Is Kyler Murray the answer at QB for next year and beyond?

[DVontel]

How so?

Letting longtime vets like Antoine Bathea, Ahmad Brooks, NaVorro Bowman, Trent Brown, Mike Purcell, etc, dudes who were productive with them while signing nothing of note that same offseason. This is the first offseason under Shanahan & Lynch.

 

[Cheesebeef]

49ers come to mind.

So… the Niners purposefully tanked an entire season like we did to start their rebuild? The Shanhanan Niners? Did they trade away their first pick where they could take the highest impact maker on the board like we did for the promise of the future? No. And forgive me if I’m wrong, but in Shanny-Lynch’s first year, they improved the team from 2-14 to 6-10 and made a big trade, giving up a 2nd rounder midseason for Garrapolo, who they thought was their QB of the future.

 

[Chopper0080]

No it doesn’t, lol.

I’ve literally seen this team end 3-2 in 2016 to not mean poo in 2017 then I seen this team end 3-3 to REALLY not mean poo in 2018.

Chargers ended last season 5-2 just to not mean anything this season.

Saints ended last season 3-3 just to not mean anything this season.

So nah, I’m not buying that at all.

You asked what fans Lions fans were saying after the 2021 season, not if end of season records matter regarding the following year. Two very different questions. Lions fans were saying we have won 3-6. That felt better than the zero wins prior that year. That is a progression.

Cardinals going 1-6 after winning two games earlier in the year would be a regression.

 

[DVontel]

not if end of season records matter regarding the following year.

No, YOU said that they do matter, so I gave you examples of why that’s damn sure not the case.

 

[Chopper0080]

No, YOU said that they do matter, so I gave you examples of why that’s damn sure not the case.

These are our two exchanges...

I’m curious what Detroit fans were saying in 2021 & if it mirrors responses here.

Good question.

They had the bite their knee caps culture instilled.

The Lions won 3 of their last 6 games.

Goff with minimal talent was 332/494, 67.2% compl, 19 TDs, 8 ints. 231.8 yards per game.

Sewell and St Brown were both instant draft hits.

They signed Charles Harris in FA and acquired Michael Brockers in the Stafford trade.

Their offense/defense rankings were equally bad.

Kyler Murray looking like dogshit and winning our games at the beginning of the season vs the end are probably the two biggest differences.

AND

Acknowledging we’re not close to competing serious so a big teardown. Acclimate a bunch of picks while being high enough to draft blue-chip players. Draft premium positions with those picks. Not overplay yourself or the process.

They won 3 games dude. How many games have we currently won so far?

You aren't wrong, but what part of the season you win games does matter in terms of the feeling heading into the following year.

###

"Does matter in terms of the feeling heading into the following year" is not even close to "previous year end of season record determining results for the following year".

 

[Chopper0080]

To site your Dolphins example. The Dolphins were not feeling good heading into the offseason ending on such a bad note, but of course it didn't prohibit them from being successful this season either. That is likely why they fired their DC and hired Fangio.

 

[DVontel]

So… the Niners purposefully tanked an entire season like we did to start their rebuild? The Shanhanan Niners

Yea, pretty much.

Did they trade away their first pick where they could take the highest impact maker on the board like we did for the promise of the future

No, they just took Solomon Thomas.
Legitimately not even sure what this has to do with conversation.

they improved the team from 2-14 to 6-10 and made a big trade, giving up a 2nd rounder midseason for Garrapolo, who they thought was their QB of the future.

You know what, I’ll take an L on this part because I thought the Jimmy trade happened after the 2017 season. That’s my bad.
However, they still didn’t do anything that 2017 off-season, sort of like Monti/Gannon this off-season.

 

[DVontel]

These are our two exchanges...


Good question.

They had the bite their knee caps culture instilled.

The Lions won 3 of their last 6 games.

Goff with minimal talent was 332/494, 67.2% compl, 19 TDs, 8 ints. 231.8 yards per game.

Sewell and St Brown were both instant draft hits.

They signed Charles Harris in FA and acquired Michael Brockers in the Stafford trade.

Their offense/defense rankings were equally bad.

Kyler Murray looking like dogshit and winning our games at the beginning of the season vs the end are probably the two biggest differences.

AND


You aren't wrong, but what part of the season you win games does matter in terms of the feeling heading into the following year.

###

"Does matter in terms of the feeling heading into the following year" is not even close to "previous year end of season record determining results for the following year".

This was the main talking point between K9 & I. So, I don’t know if you’re agreeing with me, with him, going in halfway, etc.

