Mavericks @ Suns Thursday game thread 1-26-2023

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
89,177
Reaction score
62,527
Definitely not a turd and he is a good player. However, the ship has sailed (hope) that he will turn into the next David Robinson/Tim Duncan level player that is usually expected from the #1 overall pick. It is what it is.
I think it’s more than he won’t be Robinson/Duncan. That’s an oversimplification of the criticism. The bigger issue is he’s not even an All-Star level player… and has ALL the tools to be one/is being paid to be one.
 

sdscard4

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Oct 30, 2016
Posts
3,635
Reaction score
2,684
Location
Louisville
If he was the 20th pick of the draft i ain't calling him a turd. He's the numero uno. Which makes him a heaping stinky turd
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
89,177
Reaction score
62,527
If he was the 20th pick of the draft i ain't calling him a turd. He's the numero uno. Which makes him a heaping stinky turd
Just not necessarily to call the guy a turd.

Even The Attack Dog won’t do that.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,173
Reaction score
53,551
Location
SoCal
I have to feel amused, because I was skeptical of the entire team's depth a long time ago when everyone seemed to be touting it. Unreliable players don't count for depth.
I don’t know who “everyone” is but they must populate another board that you frequent because that’s not us.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,173
Reaction score
53,551
Location
SoCal
I don’t think Ayton is as polarizing as you believe. At this point I believe the overwhelming majority of suns fans think he’s a disappointment/tease and then there’s a small minority who thinks he’s Superman.

This board is solid proof of that. We’re a pretty good microcosm of the fan base.
Not only that, but we’ve heard Barkley, shaq, jimmy Jackson, Reggie Miller, van gundy, just to name a few experts comment on Ayton’s shortcomings regularly. It’s not a 50-50 split on aytin. It’s a recognition he could be so much more and is a disappointment by likely 75-85% of fans, teams (maybe, I mean the pacers were the only team to seemingly seriously pursue him), and basketball pundits.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,173
Reaction score
53,551
Location
SoCal
And that’s exactly what I’m talking about.

Nobody here thinks he’s “Superman” that’s how you want people to feel. I’ve been plenty realistic about Ayton and what he is and plenty critical but yet that’s never talked about.

Ok let’s trade him. See is we can get some solid guys for him at this point. Hopefully an unprotected first
You’ve definitely become more reasonable this year in regards to Ayton’s deficiencies.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,173
Reaction score
53,551
Location
SoCal
Am I the only Ayton skeptic willing to back off (at least for now) after he has a 19/20 game? Ayton isn't the one who chose stupid defensive tactics against an opposing coach who knows how to exploit them.
Did you watch the game?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,173
Reaction score
53,551
Location
SoCal
Rebounds are 100% an effort stat.

So when he gets 7 rebounds he shouldn’t be ripped for lack of effort?

Nothing is more effort than rebounding and defense in basketball.
Did you watch the game? The volume of uncontested, or direct rebounds was REALLY high last night. That said, there does have to be effort to get to 20. But that doesn’t mean he expended effort in other areas. I was frustrated by how many layups or offensive rebounds were the result of him watching.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,706
Reaction score
12,743
Location
Arizona
I think it’s more than he won’t be Robinson/Duncan. That’s an oversimplification of the criticism. The bigger issue is he’s not even an All-Star level player… and has ALL the tools to be one/is being paid to be one.
If he was an all-star level player he would be playing at their level when either of those players were in their 4/5 year.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,173
Reaction score
53,551
Location
SoCal
I think it’s more than he won’t be Robinson/Duncan. That’s an oversimplification of the criticism. The bigger issue is he’s not even an All-Star level player… and has ALL the tools to be one/is being paid to be one.
And he has all star stats and he’s still not even mentioned as a potential all star. That speaks volumes about how the coaches and players see him.
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,023
Reaction score
13,765
Not only that, but we’ve heard Barkley, shaq, jimmy Jackson, Reggie Miller, van gundy, just to name a few experts comment on Ayton’s shortcomings regularly. It’s not a 50-50 split on aytin. It’s a recognition he could be so much more and is a disappointment by likely 75-85% of fans, teams (maybe, I mean the pacers were the only team to seemingly seriously pursue him), and basketball pundits.

That’s really not a true as far as the Pacer thing goes. Only two teams even had the money to pursue him detriot and Indiana. After detriot scored in the draft they were out of the market.

