On D'antoni's Rant

[cepstrum]

OK "rant" may be a bit strong, but its not too far off. I can understand a coach wanting the fans to get a little more excited, but it is a two way street. The fans will get excited (and stop booing) when the team starts performing like it should. It is my opinion that the coach should focus on getting his team to play well rather than calling out the fans. I've always liked D'antoni, but IMO this was a bit much. I read on another board about how his statements reminded people of John Mcleod's final days as the suns coach when he blamed everyone (fans, media, etc) for his teams failure except himself.

The fans in this city are soooo thirsty for something good to happen with this team. After 3 seasons of getting ousted in the postseason, after Amare's microfracture, after the STAT/Diaw fiasco, after the ref fiasco, after seeing all these draft pics sold, after getting rid of our best low post defender etc., I think they deserve a right to bitch when their team looks like crap most of the time. I know its early but all the suns have to do is play well, be energetic and D'antoni will have nothing to worry about.

The point of the thread was to get the general feeling of the board. What do you guys think about his comments? Were they appropriate? Do the fans have a right to boo or be lifeless when the team itself is hardly showing any signs of life?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The team is 6-2 and looks like crap most of the time? It is going to be a loooong season.

And D'Antoni is absolutely correct about the fans. The Cardinals come out and played like crap on Sunday and the fans practically willed that team to victory. Whiz has been talking about it all week.

Playing at home should be an advantage.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I disagree with Dan on this one. If you put up crap like you did against the Lakers, you not only deserve to get boo'd, but they should be prepared to give a refund.

Normally I won't boo a team, but being down by 30+ in the 4Q to a division rival is inexcusable.

I'm not one of those that think that you should never boo, for any reason. I think that there are times that it can, and should be used.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I think a valid question is:

Have the Suns become spoiled as fans? I would be freaking out if the Cardinals were above .500 let alone at a .750 win percentage. Have they simply had too much success?

It seems that many here aren't happy unless a team exceeds expectations, but expectations have become nearly impossibly high.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I disagree with Dan on this one. If you put up crap like you did against the Lakers, you not only deserve to get boo'd, but they should be prepared to give a refund.

Normally I won't boo a team, but being down by 30+ in the 4Q to a division rival is inexcusable.

I'm not one of those that think that you should never boo, for any reason. I think that there are times that it can, and should be used.

Sure you can boo during that poor game. He is talking about dead fans during a game where they are beating the crap out of the opposing team and making some amazing plays as well.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Sure you can boo during that poor game. He is talking about dead fans during a game where they are beating the crap out of the opposing team and making some amazing plays as well.

He also mentioned being upset with fans for booing them during the Lakers game. I agree with the lethargic fans that show up at Suns games.

 

[nowagimp]

OK "rant" may be a bit strong, but its not too far off. I can understand a coach wanting the fans to get a little more excited, but it is a two way street. The fans will get excited (and stop booing) when the team starts performing like it should. It is my opinion that the coach should focus on getting his team to play well rather than calling out the fans. I've always liked D'antoni, but IMO this was a bit much. I read on another board about how his statements reminded people of John Mcleod's final days as the suns coach when he blamed everyone (fans, media, etc) for his teams failure except himself.

The fans in this city are soooo thirsty for something good to happen with this team. After 3 seasons of getting ousted in the postseason, after Amare's microfracture, after the STAT/Diaw fiasco, after the ref fiasco, after seeing all these draft pics sold, after getting rid of our best low post defender etc., I think they deserve a right to bitch when their team looks like crap most of the time. I know its early but all the suns have to do is play well, be energetic and D'antoni will have nothing to worry about.

The point of the thread was to get the general feeling of the board. What do you guys think about his comments? Were they appropriate? Do the fans have a right to boo or be lifeless when the team itself is hardly showing any signs of life?

Many suns fans arent particularly knowledgable, but the knowledgable ones have reason to be concerned. The suns gave up their best interior defender and best fundamental rebounder(KT knows boxing out), and are getting killed on the boards almost nightly. The formula for beating the suns, kill them on offensive rebounds, slow them into a half court game, pressure the '3' appears to be more applicable than last year, at least in the early going. The suns were killed by the lakers WITHOUT Odom. Odom is back now and he looks pretty good physically, if a bit rusty. The lakers will be a problem for the suns as will the spurs. Opponents are shooting 36% from '3' against the suns, probably due to the need to double the post.

 

[cepstrum]

The team is 6-2 and looks like crap most of the time? It is going to be a loooong season.

