What’s Wrong with Murray?

dreamcastrocks

Chopped Liver Moderator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Posts
45,728
Reaction score
10,973
I think we can be careful here. Kyler can run through progressions, but his timing is a mess. I'm sure part/most of it is because he's never been in a timing offense in the 20 years he's been playing football. That said, it feels like Jonathan Gannon and Drew Petzing promised us they were going to design an offense to Kyler's strengths.

It feels like we do a good job mostly staying on schedule and not getting forced into passing situations. We don't start pressing when we're down two+ scores (because we don't care). Asking Kyler to make timing throws seems like a mistake.
This is the part where I'm saddened. I don't think they did that.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
38,066
Reaction score
20,685
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
This is the part where I'm saddened. I don't think they did that.
Because Kyler needs to be able to play in a real NFL offense. You can always tailor aspects of the offense to the QB. Lamar is the exception, very much so, and not the rule. If you have a good QB you don't have to design the entire offense around them. You tweak the offense to take advantage of their skill set.

I think, if Kyler's here next season, we'll see the coaches do that. Sadly, I think they've treated 2023 as an extended preseason, which is idiotic on so many levels within this organization.
 

slanidrac16

ASFN Icon
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2002
Posts
15,007
Reaction score
14,441
Location
Plainfield, Il.
Because Kyler needs to be able to play in a real NFL offense. You can always tailor aspects of the offense to the QB. Lamar is the exception, very much so, and not the rule. If you have a good QB you don't have to design the entire offense around them. You tweak the offense to take advantage of their skill set.

I think, if Kyler's here next season, we'll see the coaches do that. Sadly, I think they've treated 2023 as an extended preseason, which is idiotic on so many levels within this organization.
Kyler was brought up in a sandlot offense. He played against inferior talent a could get away with just about anything.

He now plays in a league where the tallest guy in college is now the shortest. The fastest guy in college is now the slowest.

This league is structured and designed. Call a play, read the defense and react accordingly. Play A is covered, go to option B. That’s covered to so go to option C.
It’s 1-2-3 and throw. It’s throw to this open area before your wr is there.

This ain’t Kyler and I’m not sure he can “learn” this in one off season.
 

netsnjkidd

Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2021
Posts
132
Reaction score
288
Location
08060
Nothing changes if he doesn't fire daddy dearest and get a real QB coach.
That be something id like to see to, part of him being serious of being the franchise qb. He needs someone to go through with him in really learning a nfl offense. This is a big off-season for kyler to prove ppl right or wrong.
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,460
Reaction score
16,601
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Whoever the QB is, this team does not have a #1 WR. Brown, if healthy, is a good #2 I would imagine, but can only say I imagine because one cannot judge the rest of your WRs without a legit #1. A #1 WR changes the entire coverage of the defense and if not you would need #1s across the board to succeed, same as having a legit pass rusher. You can only fabricate receptions and sacks for so long when superior talent used properly is the key to making and doing something in the playoffs
 

slanidrac16

ASFN Icon
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2002
Posts
15,007
Reaction score
14,441
Location
Plainfield, Il.
That be something id like to see to, part of him being serious of being the franchise qb. He needs someone to go through with him in really learning a nfl offense. This is a big off-season for kyler to prove ppl right or wrong.
So sick off hearing this. Is Daddy at the Cards facility coaching him? Does Kyler go home and call Daddy? Is Kylee listening to Daddy and disregarding his the coaching he’s getting?
More lame ass excuses.
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,460
Reaction score
16,601
Location
San Antonio, Texas
That be something id like to see to, part of him being serious of being the franchise qb. He needs someone to go through with him in really learning a nfl offense. This is a big off-season for kyler to prove ppl right or wrong.
I think he is very serious about being a franchise QB, and that is what is concerning because he has not shown this while having the proper attitude. Is it recovering from the injury, or adapting to a more traditional offense... or is it fitting a square peg in a circle
 

slanidrac16

ASFN Icon
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2002
Posts
15,007
Reaction score
14,441
Location
Plainfield, Il.
Whoever the QB is, this team does not have a #1 WR. Brown, if healthy, is a good #2 I would imagine, but can only say I imagine because one cannot judge the rest of your WRs without a legit #1. A #1 WR changes the entire coverage of the defense and if not, and if this was not the case, you would need #1s across the board to succeed, same as having a legit pass rusher. You can only fabricate receptions and sacks for so long when superior talent used properly is the key to making and doing something in the playoffs
Hello JS! I’m going to respectfully disagree with you about Brown. He MIGHT be a #3 for #3 money. We traded a 1st round pick and getting 4th round performance.
He’s small, not as fast as we are made to believe, he has no intention of ever blocking, he lacks fight for the ball attitude and for whatever reason has a real hard time creating separation.