 

[bankybruce]

I don't know if Kyler is the answer. Lots of questions for him and the rest of the Offense aside from RT, TE and the 37 #4 WRs we have on this roster. I do know one thing, it does appear they are trying to see if Kyler can be a pocket passer with only skinny jeans to try on.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Letting longtime vets like Antoine Bathea, Ahmad Brooks, NaVorro Bowman, Trent Brown, Mike Purcell, etc, dudes who were productive with them while signing nothing of note that same offseason. This is the first offseason under Shanahan & Lynch.

Right… they subtracted but also ADDED in FA big money deals, not 1 and 2 year bandaids at best. Signed multiple guys to 4 and 5 year deals,

Pierre Garçon to a 5 YEARS 47 MILLION dollar deal coming off a 1000 yard season.

Signed Kyle Jusyczk, Pro Bowl FB for 4 YEARS, 21 MILLION.

Malcolm Smith, young good linebacker for FIVE YEARS 26.5 MILLION

Earl Mitchell… FOUR YEARS, 16 MILLION.

The Niners made splashes in that FA period. That doesn’t mean they all worked out, but they definitely tried to better the team and guess what, when it wasn’t working well enough mid-season they made a BIG TRADE to get their QBOTF with Garrapolo for a second round pick.

They went from 2-14 to 6-10, getting DEMONSTRABLY BETTER that season. They made big off-season moves AND big midseason moves even when they were bad and that ADDED TO THE TEAM AND WINS.

They did NOT tank. In any way shape
or form.

They did NOTHING like us. To use them as comparison just shows how a team CAN get tear down AND rebuild at the same time. The hilarity of bringing up the Niners is you just pretty much spit in the face of your entire argument all season long that if the Cards dared to try and start the rebuild this season, they’d be doomed to mediocrity forever.

Again, the Niners, Eagles, Ravens have NEVER just punted and tanked an entire season. So holding them up as the plan makes zero sense when we haven’t come close to following their formula so far.

 

[bankybruce]

I think we can all agree that having TE as the most secure position going into the off season is wild!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yea, pretty much.

No, they just took Solomon Thomas.
Legitimately not even sure what this has to do with conversation.

You know what, I’ll take an L on this part because I thought the Jimmy trade happened after the 2017 season. That’s my bad.
However, they still didn’t do anything that 2017 off-season, sort of like Monti/Gannon this off-season.

LOL. Just wrong. Dead wrong.

Pierre Garçon to a 5 YEARS 47 MILLION dollar deal coming off a 1000 yard season.

Signed Kyle Jusyczk, Pro Bowl FB for 4 YEARS, 21 MILLION.

Malcolm Smith, young good linebacker for FIVE YEARS 26.5 MILLION

Earl Mitchell… FOUR YEARS, 16 MILLION.

Now, tell me the big 4 and 5 year deals Monti made this off-season. Oh he didn’t do that and only signed 1 and 2 year bottom of the barrel band-aids? Weird for you to consider those two approaches similar.

In the 2017 49ers off-season, they at least TRIED to instill a culture of winning in Year 1 with multiple big moves in FA and when they weren’t winning, they CONTINUED to try and get better DURING THE SEASON by making the big trade for the QBOTF.

And guess what… it worked! They went from 2-14 to 6-10 and started turning around the culture and building for the future. As opposed to us jettisoning talent with no return and not adding any pieces and going from a pathetic 3-14 team with a host of questions to… a 3-14 team with a host of the same questions.

We both agree that Monti made clear he had no intention of even trying to win in the off-season or build any kind of a winning culture. But Comparing what Monti did to what Lynch did in his first off-season, signing big FAs during the off-season and making big midseason trades is an argument completely without evidence. Right off the bat, Lynch made a commitment to winning. Does it mean all his moves panned out? No. But he kept making moves that entire off-season and in season that showed commitment to getting better in his first year. In Monti’s first year, he made a commitment to losing, by your own admission . Their approaches literally couldn’t be further apart if they tried.

And there’s not a single team amongst the Chiefs/Ravens/Eagles who committed to losing to begin their runs either so continuing to cite those teams as Monti’s model when he’s already spat in the face of everything those teams have done in his first year makes zero sense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

What is yours? Detroit replaced their offensive coordinator after Campbell's first season. They were 3-3 in their last six games. They were showing signs of progress after that first year. Not stagnation, which we have here.



Tua
Goff
Mahomes
Dak
Lawrence
Stafford
Stroud
Jordan Love
Justin Herbert
Kirk Cousins
Joe Burrow
Aaron Rodgers

These are all guys I feel super-confident would be very good with the 2023 49ers. I'm less sure about Derek Carr, Bryce Young, Geno Smith, Kenny Pickett, and Desmond Ridder, but I think it's possible half of them work out.

NFL QB position has kind of been hollowed out this year, hasn't it? I think you could take any "traditional" quarterback and have him run Shanahan's offense pretty efficiently, but there aren't a ton of traditional dropback passers in the NFL today.