And D'Antoni is absolutely correct about the fans. The Cardinals come out and played like crap on Sunday and the fans practically willed that team to victory. Whiz has been talking about it all week.

Playing at home should be an advantage.

This team has played maybe 5/6 decent quarters. Maybe. Out of 32. They have played like crap most of the time. The one good game they had was against orlando. All the others have been nothing to write home about. Is it early? Sure. But who the hell is Mike D'antoni to tell the fans not to get pissed off? Why shouldn't they boo at the lakers game (can you believe he was actually mad about that)?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Many suns fans arent particularly knowledgable, but the knowledgable ones have reason to be concerned. The suns gave up their best interior defender and best fundamental rebounder(KT knows boxing out), and are getting killed on the boards almost nightly. The formula for beating the suns, kill them on offensive rebounds, slow them into a half court game, pressure the '3' appears to be more applicable than last year, at least in the early going. The suns were killed by the lakers WITHOUT Odom. Odom is back now and he looks pretty good physically, if a bit rusty. The lakers will be a problem for the suns as will the spurs. Opponents are shooting 36% from '3' against the suns, probably due to the need to double the post.

You do realize that they were getting killed on the boards, even when KT was around, right?

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

You do realize that they were getting killed on the boards, even when KT was around, right?

Yes, and losing him made it worse, and fan enthusiasm has taken a hit.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Fan enthusiasm taking a hit is due to losing Kurt Thomas?

Now that's a reach.

Fan enthusiasm has sucked for years.

 

[Rab]

It's a pretty simple formula. You put a good product on the floor, and the fans will respond, especially here in PHX.

I can understand the lethargic response to the team from the crowd so far. I think it's a combination of being spoiled over the past 3 years, and also I think people want April here right now, when they feel games matter. Overall, a good portion of the Suns fanbase don't feel like they were given a fair shake last year in the playoffs. You can argue whether or not that opinion is justified till you're blue in the face. I'm not getting into that. This city was completely captivated by this team going into the playoffs. They invested a lot of emotion and support going into that Spurs series, and maybe it has left a bitter taste in their mouths with the way it ended.

Maybe it has to do with the diversity in the lower and upper bowls at the stadium, and ticket prices. The more successful the Suns are, the more ticket prices go up. That can sometimes alienate the hardcore fans a bit from the action, and leave the careless corporate ticket holders down below to socialize and use the game as business.

Maybe it has to do with people not being happy about how things shook out this summer in the way of player movement. We lost out on the KG sweepstakes, sold more picks, and traded away KT along with two more future picks, and dealt with more of Marion's antics. Fans can be turned off when they see too much of the business side of the game.

The problem I see is that people want the Suns to be in late season form, right now. They want to see this team crush everybody so bad, that anything less is a letdown. The reality is that this team is 6-2, and they're not playing very good basketball. They've fallen a little bit under the radar in terms of overall NBA attention goes (see Boston Celtics). To me this is encouraging because the Suns usually peak at about midseason. They always seem to play their best ball around then, and then they falter a bit going into the postseason. Maybe they peak later in the year and kick into a higher gear, and gain momentum for the playoffs. I'll be more than happy to sacrafice regular season wins for playoff success.

The fans will come around. The team will come around. They have their issues, but give this about another 3 weeks to a month, and it'll all be fine.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There is no problem with fans. Its just that most of the passionate ones aren't in the building. The ones they have in the building are exec types taking visiting clients out to sell something. Its pretty hard to get interested when you are trying to make deals in the seats.

1. Getting jobbed out of the playoffs over a stupid rule where we were getting mauled and made no contact.
2. Wondering if games were fixed by crooked refs.
3. Wondering if our owner is more interested in the bottom line than the OBrien trophy.
4. Wondering whether our players are really committed (Shawn Marion) or would really prefer to play elsewhere.
5. Wondering if our coach has any nads ("we don't play like that") with sissy comments while his team is getting beat up against San Antonio.
6. Wondering how this team would look with some of the rookies on it that we passed up over the past few years.
7. Wondering how our team will look without the rookies that we have already given up over the next few years.
8. Passionless basketball on the court without Raja in the line up.

hmm. Maybe the coach ought be thankful that he has fans at the game at all. After all, I am a fan, I do not HAVE to come to the game, I have no obligation to do so. Even then I care deeply about this team but really wonder if it is stupid of me to do so after all these years--BECAUSE IT SEEMS TO ME THAT I CARE MORE ABOUT THIS TEAM WINNING THAT THE OWNER, SOME OF THE PLAYERS, OR EVEN THE COACH.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

This passionate fan cannot afford 5k a year for season tickets. I only go to a handful a year.

