Mavericks @ Suns Thursday game thread 1-26-2023

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,510
Reaction score
12,464
Location
Arizona
Right. I think this is pretty easy to see what’s happened.

Ayton is a screen setter here. That’s how you’ve developed him the last 4 years. At best a third option.

Never taking in to account Paul is at the end and saying hey maybe we should develop the 22 year old. It’s the same system. Monty is a system coach.

Guys are screaming for Ayton to take over now that Booker isn’t there and Paul is a shell but you’ve never developed him to be a 1 or even a 2. He’s never been out in that position 5 years in. You’re asking him to do something he’s never been asked to do.

He’s a screen setter for Monty guard orientated mid range offense. You’ve taught your parrot to cuss don’t get mad when he cusses now.
Scheme is only one part of the issue though. I agree with @Ouchie-Z-Clown on this. Monty shares some of the blame but Ayton owns a huge chunk of it. Even when Tim Duncan was playing 2nd fiddle to David he looked dominate and it was clear he was going to take over the team. I could come up with a list of future star players that looked dominate even early on and looked like they were destined to lead their teams. I have never had that feeling once with Ayton minus his playoff run.
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,086
Reaction score
14,977
Right. I think this is pretty easy to see what’s happened.

Ayton is a screen setter here. That’s how you’ve developed him the last 4 years. At best a third option.

Never taking in to account Paul is at the end and saying hey maybe we should develop the 22 year old. It’s the same system. Monty is a system coach.

Guys are screaming for Ayton to take over now that Booker isn’t there and Paul is a shell but you’ve never developed him to be a 1 or even a 2. He’s never been out in that position 5 years in. You’re asking him to do something he’s never been asked to do.

He’s a screen setter for Monty guard orientated mid range offense. You’ve taught your parrot to cuss don’t get mad when he cusses now.
He's a screen setter because early on here we kept losing games because we were trying to feed him like a real power player. Okay, maybe Monty's offense has something to do with it too but much of it is on DA's unwillingness to go strong to the hoop, his inability to establish pass-ready position down low and his highly inconsistent hands (which are sometimes great but sometimes horrible).

But right now, with Booker and Payne out, it's absurd to expect anyone else on this team to fill the void. Nobody has that ability. Booker's presence is vital for CP3, Ayton, Bridges, Cam Johnson or whoever else we run out there.

I'm sure someone will point out that CamJ came in and was immediately effective with Booker out but when you lose every night, much less attention is given to the scouting reports - win 4 in a row though and that changes. And as we've all seen, it's far too easy to turn us into a predictable offensive team. Which at least makes us consistent on both ends of the court with our highly predictable (and exploitable) defense.

As for the Mavericks game, I don't blame that on Ayton. But DA is the only player on this team with enough talent that the other team can't stop a motivated version of him without throwing multiple defenders at him. When he settles for those 15 to 20 foot shots though, they don't need to throw multiple defenders at him.
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,510
Reaction score
12,464
Location
Arizona
He's a screen setter because early on here we kept losing games because we were trying to feed him like a real power player. Okay, maybe Monty's offense has something to do with it too but much of it is on DA's unwillingness to go strong to the hoop, his inability to establish pass-ready position down low and his highly inconsistent hands (which are sometimes great but sometimes horrible).

But right now, with Booker and Payne out, it's absurd to expect anyone else on this team to fill the void. Nobody has that ability. Booker's presence is vital for CP3, Ayton, Bridges, Cam Johnson or whoever else we run out there.

I'm sure someone will point out that CamJ came in and was immediately effective with Booker out but when you lose every night, much less attention is given to the scouting reports - win 4 in a row though and that changes. And as we've all seen, it's far too easy to turn us into a predictable offensive team. Which at least makes us consistent on both ends of the court with our highly predictable (and exploitable) defense.

As for the Mavericks game, I don't blame that on Ayton. But DA is the only player on this team with enough talent that the other team can't stop a motivated version of him without throwing multiple defenders at him. When he settles for those 15 to 20 foot shots though, they don't need to throw multiple defenders at him.
All of this.
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
35,498
Reaction score
6,932
Location
Scottsdale
It's always been a question... Since we drafted him, and with the one exception being his post-season play 2 years ago and with a few regular season games sprinkled in here & there, Ayton has always played in ways that cause more frustration and head-scratching, than he has in ways that would validate his #1 overall selection and the promise of his physical gifts.
But now in his 5th season, I believe we know what we have in Ayton...and more importantly, what we don't have. To be sure, the minute he steps onto the court, he's an automatic double-double. But, I think I speak for most objective fans when I say that he arguably puts up the most impotent and non-impactful double-doubles we have ever witnessed.
After 5 years, it's safe to officially conclude that Ayton is one of the most gifted yet soft, light-hearted big guys to ever play in the NBA. We can only dream of what we would have if Ayton even had half the heart of Shaq...or The Greek Freak... instead, we have a guy who, after a night like last night when the case can be made that he was a huge contributor to the loss, says in the post-game presser that he had "fun tonight!"