Then take into account how James Jones screwed up his contract situation we could only take back 19 million on a trade and couldn’t combine him with any other players because.

So the whole only Indiana pursued him thing is a false flag considering they were literally the only team that could have pursued him.

I 100% blame James Jones for handcuffing us. No reason Sabonis and Halliburton shouldn’t be Phoenix Suns
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
89,177
Reaction score
62,527
If he was an all-star level player he would be playing at their level when either of those players were in their 4/5 year.
Not even close. Those guys weren’t just All-Stars by year 4, they were MVP candidates in year 2. There’s a gulf of difference between All Star level and sure fire first ballot HOFers.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,706
Reaction score
12,743
Location
Arizona
Rebounds are 100% an effort stat.

So when he gets 7 rebounds he shouldn’t be ripped for lack of effort?

Nothing is more effort than rebounding and defense in basketball.
Finito, you can expend effort in one part of your game and be lazy in others. Offensive players in most sports are criticized for it all the time. They spend all their energy in one aspect of the game and dog it in others. One doesn't lead to another. So, yes you can be criticized for lack of effort in other parts of your game. Having said that, I am not sure it's an effort thing with him. I feel like it's a head thing for him.

He constantly is out of place around the rim. He often forgets he can dunk the ball. He lets guys behind him with regularity. We have seen outside of basketaball his dome isn't screwed on tight. Maybe it's both. For whatever reason he can't seem to put it all together.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
89,177
Reaction score
62,527
You’ve definitely become more reasonable this year in regards to Ayton’s deficiencies.
but still the blame is repeatedly laid at Monty’s or the organizations feet, making excuses about Ayton’s game out there… when it’s really looked not all that different than a lot of his entire outside of one truly consistent playoff run.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,173
Reaction score
53,551
Location
SoCal
That’s really not a true as far as the Pacer thing goes. Only two teams even had the money to pursue him detriot and Indiana. After detriot scored in the draft they were out of the market.

Then take into account how James Jones screwed up his contract situation we could only take back 19 million on a trade and couldn’t combine him with any other players because.

So the whole only Indiana pursued him thing is a false flag considering they were literally the only team that could have pursued him.

I 100% blame James Jones for handcuffing us. No reason Sabonis and Halliburton shouldn’t be Phoenix Suns
There are a myriad of ways to be creative in trades. If a team really wanted Ayton they would have traded for him. Instead all we heard a lot of was “they aren’t interested in trading for Ayton.” But maybe I’m wrong. What teams did you know of that expressed interest? What teams are we hearing about that want him now?
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,706
Reaction score
12,743
Location
Arizona
Not even close. Those guys weren’t just All-Stars by year 4, they were MVP candidates in year 2. There’s a gulf of difference between All Star level and sure fire first ballot HOFers.
Not always. Many HOF's were perennial All-Stars. Ayton is just a weird player. He flashes greatness. He flashes dominance. His numbers are decent. It just feels like he is on his tippy toes forever reaching for the cookie jar and can't reach it. It's so frustrating.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
89,177
Reaction score
62,527
Finito, you can expend effort in one part of your game and be lazy in others. Offensive players in most sports are criticized for it all the time. They spend all their energy in one aspect of the game and dog it in others. One doesn't lead to another. So, yes you can be criticized for lack of effort in other parts of your game. Having said that, I am not sure it's an effort thing with him. I feel like it's a head thing for him.

He constantly is out of place around the rim. He often forgets he can dunk the ball. He lets guys behind him with regularity. We have seen outside of basketaball his dome isn't screwed on tight. Maybe it's both. For whatever reason he can't seem to put it all together.
It’s also a stamina issue. Ayton repeatedly has big first halfs only to follow them up by duds in the second. And there’s no conspiracy against him to make that happen. We can see him huffing and puffing even early in games and when you lose your legs, that’s when you mentally start to go weak/lazy.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
61,173
Reaction score
53,551
Location
SoCal
but still the blame is repeatedly laid at Monty’s or the organizations feet, making excuses about Ayton’s game out there… when it’s really looked not all that different than a lot of his entire outside of one truly consistent playoff run.
True. But I think monty deserves the criticism too.
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,023
Reaction score
13,765
Did you watch the game? The volume of uncontested, or direct rebounds was REALLY high last night. That said, there does have to be effort to get to 20. But that doesn’t mean he expended effort in other areas. I was frustrated by how many layups or offensive rebounds were the result of him watching.

