardless, I'm quite content with our start and just hope we can keep playing well until we get Ayton back.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It seems like a lot of Suns fans (not just here) think we have been better with Baynes instead of Ayton and I think it's far too early for that conclusion. I would point out that we have won 100% of the games that Ayton has played in so far and only 50% of the games without him. Plus, we have outscored our opponents by 29 points per game when he plays and only by 4 points per game without him. And yes, I know I'm playing fast and loose with the facts here but they are true statements nonetheless.

I don’t know that I’d say “a lot” . . .

I think baynes is a favorite bc his output has been unexpected and that usually makes for a fan favorite, and his mentality is something we wish we’d see from Ayton. But I’m uncertain anyone here actually thinks we’re better with baynes than Ayton. The great thing is, ultimately it’s not an either/or proposition. We got both!

 

[Hoop Head]

OK, you disagree with one of the four points I made. There are still the other three.

Your other 3 points aren't in Baynes' favor either. Ayton has a better rebounding percentage, pulling down 18.5% of those available to Baynes' 16.1 but Baynes is down to 15.8 if you use just this year and his last 2 in Boston. So Ayton is the better rebounder of the two. It's not just rebounding rate either but as far as rebounds per games, Rubio leads the team with 6.8. Our PG is averaging more rebounds than our current starting C, don't you see that as a mark against Baynes? For all Ayton's faults I don't believe he was out rebounded by our PG last season, let alone out rebounded for 5 games. So if Ayton is just an opportunistic rebounder what does that make Baynes?

Ayton and Baynes share the same block shot percentage of 2.7% but Baynes' average is for his career, which has been 8 years compared to Ayton's 1 year and 1 game. In Ayton's 1 game this season he had 4 blocks. Maybe he's improved, removing him from Center won't answer that question though.

As far as setting screens and scoring, is it really up for debate who is the better scorer of the 2? I'll give Baynes credit for being a much better screener but he's not drawing fouls and getting the line, as Phrazbit pointed out, and he's not scoring off the screens himself either. So if Baynes isn't doing what you want Ayton to do why do you consider him a physical Center to Ayton's finesse label and why do you want him to start there in place of Ayton?


I don't mean to bash Baynes, I love what he brings to the table but I also believe he is best used in a backup role for 15-20 minutes a night when he doesn't have to worry about fouling and can help set a tempo and physicality rather than needing to focus on being available for 30+ minutes a night and be able to play in the 4th without 5 fouls hanging over his head.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yeah, I believe we would be 6-0 without the suspension although perhaps we'd have faced a more focused Clippers team if we hadn't lost that game in Denver. Regardless, I'm quite content with our start and just hope we can keep playing well until we get Ayton back.

If the difference in the clippers focus was us scoring 2 more points the night before they are big trouble.

 

[BC867]

Your other 3 points aren't in Baynes' favor either. Ayton has a better rebounding percentage, pulling down 18.5% of those available to Baynes' 16.1 but Baynes is down to 15.8 if you use just this year and his last 2 in Boston. So Ayton is the better rebounder of the two. It's not just rebounding rate either but as far as rebounds per games, Rubio leads the team with 6.8. Our PG is averaging more rebounds than our current starting C, don't you see that as a mark against Baynes? For all Ayton's faults I don't believe he was out rebounded by our PG last season, let alone out rebounded for 5 games. So if Ayton is just an opportunistic rebounder what does that make Baynes?

Ayton and Baynes share the same block shot percentage of 2.7% but Baynes' average is for his career, which has been 8 years compared to Ayton's 1 year and 1 game. In Ayton's 1 game this season he had 4 blocks. Maybe he's improved, removing him from Center won't answer that question though.

As far as setting screens and scoring, is it really up for debate who is the better scorer of the 2? I'll give Baynes credit for being a much better screener but he's not drawing fouls and getting the line, as Phrazbit pointed out, and he's not scoring off the screens himself either. So if Baynes isn't doing what you want Ayton to do why do you consider him a physical Center to Ayton's finesse label and why do you want him to start there in place of Ayton?


I don't mean to bash Baynes, I love what he brings to the table but I also believe he is best used in a backup role for 15-20 minutes a night when he doesn't have to worry about fouling and can help set a tempo and physicality rather than needing to focus on being available for 30+ minutes a night and be able to play in the 4th without 5 fouls hanging over his head.