 

[nowagimp]

You do realize that they were getting killed on the boards, even when KT was around, right?

When KT was in the game offensive rebound follow ups were not so easy. Josh childress, a skinny bones player killed them crashing the offensive boards from the perimeter. You do realize that when you double the post, your man can make an unimpeded run at the rim for the offensive rebound dont you? This isnt about fantasy stats, its about tactical and situational defensive rebounding. KT was the only guy on the team who went for the box out instead of the ball. I guess his fantasy numbers werent very high. But the team defended WAY better, both in 2 pt FG% and 3pt GF% with him on the floor. Good FG% defense doesnt happen when you allow alot of follow ups.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

When KT was in the game offensive rebound follow ups were not so easy. Josh childress, a skinny bones player killed them crashing the offensive boards from the perimeter. You do realize that when you double the post, your man can make an unimpeded run at the rim for the offensive rebound dont you? This isnt about fantasy stats, its about tactical and situational defensive rebounding. KT was the only guy on the team who went for the box out instead of the ball. I guess his fantasy numbers werent very high. But the team defended WAY better, both in 2 pt FG% and 3pt GF% with him on the floor. Good FG% defense doesnt happen when you allow alot of follow ups.

Give me a break.

No one said anything about fantasy.

 

[timmo]

Maybe it has to do with the diversity in the lower and upper bowls at the stadium, and ticket prices. The more successful the Suns are, the more ticket prices go up. That can sometimes alienate the hardcore fans a bit from the action, and leave the careless corporate ticket holders down below to socialize and use the game as business.

This is a factor in many arenas these days I think. When I go to my teams games I see all those "fans" in the high dollar seats basically just sitting there looking pretty for the camera and chatting on their cell phones, barely paying attention to the game. And this is what the team and the TV audience sees and hears as well. The real fans can't really afford these seats are are forced to sit far from the action where their voices are hard to be heard.

And complacency can have something to do with it as well. Expectations are high with long term success.

If anything, I think the coach should have just kept his mouth shut and try and control what he can control, the play on the court.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is all crock. We have been one of the five toughest places to play in the last three years and there is no reason for not continuing to give that edge. Keep in mind coming and hearing that fan base be crazy loud as a potential FA makes AZ a desirable place to play.

All this Kurt Thomas, too expensive tix, and skepticism is bull.

We are spoiled bar none. And Mike is right. Show up early and be loud Suns fans. No excuses necessary.

 

[Cheesebeef]

a) DA sounds like a coach with a five thousand ton gorilla on his back. Is he a coach that can legitimately handle the pressure? I don't know. Last season was really his first season with sky high expectations and apparently everyone was so sky high in tightness that we literally exploded in the most important game of the season. Hell, he was about to explode in Game 2 of this season, when Jackson was pulling his normal TO game. Compose yourself, take a deep breath and stop acting like a freaking crybaby DA in and out of games.

b) I REALLY think people (much like the Suns brass) underestimate the intelligence level of Suns fans (yes, even the lower bowl peeps). I know a lot of upper crust people who have those tickets... the "corporate" people... and while they don't cheer boisterously like I and many others here would, that doesn't mean they don't know what went on this summer. Their wives? Yeah, they probably don't know jack, but you're really doing a diservice to the intelligence of Suns fans if you don't think 75-80% of everyone in that stadium isn't aware of what's happened in the last three off-seasons with getting rid of JJ, draft picks, lowballing TT, getting rid of KT and more draft picks, etc, etc.

 

[Black Jesus]

hate to see it and say it, but Sarver and Kerr are going to Titanic this beautiful ship over the next few years. Skinner is worthless... At least back in the day Steven Hunter could do something. Grant Hill is slowly improving in the flow, but i really think we need a premier perimeter shooter to go along with Nash for this offense to reach its maximum capacity. We have the running portion down, as long as Barbosa and Marion RUN, we have the half-court pick and roll with Amare and Steve, and Amare runs the court as well, and we have a point guard that makes great decisions, but we really need those players on the kickouts when Marion is chased or Amare and Steve get doubled.

 

[playstation]

OK "rant" may be a bit strong, but its not too far off. I can understand a coach wanting the fans to get a little more excited, but it is a two way street. The fans will get excited (and stop booing) when the team starts performing like it should. It is my opinion that the coach should focus on getting his team to play well rather than calling out the fans. I've always liked D'antoni, but IMO this was a bit much. I read on another board about how his statements reminded people of John Mcleod's final days as the suns coach when he blamed everyone (fans, media, etc) for his teams failure except himself.

