The Ayton Plan

[Chaplin]

Exactly. However, I suspect the Jazz will look for more offense from their center.

That is true, but you can't use the "system" as reasoning why Ayton will go farther with the Jazz than Gobert ever did.

 

[Mainstreet]

No but the reverse is also true which isn't a glowing endorsement for Ayton. I mean NOBODY would be shocked if they were worse. That alone is a huge statement about where Ayton is at this point in his career. Guess what? Many teams seem to agree, or teams would be lining up for Ayton.

We've been through the sign-and-trade scenarios.

 

[Finito]

Jazz look like there going full rebuild there’s a lot of Rumors about Mitchell being on the move.

He wants to go to the Knicks and the Knicks have a ton of assets

 

[Covert Rain]

We've been through the sign-and-trade scenarios.

What is your point? Early on during the FA period, there were a bunch of opportunities that dried up. At the end of the day, the Suns have struggled to find trade partners for Ayton in a direct or 3 way trade because teams seemingly agree with the Suns he is not a max player. That is the point I am making. If this was Doncic? Teams would be moving mountains to get cap space and get their hands on him.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with I guess?

 

[Mainstreet]

Except that isn’t a metric. It’s complete speculators fantasy with literally nothing to back it up. One of the reasons the Jazz even win 50 games per year is because of Gobert’s dominance in the paint, covering for their lack of perimeter defenders.

Throw Ayton on a team with zero perimeter defensers as your anchor downlow and that D isn’t close to being as good.

You are only looking at the defensive side of the ball. Have to consider both ends of the court.

 

[Finito]

That is true, but you can't use the "system" as reasoning why Ayton will go farther with the Jazz than Gobert ever did.

System ain’t got nothing to do with it. Jazz will only go as far as Mitchell can take them if he stays and in my opinion he’s proven he ain’t that dude to carry a team

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Paul, Payne
Book, Lee
Hield, Crowder
KD, Okogie
Turner, Biyombo

If Payne wasn’t on his game that second 5 would really struggle to get buckets.

 

[Chaplin]

What is your point? Early on during the FA period, there were a bunch of opportunities that dried up. At the end of the day, the Suns have struggled to find trade partners for Ayton in a direct or 3 way trade because teams seemingly agree with the Suns he is not a max player. That is the point I am making. If this was Doncic? Teams would be moving mountains to get cap space and get their hands on him.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with I guess?

To be fair, that is just speculation. No movement doesn't necessarily mean that there are no trade partners out there. Since James Jones took over, the Suns front office has been the most secretive I've ever seen it be. It's maddening.

 

[Chaplin]

System ain’t got nothing to do with it. Jazz will only go as far as Mitchell can take them if he stays and in my opinion he’s proven he ain’t that dude to carry a team

Main said that in the Jazz system Ayton would take the Jazz farther than Gobert. I was arguing against that. There's no system and Ayton is a good defender but he's not the rim protector Gobert is.

Would Ayton's better offense make up for Gobert's better defense? Maybe, but not in whatever the Jazz's system was before Quin walked away.

 

[Mainstreet]

What is your point? Early on during the FA period, there were a bunch of opportunities that dried up. At the end of the day, the Suns have struggled to find trade partners for Ayton in a direct or 3 way trade because teams seemingly agree with the Suns he is not a max player. That is the point I am making. If this was Doncic? Teams would be moving mountains to get cap space and get their hands on him.

Not sure what you are disagreeing with I guess?

Sign-and-trade limits trade partners.

 

[Covert Rain]

To be fair, that is just speculation. No movement doesn't necessarily mean that there are no trade partners out there. Since James Jones took over, the Suns front office has been the most secretive I've ever seen it be. It's maddening.

It's all speculation but the rumor mills all have been pretty consistent. I didn't say NO trade partners. I said no trade partners willing to pay max. There is a difference. I said from day one had Ayton's camp not demanded max so publicly or expressed they would take 20 to 25 million more partners would have emerged.

 

[Covert Rain]

Sign-and-trade limits trade partners.

OK. Doesn't change the fact there was more opportunity at the start verses now. There were a bunch more teams with cap space or teams that could have made cap space moves then been involved. Like I said above. People would be moving mountains if we had and were trying to trade Doncic. There is no question.

 

[elindholm]

Had that been rumored months prior? If so, that’s a good example.

It had been rumored that both were on the way out, but whether there were rumors that they would be traded for each other, I can't remember.

 

[elindholm]

(per FLEX from New Jersey): Friendly reminder this potential Ayton deal doesn't affects (sic) anything with Durant.

It doesn't? Aren't there rules about how quickly players can be re-traded after S&Ts? If the Suns make an Ayton/Turner deal without looping the Nets in as part of the same trade, I think Durant is off the table. He'll be traded somewhere else by the time the Suns can get their act together again.

I really want to see what other value Jones can extract from the Pacers. Ayton for Turner and a couple of picks is garbage.

 

[Chaplin]

It doesn't? Aren't there rules about how quickly players can be re-traded after S&Ts? If the Suns make an Ayton/Turner deal without looping the Nets in as part of the same trade, I think Durant is off the table. He'll be traded somewhere else by the time the Suns can get their act together again.

