"The Trade"

Krangodnzr

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I tend to agree with you on the regrets with Cooper DeJean and Adams over Beebe. We made our pick of who to go to the prom with and must live with the results.

Here's Adams eval of NFL.com:

Here's Beebe:

Beebe is getting critiqued for having short arms. Last I checked, they ended at his fingers. It looks as if Adams got the nod based on his run blocking and ability to get to the next level. Cards are looking to really build that run OL and can pair him with his TE bud from Illinois.
At the end of the day, you have to trust your scouts and coaches.

Beebe doesn't move that well, even for a guard.
 

GimmedaBall

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At the end of the day, you have to trust your scouts and coaches.

Beebe doesn't move that well, even for a guard.
We've been down that road with the Cards many times in the past---trusting your (meaning the Cards) scouts and coaches. (We'll take that tackle over that RB).

On every single measure taken at the Combine, Beebe is ahead of Adams. At some point, that Combine info has to go into the equation. If Beebe doesn't move that well---the same can be said for Adams and then some. Beebe outperformed Adams on every single measurement (cone drill, dash, etc)

Adams had a Combine score of 71 and ranked #12 among all guards. Beebe had a Combine score of 82 and ranked #2 among guards. So, what puts Adams ahead of Beebe???

The one trait that Adams may have over Beebe is an aggressive attitude. In that case, he may be what the Cards are looking for. Some smash-mouth OL play and a dominant run game may be the goal.
 

Garthshort

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Gimme, this will be (Beebe/Adams) an interesting story to watch this year. Hope our guy is better, but I have no idea if he is. I do know that talent evaluation depends upon how scouts think he'll perform at the pro level and not at the college level. As a fan, I find it very hard to pick out who the good IOL's are, and am looking forward to TC and PS games, to see if Adams gets to start/play.
 

CardNots

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Gimme, this will be (Beebe/Adams) an interesting story to watch this year. Hope our guy is better, but I have no idea if he is. I do know that talent evaluation depends upon how scouts think he'll perform at the pro level and not at the college level. As a fan, I find it very hard to pick out who the good IOL's are, and am looking forward to TC and PS games, to see if Adams gets to start/play.
Too many storylines for this year’s camp. Maybe the most interesting camp ever.
 
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Fitz4Ever

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I dont care about anything that draft guys said about Beebe. I care about what he did during his 2 seasons at LG...and Ive watched his tape. He is the power blocking road grader that some people on here are hoping Adams will be. Beebe smashes people and plays hard every play. He is as good as it gets in terms of college LG. 27 consecutive starts at LG and almost universally thought of as the best LG in the country for the last 2 season.

  • 2022: Second-team Associated Press All-American. Big 12 Offensive Lineman of the Year. First-team All-Big 12 Conference. Started all 14 games at left guard.
  • 2023: First-team Associated Press All-American. Big 12 Conference Offensive Lineman of the Year. First-team All-Big 12 Conference. Finalist for the Outland Trophy (given to the nation's top interior lineman-OL/DL) and the William V. Campbell Trophy (aka, the Academic Heisman). Started all 13 games at left guard. First consensus All-American offensive lineman in school history.
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Krangodnzr

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We've been down that road with the Cards many times in the past---trusting your (meaning the Cards) scouts and coaches. (We'll take that tackle over that RB).

On every single measure taken at the Combine, Beebe is ahead of Adams. At some point, that Combine info has to go into the equation. If Beebe doesn't move that well---the same can be said for Adams and then some. Beebe outperformed Adams on every single measurement (cone drill, dash, etc)
With IOL, combine measureables don't matter quite as but other than the short shuttle.
Adams had a Combine score of 71 and ranked #12 among all guards. Beebe had a Combine score of 82 and ranked #2 among guards. So, what puts Adams ahead of Beebe???
I don't look at those "rankings", I look at RAS which is what NFL teams look at. Cooper did perform better, but Cooper has REALLY short arms. He has T Rex arms (31 inch), while Adams has close to the 34 inch arms which is a huge factor even on the inside. Ask your wife if three inches matter LOL.
The one trait that Adams may have over Beebe is an aggressive attitude. In that case, he may be what the Cards are looking for. Some smash-mouth OL play and a dominant run game may be the goal.
Agree that attitude matters a lot and the Cardinals really liked working with him at the Senior Bowl.