I did post that I don't consider Baynes to be a long-term solution at Center,
if Ayton's position were to be a twin-towers Power Forward.

We would need to obtain a strong role-playing Center going forward.

But I concede that it is probably not going to happen . . . . .
unless we slip badly when Ayton settles back in Center.

Only time will tell. Until then, it is conjecture.

 

[BC867]

It seems like a lot of Suns fans (not just here) think we have been better with Baynes instead of Ayton and I think it's far too early for that conclusion. I would point out that we have won 100% of the games that Ayton has played in so far and only 50% of the games without him. Plus, we have outscored our opponents by 29 points per game when he plays and only by 4 points per game without him. And yes, I know I'm playing fast and loose with the facts here but they are true statements nonetheless.

Funny, Steve! Ayton has played one game this season. He won 100% of one.

I know you were being tongue-in-cheek.

 

[Phrazbit]

OK, you disagree with one of the four points I made. There are still the other three.

The whole premise is based on him not shooting free throws so the other points are just further spin on a faulty premise.

Especially this idea that Ayton isn't doing his part on the glass, I don't know if anyone has rebounded at such a rate only 2 years removed from high school.

 

[BC867]

The whole premise is based on him not shooting free throws so the other points are just further spin on a faulty premise.

Especially this idea that Ayton isn't doing his part on the glass, I don't know if anyone has rebounded at such a rate only 2 years removed from high school.

I'm curious if you agree at all that the eye test shows that Ayton is an opportunity rebounder (the opportunity being his height), but that he is
not a domineering rebounder (which would put us at a disadvantage in the rougher, tougher playoffs, when the refs favor power in the post).

 

[JCSunsfan]

I'm curious if you agree at all that the eye test shows that Ayton is an opportunity rebounder (the opportunity being his height), but that he is
not a domineering rebounder (which would put us at a disadvantage in the rougher, tougher playoffs, when the refs favor power in the post).

Disagree. Ayton rebounds with size and position and is the best rebounder on this team—it’s not close.

 

[BC867]

Disagree. Ayton rebounds with size and position and is the best rebounder on this team—it’s not close.

I can't disagree with that. Just as his stats show.

But I'm looking ahead to the playoffs when, if we make it,
we'll be one of the weaker teams in the mix.

I am concerned, not with being the best rebounder on the
team, but that Ayton can turn into a tough rebounder
against tough opponents.

Or have a power player alongside him, no matter what
you call him, who can fill that role.

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it. My opinion is that
Ayton will have to prove that he can be a tough rebounder.

 

[gimpy]

Your opinion?

 

[SirStefan32]

Rebounding is literally the thing Ayton does best. He can also score and defend out on the perimeter, but rebounding is by far his number one skill.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Rebounding is literally the thing Ayton does best. He can also score and defend out on the perimeter, but rebounding is by far his number one skill.

By far might be a stretch. His scoring efficiency is pretty spectacular as well. Though I would agree that he is a better rebounder than he is a scorer in general.

 

[BC867]

Rebounding is literally the thing Ayton does best. He can also score and defend out on the perimeter, but rebounding is by far his number one skill.

Again, is his #1 skill (if that is the case) going to advance us in the post-season
over the next few years?

Saying that he is the best rebounder on the team, or that rebounding is his #1
skill, is not the same as saying that he will be better than playoff level competition.

Being the best pizza maker in the store, or even best pizza maker on the block,
means nothing when there are ten competing pizzerias who dominate sales.

 

[SirStefan32]

By far might be a stretch. His scoring efficiency is pretty spectacular as well. Though I would agree that he is a better rebounder than he is a scorer in general.

Fair enough.

 

[GatorAZ]

When you’re craving pizza because of a @BC867 rant on rebounding...

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm curious if you agree at all that the eye test shows that Ayton is an opportunity rebounder (the opportunity being his height), but that he is
not a domineering rebounder (which would put us at a disadvantage in the rougher, tougher playoffs, when the refs favor power in the post).

No, I reject it emphatically and I don't see how anyone can come to that conclusion unless they are really trying to force a narrative. If there is anything that Ayton is already excellent at it is rebounding.

Again... the guy had one of the best, perhaps the best, rebounding seasons by anyone his age in league history. He boxes out, he fights for position and he has amazing hands... he does everything you could hope for on the glass.