I really want to see what other value Jones can extract from the Pacers. Ayton for Turner and a couple of picks is garbage.

I think the implication is those couple of picks would be used in a Durant trade, not Turner.

 

[Mainstreet]

It doesn't? Aren't there rules about how quickly players can be re-traded after S&Ts? If the Suns make an Ayton/Turner deal without looping the Nets in as part of the same trade, I think Durant is off the table. He'll be traded somewhere else by the time the Suns can get their act together again.

I really want to see what other value Jones can extract from the Pacers. Ayton for Turner and a couple of picks is garbage.

Ayton is not considered as an ingredient to complete a trade for Durant. It would hard cap them.

The Suns could use draft picks from the Pacers in a trade for Durant.

 

[Covert Rain]

It doesn't? Aren't there rules about how quickly players can be re-traded after S&Ts? If the Suns make an Ayton/Turner deal without looping the Nets in as part of the same trade, I think Durant is off the table. He'll be traded somewhere else by the time the Suns can get their act together again.

I really want to see what other value Jones can extract from the Pacers. Ayton for Turner and a couple of picks is garbage.

Flex has been all over the place with imminent deals, illegal 3 way trades etc. with Ayton. Now, I think what he is assuming is that an Ayton deal would be a separate transaction unrelated to a KD deal. So, if that is the case he is right but it's not anything everybody else has been saying.

 

[Finito]

Main said that in the Jazz system Ayton would take the Jazz farther than Gobert. I was arguing against that. There's no system and Ayton is a good defender but he's not the rim protector Gobert is.

Would Ayton's better offense make up for Gobert's better defense? Maybe, but not in whatever the Jazz's system was before Quin walked away.

It’s give and take on defense Gobert is a great rim protector but he’s helpless on the perimeter Ayton is the opposite he’s a stud on the perimeter

So he doesn’t player “better” defense just different defense and on offense Ayton is head and shoulders better.

 

[elindholm]

I think the implication is those couple of picks would be used in a Durant trade, not Turner.

Oh! So the Suns keep Turner even in a Durant deal? That means parting with both Bridges and Johnson, at a minimum. This team may end up being completely gutted.

A starting lineup of Turner/Durant/nobody/Booker/Paul, with a bench of nobody/nobody/nobody, has 50-and-fade written all over it.

 

[AzStevenCal]

And we literally have heard NONE of this? Come on Steve.

Here’s what we know… we didn’t offer him a MAX deal last off-season and as a FA, there’s been no word about us offering him a contract this off-season. It’s just not hard to see what’s happening here.

Yes, it's easy to see what's happening here. We didn't offer him a Max deal last offseason and there's been no word of us offering him a contract this offseason. That's what's happening here. Everything else is just guess, rumor, speculation or agenda driven nonsense until proven otherwise AFAIC.

Could we be giving up Ayton for garbage? Sure. We've been stupid before, no reason to think we've moved beyond that as long as Sarver is the owner. But we also know that almost everything that's happened involving the Suns since JJ joined the organization has caught us by surprise.

 

[Proximo]

And we literally have heard NONE of this? Come on Steve.

Here’s what we know… we didn’t offer him a MAX deal last off-season and as a FA, there’s been no word about us offering him a contract this off-season. It’s just not hard to see what’s happening here.

Even if he did say that, I would still wait till the midseason deadline and get the best offer possible. Some team at that point will pay more because they will think he might put them over the edge.

 

[Proximo]

I think the implication is those couple of picks would be used in a Durant trade, not Turner.

I think it would be both. Suns don't want Turner, because he wants a big contract and is on the last year of his deal. He is also a more valuable expiring guy to the Nets than a Saric or Shamet would be.

 

[Mainstreet]

There are also other options like a three or four team trade.

Basically it's best to view an Ayton sign-and-trade as separate from a trade for Durant although draft picks could be used in such a trade.

 

[Proximo]

Oh! So the Suns keep Turner even in a Durant deal? That means parting with both Bridges and Johnson, at a minimum. This team may end up being completely gutted.

A starting lineup of Turner/Durant/nobody/Booker/Paul, with a bench of nobody/nobody/nobody, has 50-and-fade written all over it.

Maybe.

I still think we would ship Turner instead of Mikal.

But yeah, we will have to get some contributions out of nobodys, but that's not impossible.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think it would be both. Suns don't want Turner, because he wants a big contract and is on the last year of his deal. He is also a more valuable expiring guy to the Nets than a Saric or Shamet would be.

I don't think that is the case. I think there is rule against trading Turner because he was included to make cap numbers work. So, this might be a case where the Suns are taking what they can get.

"Players who were recently traded can be flipped again immediately. However, unless they were acquired via cap room, they can't be traded again immediately in a deal that aggregates their salary with another player's for matching purposes."

That would include Turner correct in this case? He is being included to make the numbers work. I don't know if that means the Suns have to be under the cap at the time of the trade or under the cap after the transaction. All these rules are confusing.