I was initially flummoxed by the pick, but when that happens, I dig down and see why the pick was made and I'm really excited about him.
 

CardNots

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I dont care about anything that draft guys said about Beebe. I care about what he did during his 2 seasons at LG...and Ive watched his tape. He is the power blocking road grader that some people on here are hoping Adams will be. Beebe smashes people and plays hard every play. He is as good as it gets in terms of college LG. 27 consecutive starts at LG and almost universally thought of as the best LG in the country for the last 2 season.

  • 2022: Second-team Associated Press All-American. Big 12 Offensive Lineman of the Year. First-team All-Big 12 Conference. Started all 14 games at left guard.
  • 2023: First-team Associated Press All-American. Big 12 Conference Offensive Lineman of the Year. First-team All-Big 12 Conference. Finalist for the Outland Trophy (given to the nation's top interior lineman-OL/DL) and the William V. Campbell Trophy (aka, the Academic Heisman). Started all 13 games at left guard. First consensus All-American offensive lineman in school history.
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Will you ever be able to resolve in your mind why they chose Adams over Beebe? Probably not, right?

For me it was simple, they had a choice which is a great position to be in.

I can see how this decision is the replacement for the Anderson/Paris debate.
 

GimmedaBall

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I care about what he did during his 2 seasons at LG...and Ive watched his tape. He is the power blocking road grader that some people on here are hoping Adams will be
Great supporting statement for Beebe over Adams. If you can play Devil's Advocate, why do you think the Cards took Adams over Beebe when they had their choice? (I admit I was surprised by the pick).
 

GimmedaBall

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My understanding was that the team was worried, that the pick would not go over big with this Board, and decided to do it anyway. So they must really like him.
Yes. Surely you are right. After they checked in with Beavis and Butthead on the pick, they tallied up the expected reaction of this Board and made the pick. I know, don't call you Surely.
 

Fitz4Ever

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Great supporting statement for Beebe over Adams. If you can play Devil's Advocate, why do you think the Cards took Adams over Beebe when they had their choice? (I admit I was surprised by the pick).
Because it seemed like they picked players based on their Senior Bowl practices...rather than on years of tape. This is an example of "we know better than everyone else" and it RARELY works. There is a reason Beebe was considered the top LG for 2 years leading up to the draft...and a reason he got the awards he did. That isnt based on draft experts...that is based on on the field play.

Even if you wanted to argue that Adams was a guy they wanted to get as a "sleeper" because they saw something in him during the Senior Bowl...then fine...but you don't take that kind of sleeper at pick #71 of the draft. You take a guy like that in the 5th round or later. He's a "sleeper" for a reason.

Adams hasnt even played LG in over a year. When he did he was "honorable mention" in the Big 10....while Beebe was Big 12 Offensive lineman of the year 2 consecutive times. Adams is not going to beat out Elijah Wilkinson, and its arguable that he will be able to beat out John Gaines, who we drafted in the 4th round last year but was hurt.

My entire problem is that we drafted a backup at PICK 71....not pick 171...but early 3rd round. The OT we got in the 5th is better than Adams, and would make a better OG too!

If they didn't want Beebe, then fine, take a WR there, or a LB or something...but to take a different LG...who will not start for us, and was nowhere near as accomplished at that pick was silly. Adams might make the 53 man roster solely based on his draft position at #71....but if Gaines comes back healthy and impresses, Adams may end up on the practice squad.
 