I watched until the end of the third, but we can all agree you don’t accidentally get 20 rebounds in an NBA game.

I don’t have a problem with guys having bad shooting nights. They happen sometimes they just don’t fall. I look at are you taking bad shots or good shots. He got his shots where he likes them they just didn’t fall.

I’ve said over and over developing talent is as important as talent itself. He hasn’t been developed. It’s not a coincidence Ayton and Bridges are super inconsistent.

The way the fans perceive them is tied to where they were drafted. Ayton is kind of underrated while Bridges is wildly overrated, but to me they’re kind of the same guy at this point. Both good pieces but stars win championships and we need a STAR who that is I don’t know
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,023
Reaction score
13,765
There are a myriad of ways to be creative in trades. If a team really wanted Ayton they would have traded for him. Instead all we heard a lot of was “they aren’t interested in trading for Ayton.” But maybe I’m wrong. What teams did you know of that expressed interest? What teams are we hearing about that want him now?

Those were the rules in trading any sign and trade players. Can’t be combined with any other players and could only take back 19 million.

Your handcuffed in that situation
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,706
Reaction score
12,743
Location
Arizona
True. But I think monty deserves the criticism too.
100%. We have seen Monty's scheme. It's funny Shaq said it on the telecast last night. He said that Monty's offense basically is pick and roll with Ayton the vast majority of the time verses regular offensive sets. It's true. This offense is based on CP3/Booker getting to their mid-range shots and if teams collapse getting the ball to shooters. The rest of the time it's pick and roll with Ayton going to the bucket. I would think Shaq knows what he is talking about since it was his position.

So, Monty shares some blame here. Maybe if Ayton was in a different offense he would develop more. I have no clue.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,706
Reaction score
12,743
Location
Arizona
I watched until the end of the third, but we can all agree you don’t accidentally get 20 rebounds in an NBA game.

I don’t have a problem with guys having bad shooting nights. They happen sometimes they just don’t fall. I look at are you taking bad shots or good shots. He got his shots where he likes them they just didn’t fall.

I’ve said over and over developing talent is as important as talent itself. He hasn’t been developed. It’s not a coincidence Ayton and Bridges are super inconsistent.

The way the fans perceive them is tied to where they were drafted. Ayton is kind of underrated while Bridges is wildly overrated, but to me they’re kind of the same guy at this point. Both good pieces but stars win championships and we need a STAR who that is I don’t know
Nobody said he gets 20 rebounds accidentally and Ayton is not underrated whatsoever. I think most of the league and fans recognize he has talent but isn't an All-star. That's not underrated.
 

Carolinacacti

Hall of Famer
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Posts
2,227
Reaction score
1,208
Location
Charlotte NC
but still the blame is repeatedly laid at Monty’s or the organizations feet, making excuses about Ayton’s game out there… when it’s really looked not all that different than a lot of his entire outside of one truly consistent playoff run.
Ok I'm a UA fan so take this like a grain of salt. Blame Monty for playing the softie that long after being sick. You have two other centers that would have done better. WHY?
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,023
Reaction score
13,765
100%. We have seen Monty's scheme. It's funny Shaq said it on the telecast last night. He said that Monty's offense basically is pick and roll with Ayton the vast majority of the time verses regular offensive sets. It's true. This offense is based on CP3/Booker getting to their mid-range shots and if teams collapse getting the ball to shooters. The rest of the time it's pick and roll with Ayton going to the bucket. I would think Shaq knows what he is talking about since it was his position.

So, Monty shares some blame here. Maybe if Ayton was in a different offense he would develop more. I have no clue.

Right. I think this is pretty easy to see what’s happened.

Ayton is a screen setter here. That’s how you’ve developed him the last 4 years. At best a third option.

Never taking in to account Paul is at the end and saying hey maybe we should develop the 22 year old. It’s the same system. Monty is a system coach.

Guys are screaming for Ayton to take over now that Booker isn’t there and Paul is a shell but you’ve never developed him to be a 1 or even a 2. He’s never been out in that position 5 years in. You’re asking him to do something he’s never been asked to do.

He’s a screen setter for Monty guard orientated mid range offense. You’ve taught your parrot to cuss don’t get mad when he cusses now.
 
Top