So all those guys would be mvp candidates in place of Purdy? Not buying it.

 

[kerouac9]

So all those guys would be mvp candidates in place of Purdy? Not buying it.

You said "have the 49ers offense as effective." Yeah. I don't think Purdy is doing much special. The MVP is the quarterback of the best team/offense. But I think there are a lot of people who could orchestrate that offense really, really well. The evidence is the number of Shanahan disciples around the NFL orchestrating pretty good offenses with somewhat less talent.

 

[DVontel]

Right… they subtracted but also ADDED in FA big money deals, not 1 and 2 year bandaids at best. Signed multiple guys to 4 and 5 year deals,

Pierre Garçon to a 5 YEARS 47 MILLION dollar deal coming off a 1000 yard season.

Signed Kyle Jusyczk, Pro Bowl FB for 4 YEARS, 21 MILLION.

Malcolm Smith, young good linebacker for FIVE YEARS 26.5 MILLION

Earl Mitchell… FOUR YEARS, 16 MILLION.

The Niners made splashes in that FA period. That doesn’t mean they all worked out, but they definitely tried to better the team and guess what, when it wasn’t working well enough mid-season they made a BIG TRADE to get their QBOTF with Garrapolo for a second round pick.

They went from 2-14 to 6-10, getting DEMONSTRABLY BETTER that season. They made big off-season moves AND big midseason moves even when they were bad and that ADDED TO THE TEAM AND WINS.

They did NOT tank. In any way shape
or form.

They did NOTHING like us. To use them as comparison just shows how a team CAN get tear down AND rebuild at the same time. The hilarity of bringing up the Niners is you just pretty much spit in the face of your entire argument all season long that if the Cards dared to try and start the rebuild this season, they’d be doomed to mediocrity forever.

Again, the Niners, Eagles, Ravens have NEVER just punted and tanked an entire season. So holding them up as the plan makes zero sense when we haven’t come close to following their formula so far.

LOL. Just wrong. Dead wrong.

Pierre Garçon to a 5 YEARS 47 MILLION dollar deal coming off a 1000 yard season.

Signed Kyle Jusyczk, Pro Bowl FB for 4 YEARS, 21 MILLION.

Malcolm Smith, young good linebacker for FIVE YEARS 26.5 MILLION

Earl Mitchell… FOUR YEARS, 16 MILLION.

Now, tell me the big 4 and 5 year deals Monti made this off-season. Oh he didn’t do that and only signed 1 and 2 year bottom of the barrel band-aids? Weird for you to consider those two approaches similar.

In the 2017 49ers off-season, they at least TRIED to instill a culture of winning in Year 1 with multiple big moves in FA and when they weren’t winning, they CONTINUED to try and get better DURING THE SEASON by making the big trade for the QBOTF.

And guess what… it worked! They went from 2-14 to 6-10 and started turning around the culture and building for the future. As opposed to us jettisoning talent with no return and not adding any pieces and going from a pathetic 3-14 team with a host of questions to… a 3-14 team with a host of the same questions.

We both agree that Monti made clear he had no intention of even trying to win in the off-season or build any kind of a winning culture. But Comparing what Monti did to what Lynch did in his first off-season, signing big FAs during the off-season and making big midseason trades is an argument completely without evidence. Right off the bat, Lynch made a commitment to winning. Does it mean all his moves panned out? No. But he kept making moves that entire off-season and in season that showed commitment to getting better in his first year. In Monti’s first year, he made a commitment to losing, by your own admission . Their approaches literally couldn’t be further apart if they tried.

And there’s not a single team amongst the Chiefs/Ravens/Eagles who committed to losing to begin their runs either so continuing to cite those teams as Monti’s model when he’s already spat in the face of everything those teams have done in his first year makes zero sense.

I know you didn’t just sit on the same post for 20 minutes editing & adding. Boyyyy, you felt really good about this.

Now, tell me the big 4 and 5 year deals Monti made this off-season. Oh he didn’t do that and only signed 1 and 2 year bottom of the barrel band-aids? Weird for you to consider those two approaches similar.

Not sure why the length of the deals even matter. Actually, why does it matter to you? You basically telling me you would have been fine if Kyzir, Froholdt, Pascal, & Daley all got 4-5 year contracts instead of two?

In the 2017 49ers off-season, they at least TRIED to instill a culture of winning in Year 1 with multiple big moves in FA

By overpaying & falling on their ass. You’re telling me you’re cool with overpaying than underpaying.

they CONTINUED to try and get better DURING THE SEASON by making the big trade for the QBOTF.

You can read, correct? I literally said I took an L for this & the reason being was in the initial post to this.