GimmedaBall

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My entire problem is that we drafted a backup at PICK 71....not pick 171...but early 3rd round. The OT we got in the 5th is better than Adams, and would make a better OG too!
You summarized what many Card fans were thinking on the Adams pick. My question to you was: why do you think the Cards picked Adams over Beebe? What was there that made him a sleeper pick at 71?
 

Fitz4Ever

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You summarized what many Card fans were thinking on the Adams pick. My question to you was: why do you think the Cards picked Adams over Beebe? What was there that made him a sleeper pick at 71?
I think it was because they looked at him at the senior bowl. It seemd like that was a very important part of this year's draft...whether or not they got a first hand look at them during the week of the senior bowl.

My problem with that is, I think they are putting too much stock in it. When a guy has great tape and accomplishments AND looks really good at the senior bowl, they are usually decent in the NFL. When a guy hasn't done anything of much note in his entire time in college, and then looks good at the senior bowl...I think it's fools gold. Why weren't they better when the games counted?
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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I think it was because they looked at him at the senior bowl. It seemd like that was a very important part of this year's draft...whether or not they got a first hand look at them during the week of the senior bowl.

My problem with that is, I think they are putting too much stock in it. When a guy has great tape and accomplishments AND looks really good at the senior bowl, they are usually decent in the NFL. When a guy hasn't done anything of much note in his entire time in college, and then looks good at the senior bowl...I think it's fools gold. Why weren't they better when the games counted?
There are a bunch of reasons a player may not look great with their college team and look good at the senior bowl. For one they may be asked to play out of position for their college team, they may play for a coach that isn't great at putting them in positions to succeed and they may not be surrounded with enough help to allow them to do their thing. The senior bowl is an opportunity to show what you can do when surrounded by and going head to head against NFL talent. Adams specifically is an an example of the first thing, his team constantly moved him around due to team needs.

All of this being said, we don't know how much of their evaluation was about what they saw in their whole body of work. It is only an assumption that they put way more stock in the senior bowl stuff, but the reality might be that they also loved what they saw from the rest of their college careers as well.
 

GimmedaBall

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Adams was a big part of the run game for Illinois (along with our new TE). Believe he moved around the line as well playing some RT. To me, it looks like the Cards are putting together an OL of great run blockers and that may be the rationale of picking Adams over Beebe.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Adams was a big part of the run game for Illinois (along with our new TE). Believe he moved around the line as well playing some RT. To me, it looks like the Cards are putting together an OL of great run blockers and that may be the rationale of picking Adams over Beebe.
Makes some sense to build more towards one strength or the other. Establish a great run game and teams will have to be a little cautious with pinning their ears back to rush the passer. Of course you can also wear out the opposing front by pounding it down their throats early in the game and then start opening up the passing game as they get more worn down.
 

GimmedaBall

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Makes some sense to build more towards one strength or the other.
Yes. Most teams have built their D to be pass-D first. You get lighter, quicker guys on the DL, lighter LBers, and fast DBs. That tactic leaves them open to an OL manned by dinosaurs who can smash-mouth at the line and then rumble into the 2nd level and maul a skinny LBer or DB.

Cards are doing that with their OL and TE and the addition of another big, quick RB.

Dallas went with the pass-D first. Witness how their DL got tossed around by the Packers run game in that disaster of a playoff game.
 

oaken1

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Yes. Most teams have built their D to be pass-D first. You get lighter, quicker guys on the DL, lighter LBers, and fast DBs. That tactic leaves them open to an OL manned by dinosaurs who can smash-mouth at the line and then rumble into the 2nd level and maul a skinny LBer or DB.

Cards are doing that with their OL and TE and the addition of another big, quick RB.

Dallas went with the pass-D first. Witness how their DL got tossed around by the Packers run game in that disaster of a playoff game.
The nfl often goes in cycles between the run and pass games regardless of the rules committee trying so hard to make it a pass only league. Nice to see the Cardinals out in front on the next shift....wide receiver's demanding 30+mil probably feeds into that.
 

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