When someone continually shows you who he is, at some point you just have to believe him... The bigger question remains - can you get to the next level with a big man like Ayton? Can you seriously talk about a Championship, when your #1 overall pick, in his 5th season, can't be trusted to lead your team through tough games and onto the win?
And... would this team be better off, both in the short and long-run, if we finally cut the chord and traded DA? I think I'm now in this camp... as I just can't see how we will ever reach the level of success we also desire, with Ayton on the team.

Off the court, seems like a great kid. Fun to be with...great sense of humor... But, the dude just doesn't have it in him to be the sort of killer, dominant big-man his size and gifts suggest he should be. Such a bummer...
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
88,965
Reaction score
62,095
It's always been a question... Since we drafted him, and with the one exception being his post-season play 2 years ago and with a few regular season games sprinkled in here & there, Ayton has always played in ways that cause more frustration and head-scratching, than he has in ways that would validate his #1 overall selection and the promise of his physical gifts.
But now in his 5th season, I believe we know what we have in Ayton...and more importantly, what we don't have. To be sure, the minute he steps onto the court, he's an automatic double-double. But, I think I speak for most objective fans when I say that he arguably puts up the most impotent and non-impactful double-doubles we have ever witnessed.
After 5 years, it's safe to officially conclude that Ayton is one of the most gifted yet soft, light-hearted big guys to ever play in the NBA. We can only dream of what we would have if Ayton even had half the heart of Shaq...or The Greek Freak... instead, we have a guy who, after a night like last night when the case can be made that he was a huge contributor to the loss, says in the post-game presser that he had "fun tonight!"

When someone continually shows you who he is, at some point you just have to believe him... The bigger question remains - can you get to the next level with a big man like Ayton? Can you seriously talk about a Championship, when your #1 overall pick, in his 5th season, can't be trusted to lead your team through tough games and onto the win?
And... would this team be better off, both in the short and long-run, if we finally cut the chord and traded DA? I think I'm now in this camp... as I just can't see how we will ever reach the level of success we also desire, with Ayton on the team.

Off the court, seems like a great kid. Fun to be with...great sense of humor... But, the dude just doesn't have it in him to be the sort of killer, dominant big-man his size and gifts suggest he should be. Such a bummer...
Sadly, this.
 

leclerc

The smooth operator
Joined
Jun 28, 2008
Posts
2,290
Reaction score
882
Location
Norway
When do we play the Lakers again? Ayton needs a push in the back.
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
12,197
Reaction score
9,904
This bench is simply thin. It's not as deep as they appear. It's good for occasional game where someone goes off but for the most part they are inconsistent, and you can't depend on them. When you have a starter who goes 6/20 it's a lock we are going to lose.

THIS TEAM NEEDS HELP.
Yeah, I'm not sure I buy that. It's the same bench that scores 50 or 60 some nights.

For whatever reason we just seem to have nights as a team where we can't shoot at all. My best guess - team is being paid to shave points or something, because otherwise it doesn't make much sense for as often as it has happened this season.
 

Cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
88,965
Reaction score
62,095
Yeah, I'm not sure I buy that. It's the same bench that scores 50 or 60 some nights.

For whatever reason we just seem to have nights as a team where we can't shoot at all. My best guess - team is being paid to shave points or something, because otherwise it doesn't make much sense for as often as it has happened this season.
This has to be a joke, right?
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,012
Reaction score
13,752
Yes, but was Dinwiddie's being hot caused more by himself (that is, he was just hot) or the Suns' unwise switching? I say it's at least somewhat an effect of the switching: Dinwiddie was able to milk it for 36 because the unwise switching helped him to. Without them, he would probably have scored a few points less (say, 5 less) and the Suns would theoretically have won. It didn't have to happen.