And guess what… it worked! They went from 2-14 to 6-10 and started turning around the culture and building for the future. As opposed to us jettisoning talent with no return and not adding any pieces and going from a pathetic 3-14 team with a host of questions to… a 3-14 team with a host of the same questions.

It mainly worked because they were able to draft great, especially starting in 2019 & so on. Outside of Jusczcyk, the pieces you named, them guys didn’t do anything. It turns out they made the mistake of overpaying those guys’ value instead of their actually value.

We both agree that Monti made clear he had no intention of even trying to win in the off-season or build any kind of a winning culture. But Comparing what Monti did to what Lynch did in his first off-season, signing big FAs during the off-season and making big midseason trades is an argument completely without evidence.

In the off-season, the only difference between what Lynch & Monti did is Lynch signed guys for longer contracts, which obviously Lynch himself probably regretted. He didn’t sign any huge FA on the market, he didn’t massively overpay for guys passed their prime.

And there’s not a single team amongst the Chiefs/Ravens/Eagles who committed to losing to begin their runs either so continuing to cite those teams as Monti’s model when he’s already spat in the face of everything those teams have done in his first year makes zero sense

Damn, it’s almost like a reason I gave you the 49ers when you asked what team had a model like what Monti is following. Keep up.

Those other teams’ models are a bit different, but their standard is still the same.

 

[TheCardFan]

This is why we are still acting like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football about Kyler.

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[TheCardFan]

And then there is this...

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[Krangodnzr]

No one is saying he’s the best QB ever. Lol. Maybe you need to adjust your benchmarks.

How many “game managers” have ever been considered legitimate candidates for mvp?

By your definition it seems you would’ve considered montana a game manager. I mean he had comparable talent surrounding him and no special physical attributes.

And now you mention him in the same sentence as Montana!

Bro he's a smidge above average.

He's an MVP candidate because QBs are pretty much all playing poorly this year.

 

[kerouac9]

And now you mention him in the same sentence as Montana!

Bro he's a smidge above average.

He's an MVP candidate because QBs are pretty much all playing poorly this year.

Jerry Rice compared him to Joe Montana

 

[PJ1]

I keep hearing we have so many holes to fill.
With that being said we aren’t going to be able to fill those holes in one year.

The biggest fear I have is going into 2025 with the same problem at qb and having to give up draft capital to get a decent qb or sign a free agent. This goes against everything MO ‘s apparent philosophy.

So, why not draft a qb? With our second pick in the first round we take a wr and add a free agent wr. Kyler gets his weapons with a chance to excel. We have insurance should Kyler suck or get hurt, which either one is possible. And maybe, MAYBE, the rookie qb could actually play like Stroud and outperform the incumbent. MAYBE, it would light a fire under Kyler. And if it did Maye or Williams would easily recoup draft capital. Or Kyler would recoup draft capital more than he would right now.

And we still have free agency a gazillions draft picks to add to the defense.
Yes, I know, we’d be passing on MHJ. But as things are as of today would adding him be the missing piece to suddenly allow Kyler to “ blossom”? I don’t think a majority of the people on this forum believe that.

I also believe if we weren’t tied to Kyler with this ridiculous contract MOST would be screaming for us to use our first pick for a qb.

It appears We have two apparent problems on why this offense sucks, WR’s and, at this time, qb play. Get the wr’s solves one. Drafting a qb is an insurance policy should qb continues to be a problem.

I would love to be there when they tell KM we drafted Maye or Williams. Oh but you’re still the starter. LOL

 

[Krangodnzr]

Jerry Rice compared him to Joe Montana

LOL hilarious hearing you make this point when you have always said what players say about other players is meaningless.

 

[FB94]

Still on the fence about KM, but I do realize he is handicapped somewhat by the WR room he currently has. At this point he will most likely still be a Cardinal next year. If the draft and FA provide upgrades at OL and WR and he still lacks improved performance then we will absolutely be looking at a QB after next year. No more excuses with a full off season and training camp healthy.

 

[BullheadCardFan]

I would love to be there when they tell KM we drafted Maye or Williams. Oh but you’re still the starter. LOL

It's never personal, it's just business

The team comes above any player first and foremost

 

[Crimson Warrior]

I would love to be there when they tell KM we drafted Maye or Williams. Oh but you’re still the starter. LOL

Yeah, it'd be a real tough break for Murray not to be part of this first-class, A+ winning machine the Bidwill Family has built in ARZ.

 

[Stout]

Still on the fence about KM, but I do realize he is handicapped somewhat by the WR room he currently has. At this point he will most likely still be a Cardinal next year. If the draft and FA provide upgrades at OL and WR and he still lacks improved performance then we will absolutely be looking at a QB after next year. No more excuses with a full off season and training camp healthy.

No, no more excuses, full stop. He's a 5-year vet. No excuses remain to him.