There are Wr in free agency that we can sign for about the same money or less and get better production. It would be one thing if he was under contract but he’s not. If we resign him “ for Kyler” I will be totally pissed.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
88,297
Reaction score
60,849
That be something id like to see to, part of him being serious of being the franchise qb. He needs someone to go through with him in really learning a nfl offense. This is a big off-season for kyler to prove ppl right or wrong.

Your last sentence is now been uttered at the end of this season, just as it was last season, and the season before that post the atrocious second half collapse and brutal playoff embarassment AND even the season before that, which ended in his first awful second half of the season meltdown.

And in the last two seasons, he’s only gotten worse than he was during his first three promising seasons.

If you’re asking that question after a QB’s second season, I get it. That’s pretty early in his career and he’s given good reason to hope for improvement. I can even see teetering about him being able to prove people wrong after year 3 because of the heights reached during the first half of that season. But when you’re STILL asking that question post Season 5, where he’s only gotten worse the last 2 seasons, and is now coming major question marks in four straight off-seasons, I think you have your answer.
 
Last edited:

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,460
Reaction score
16,601
Location
San Antonio, Texas
Hello JS! I’m going to respectfully disagree with you about Brown. He MIGHT be a #3 for #3 money. We traded a 1st round pick and getting 4th round performance.
He’s small, not as fast as we are made to believe, he has no intention of ever blocking, he lacks fight for the ball attitude and for whatever reason has a real hard time creating separation.

There are Wr in free agency that we can sign for about the same money or less and get better production. It would be one thing if he was under contract but he’s not. If we resign him “ for Kyler” I will be totally pissed.
Like I said, I would imagine, but I accept him being a luxury deep threat too. Again, this team has no elite WR and no elite pass rusher. Without that, not even a competent game managing QB would be able to win anything
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
60,190
Reaction score
51,788
Location
SoCal
i have seen QBs that werent timing throwers and became good enough at it

both Tua and Jalen Hurts both had issues with it, but have not become good at it

Lamar Jackson was a mess early on -- but his passing has come a long way

even Josh Allen relied on his arm to wait until guys were open and then drilled it in there -- he has gotten better

part of getting better at something is being challenged to get better at it. I wonder if Kliff made that a point or not
My question wasn’t whether it can be an acquired skill. It was can a QB be good without the skill.
 

dreamcastrocks

Chopped Liver Moderator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2005
Posts
45,728
Reaction score
10,973
Because Kyler needs to be able to play in a real NFL offense. You can always tailor aspects of the offense to the QB. Lamar is the exception, very much so, and not the rule. If you have a good QB you don't have to design the entire offense around them. You tweak the offense to take advantage of their skill set.

Chicago is doing the same with Fields right now. This offense needs much more misdirection, and moving the pocket around in order to put Kyler in the best position to proceed.
I think, if Kyler's here next season, we'll see the coaches do that. Sadly, I think they've treated 2023 as an extended preseason, which is idiotic on so many levels within this organization.
I don't think we will.
 

Jetstream Green

Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Joined
Feb 5, 2003
Posts
29,460
Reaction score
16,601
Location
San Antonio, Texas
It's like this, I think the Murrays and Jacksons of the league have a chance at winning a championship, if you surround them with the proper players and scheme. But, you will have no prolong success with this type of QB
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
60,190
Reaction score
51,788
Location
SoCal
Feel like I keep reading the same posts with the same replies in different threads.
That’s where we are right now. What other topics should we discuss?

Has anyone seen zaven collins?

Should demercado get more snaps than Carter?

Mo Fro!

There’s just not a lot of compelling topics surrounding this relatively talentless, poorly performing, unproven coach and front office team at present.
 

DVontel

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
12,412
Reaction score
21,231
That’s where we are right now. What other topics should we discuss?

Has anyone seen zaven collins?

Should demercado get more snaps than Carter?

Mo Fro!

There’s just not a lot of compelling topics surrounding this relatively talentless, poorly performing, unproven coach and front office team at present.
Wouldn’t mind seeing more in-depth analysis/discussions on the rookies tbh.

Also more in-depth discussions about non-QB players in the draft & why/why not they would fit Petzing/Gannon’s scheme.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
36,720
Reaction score
26,401
Location
Gilbert, AZ
Wouldn’t mind seeing more in-depth analysis/discussions on the rookies tbh.

Also more in-depth discussions about non-QB players in the draft & why/why not they would fit Petzing/Gannon’s scheme.
Which rookies are playing right now?