I didn’t say this
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,012
Reaction score
13,752
It's always been a question... Since we drafted him, and with the one exception being his post-season play 2 years ago and with a few regular season games sprinkled in here & there, Ayton has always played in ways that cause more frustration and head-scratching, than he has in ways that would validate his #1 overall selection and the promise of his physical gifts.
But now in his 5th season, I believe we know what we have in Ayton...and more importantly, what we don't have. To be sure, the minute he steps onto the court, he's an automatic double-double. But, I think I speak for most objective fans when I say that he arguably puts up the most impotent and non-impactful double-doubles we have ever witnessed.
After 5 years, it's safe to officially conclude that Ayton is one of the most gifted yet soft, light-hearted big guys to ever play in the NBA. We can only dream of what we would have if Ayton even had half the heart of Shaq...or The Greek Freak... instead, we have a guy who, after a night like last night when the case can be made that he was a huge contributor to the loss, says in the post-game presser that he had "fun tonight!"

When someone continually shows you who he is, at some point you just have to believe him... The bigger question remains - can you get to the next level with a big man like Ayton? Can you seriously talk about a Championship, when your #1 overall pick, in his 5th season, can't be trusted to lead your team through tough games and onto the win?
And... would this team be better off, both in the short and long-run, if we finally cut the chord and traded DA? I think I'm now in this camp... as I just can't see how we will ever reach the level of success we also desire, with Ayton on the team.

Off the court, seems like a great kid. Fun to be with...great sense of humor... But, the dude just doesn't have it in him to be the sort of killer, dominant big-man his size and gifts suggest he should be. Such a bummer...

Realistically we were 2 games away from a championship with Ayton.

Ayton is certainly a good piece but we need another star on the perimeter
 

82CardsGrad

7 x 70
Joined
Dec 31, 2004
Posts
35,498
Reaction score
6,932
Location
Scottsdale
Realistically we were 2 games away from a championship with Ayton.

Ayton is certainly a good piece but we need another star on the perimeter
Yes... as I said, he had a moment in the sun 2 years ago in that post season...
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,675
Reaction score
781
I don’t think Ayton is as polarizing as you believe. At this point I believe the overwhelming majority of suns fans think he’s a disappointment/tease and then there’s a small minority who thinks he’s Superman.

This board is solid proof of that. We’re a pretty good microcosm of the fan base.
There are also fans (a fan? just me?) who didn't want the Suns to match the Pacers offer and to just let him leave.
 

Bufalay

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Posts
4,675
Reaction score
781
Just checked the NBA.com stats. Dinwiddie had zero points against Bridges. Not sure why they were switching so easily, he had 10 points again D. Lee and 9 against Paul.
 

Finito

ASFN Icon
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Posts
21,012
Reaction score
13,752
I think "Dinwiddie was hot" is a fair paraphrase of

Especially the last part. If he was lights out, he was hot. If you're trying to point out that you never said anything about the switches: well, no, you didn't. That was all my idea.

No my guy. It was misquoted it happens from time to time on the board

I never even said that
 

Covert Rain

Father smelt of elderberries!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Posts
34,510
Reaction score
12,464
Location
Arizona
Yeah, I'm not sure I buy that. It's the same bench that scores 50 or 60 some nights.

For whatever reason we just seem to have nights as a team where we can't shoot at all. My best guess - team is being paid to shave points or something, because otherwise it doesn't make much sense for as often as it has happened this season.
Dear Lord. Usually, crazy statements like this are reserved for the Politics forum.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

I'm better than Mulli!
Joined
Sep 16, 2002
Posts
60,914
Reaction score
53,088
Location
SoCal
I watched until the end of the third, but we can all agree you don’t accidentally get 20 rebounds in an NBA game.

I don’t have a problem with guys having bad shooting nights. They happen sometimes they just don’t fall. I look at are you taking bad shots or good shots. He got his shots where he likes them they just didn’t fall.

I’ve said over and over developing talent is as important as talent itself. He hasn’t been developed. It’s not a coincidence Ayton and Bridges are super inconsistent.

The way the fans perceive them is tied to where they were drafted. Ayton is kind of underrated while Bridges is wildly overrated, but to me they’re kind of the same guy at this point. Both good pieces but stars win championships and we need a STAR who that is I don’t know
You’re giving Ayton too big of a pass considering what shots “just didn’t fall.”

Agree with your last paragraph.
 

Superbone

Phoenix native; Lifelong Suns Fan
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Posts
6,018
Reaction score
3,009
Location
San Diego, CA
Just putting these here. Sorry if already posted.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media
 

AzStevenCal

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Posts
36,086
Reaction score
14,977
Perk was right. Numbers lied for Ayton in this game.
As I recall, Perk was one of those guys ripping the Suns for failing to offer DA a max contract the moment he was eligible. It's amazing how quickly all the talking heads have jumped off his bandwagon now that the finals run has put us on TV a lot more the past year and a half. They were outspoken yet uneducated before all the TV appearances - now they're a little less uneducated and a little less wrong when they talk about the Suns.
 
Top