The fans in this city are soooo thirsty for something good to happen with this team. After 3 seasons of getting ousted in the postseason, after Amare's microfracture, after the STAT/Diaw fiasco, after the ref fiasco, after seeing all these draft pics sold, after getting rid of our best low post defender etc., I think they deserve a right to bitch when their team looks like crap most of the time. I know its early but all the suns have to do is play well, be energetic and D'antoni will have nothing to worry about.

The point of the thread was to get the general feeling of the board. What do you guys think about his comments? Were they appropriate? Do the fans have a right to boo or be lifeless when the team itself is hardly showing any signs of life?

good points, i agree with most all.

technically, of course fans have a right to boo. they paid for the ticket and are not satisfied with the performance.

that's not the point. the question from a fan's perspective (if they are truly a fan) is: will it help or hurt to voice my displeasure? if i go to a game and boo the effort or the team, i'm either hoping the players will pick it up on the court or the mgt will get the message and bring in better players.

the problem here is that the team is mostly professional, we know they are going to do their best. they're just not on the same page right now. far as mgt, if you're booing, that means your butt is in the seat and they're making $$$, so i don't think that's a concern. on the flip side, when you boo your team, you give the opposition a distinct psychological advantage (especially when it happens en masse).

i think fans boo simply to vent, and it doesn't really create any results. therefore, i'd say booing is pointless. the problem with apathy and the lack of a reaction is the same: no real results on the court and gives opposition an advantage. but one major difference: when you boo, you are active, when you're apathetic, you're passive.

can't fault someone for being passive. its not their fault. its YOUR fault for not engaging them. that's like a teacher calling out her students for being uninterested. if you want me to be interested, give me something to be interested about and stop complaining.

 

[Rab]

I can't believe I am saying this, but I like this blog written by Doug Franz.

http://ktar.net/blogs/arrr/2007/11/14/dougs-blog-who-should-supply-the-energy-for-the-suns/

 

[cepstrum]

good points, i agree with most all.

technically, of course fans have a right to boo. they paid for the ticket and are not satisfied with the performance.

that's not the point. the question from a fan's perspective (if they are truly a fan) is: will it help or hurt to voice my displeasure? if i go to a game and boo the effort or the team, i'm either hoping the players will pick it up on the court or the mgt will get the message and bring in better players.

the problem here is that the team is mostly professional, we know they are going to do their best. they're just not on the same page right now. far as mgt, if you're booing, that means your butt is in the seat and they're making $$$, so i don't think that's a concern. on the flip side, when you boo your team, you give the opposition a distinct psychological advantage (especially when it happens en masse).

i think fans boo simply to vent, and it doesn't really create any results. therefore, i'd say booing is pointless. the problem with apathy and the lack of a reaction is the same: no real results on the court and gives opposition an advantage. but one major difference: when you boo, you are active, when you're apathetic, you're passive.

can't fault someone for being passive. its not their fault. its YOUR fault for not engaging them. that's like a teacher calling out her students for being uninterested. if you want me to be interested, give me something to be interested about and stop complaining.

That last paragraph is really dead on. Coach keeps saying that we aren't playing for November, we are playing for April/May. Ok fine. Great. Then expect the fans to get louder in April/May when things mean more. Don't call them out for being lifeless when you give them no reason to get excited.

I get this feeling that he really wants to lift the pressure off the team and off himself. He doesn't like the feeling of being expected to win. The team doesn't like that feeling either. Let's face it, with the exception of a couple of these guys, the team is full of softies. It could be that they can't handle the pressure. Maybe the boos really do get to them. If that is really the case, I have no hope for a championship from this group.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

hate to see it and say it, but Sarver and Kerr are going to Titanic this beautiful ship over the next few years. Skinner is worthless... At least back in the day Steven Hunter could do something. Grant Hill is slowly improving in the flow, but i really think we need a premier perimeter shooter to go along with Nash for this offense to reach its maximum capacity. We have the running portion down, as long as Barbosa and Marion RUN, we have the half-court pick and roll with Amare and Steve, and Amare runs the court as well, and we have a point guard that makes great decisions, but we really need those players on the kickouts when Marion is chased or Amare and Steve get doubled.

Skinner has played really well for us.

 

[azirish]

Skinner is worthless... At least back in the day Steven Hunter could do something.

Hunter was a shot blocker and only a shot blocker. He was a below average rebounder, a weak low post defender, a below average offensive player who was consistently out of position.