I feel like we had the Michael Wilson conversation over the past few weeks.

Dante Stills is outplaying his draft position and looks like a rotational DT on the Cards next playoff team. He'll be a 28 year-old free agent.

Garrett Williams had a fast start to his NFL career, but teams have been targeting outside targets more often of late. He has been targeted 26 times in eight games and was inactive last week.

B.J. Ojulari had fewer tackles than Myjai Sanders last week. If you criticize him you're told that this is a redshirt year and he's only 21 years old so he shouldn't be held to a higher standard than, like, Victor Dimukege.

The early victory laps people were taking on Paris Johnson Junior have slowed significantly. He's shown himself to be about an average right tackle. I'm extremely skeptical of people projecting him to the left side, but I thought the same thing with Humphries when he started his career on the right.

Kei'Trel Clark has been benched in favor of Starling Thomas, who is allowing a 123.2 QB rating when targeted, if you're into that kind of thing.

I didn't notice Owen Pappoe on his season-high 35 defensive snaps last Sunday, but he had two tackles. One was 12 yards past the line of scrimmage on third and five; the other was when the Bears were killing clock on their last drive.

Five of the nine players in our draft class play defense. One started the season and was benched in favor of an undrafted free agent; one got their first defensive snaps because three veterans ahead of them on the depth chart were injured.
 

netsnjkidd

Veteran
Joined
Jul 31, 2021
Posts
132
Reaction score
288
Location
08060
Your last sentence is now been uttered at the end of this season, just as it was last season, and the season before that post the atrocious second half collapse and brutal playoff embarassment AND even the season before that, which ended in his first awful second half of the season meltdown.

And in the last two seasons, he’s only gotten worse than he was during his first three “promising” seasons.

If you’re asking that question after a QB’s second season, I get it. That’s pretty early in his career and he’s given good reason to hope for improvement. I can even see teetering about him being able to prove people wrong after year 3 because of the heights reached during the first half of that season. But when you’re STILL asking that question post Season 5, where he’s only gotten worse the last 2 seasons, and is now coming major question marks in four straight off-seasons, I think you have your answer.
When Stafford was playing in Detroit for 6+ yrs. who would of thought he be a superbowl champ, he was labeled as a stat padder. Tlaw looked terrible when urban meyers was running a clown show. Now his got an NFL coach is running the show he looks competent.

kliff was running a college offense and keim was a drunk. This is the first time in kyler career there is somewhat stability. I want one offseason to see how he looks no rehab just working on his craft with actually nfl coaching.
 
Last edited:

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
88,297
Reaction score
60,849
When Stafford was playing in Detroit for 6+ yrs. He would of thought he be a superbowl champ, he was labeled as a stat padder. Tlaw looked terrible when urban meyers was running a clown show. Now his got an NFL coach is running the show he looks competent.

kliff was running a college offense and keim was a drunk. This is the first time in kyler career there is somewhat stability. I want one offseason to see how he looks no rehab just working on his craft with actually nfl coaching.
Stafford's a good example to counter my thoughts. Jury's out on Lawrence. I expected much more from him and he's been pretty mid so far with decent talent around him the last two years.
 

DVontel

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
12,412
Reaction score
21,231
Which rookies are playing right now?

I feel like we had the Michael Wilson conversation over the past few weeks.

Dante Stills is outplaying his draft position and looks like a rotational DT on the Cards next playoff team. He'll be a 28 year-old free agent.

Garrett Williams had a fast start to his NFL career, but teams have been targeting outside targets more often of late. He has been targeted 26 times in eight games and was inactive last week.

B.J. Ojulari had fewer tackles than Myjai Sanders last week. If you criticize him you're told that this is a redshirt year and he's only 21 years old so he shouldn't be held to a higher standard than, like, Victor Dimukege.

The early victory laps people were taking on Paris Johnson Junior have slowed significantly. He's shown himself to be about an average right tackle. I'm extremely skeptical of people projecting him to the left side, but I thought the same thing with Humphries when he started his career on the right.

Kei'Trel Clark has been benched in favor of Starling Thomas, who is allowing a 123.2 QB rating when targeted, if you're into that kind of thing.

I didn't notice Owen Pappoe on his season-high 35 defensive snaps last Sunday, but he had two tackles. One was 12 yards past the line of scrimmage on third and five; the other was when the Bears were killing clock on their last drive.

Five of the nine players in our draft class play defense. One started the season and was benched in favor of an undrafted free agent; one got their first defensive snaps because three veterans ahead of them on the depth chart were injured.
Yea, the Starling over Clark one is so puzzling to me. The fact that Starling is also a rookie is driving me wild.
 
Top