If you think we should move on from Kyler then answer this...

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Trade some of their bounty of 2024 picks for a #1 in 2025, then use their two #1s in 2025 to move up to the top of the round? :shrug:
How often does the top pick in the draft get traded for just two picks?
 

Solar7

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Trade some of their bounty of 2024 picks for a #1 in 2025, then use their two #1s in 2025 to move up to the top of the round? :shrug:
Moving up has pretty much been proven to be a disaster lately.

The "get your guy no matter what" thing is atrocious. Like, the Panthers are in absolute shambles now, with no coach, and no picks.

Young, Lance, Fields, Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, (kinda) Watson, Goff, Wentz, RG3, Gabbert...

The only two success stories are Allen and Mahomes.
 

K1Day1

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I can only state this one final time and I won't mention it again. The Cardinals better make absolutely sure that what they draft is better than what they get rid of ( No matter what position ). ALL these young QB's right now coming up in the draft look great ( Against other college kids ).
The question has always been; " How will they fair against grown a** men? ". Generally most No. 1 QB draft picks are hard to judge honestly because of all the hype surrounding them. Then the following year there is always that NEW stud QB that is better and once again is going to be great. Whatever the Cardinals do, they better choose wisely. Most of us have seen this organization ( No matter GM or Head Coach ) Get rid of players that they don't think are good enough and it's come back to bite this team in the butt. As far as Kyler Murray goes, trust me he will definitely not have a problem finding a team to take him
Offensive Rookie of the year, two time pro bowl. He'll do just fine. I'm sure that the Cardinals are getting calls from other teams that would be willing to take Murray.
 
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netsnjkidd

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I want to see the rest of the season, but at this point I’m not ready to give up on Murray. IMO perhaps for the first time he‘s actually getting some firm coaching and he’s making a serious effort to follow it. It’s hard to imagine how hard it must be to change stuff that’s worked for you for years. He’s struggling in his own mind. Give him time. If he’s still struggling at year’s end, maybe the changes are too much for him. If they can turn him into the QB he could be, they win big!
In a lost season ppl wanna get rid of Kyler who looks like his finally getting coaching in real nfl system to even changing his footwork. The guy never been under center in his life. But in his 3rd game back from an acl his supposed to Peyton manning. Ima need by next season to make a true judgment on him.
 

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I find it comical that KM has always played in shotgun his whole life, was drafted #1 with this skill set and can’t consistently succeed with it in the NFL.

Now we’re asking (forcing) him to go under center to try and have any consistent success.

Pretty sad the insanely rich QB is having to completely change his game at this stage in his career. Like asking a fastball pitcher to change to a knuckle baller in the MLB. Not going to end well.
 

slanidrac16

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I pretty sure after playing qb your whole life you know or at least you should know not to throw into triple coverage.
I would imagine he should be able to read a defense.
 

daves

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In a lost season ppl wanna get rid of Kyler who looks like his finally getting coaching in real nfl system to even changing his footwork. The guy never been under center in his life. But in his 3rd game back from an acl his supposed to Peyton manning. Ima need by next season to make a true judgment on him.
Murray isn't playing under center significantly more than he has previously. (Though this week, his best drive was the one where he played under center more.)

People can BEGIN to form a judgement based on what we're seeing right now, even with all the caveats.

NO ONE has said he's expected to play like a Hall of Famer right now. It's not really useful to reply to things that nobody said.

I think most of us were hoping he'd play better than Dobbs, which he has not. And most of us were hoping he'd be ranked better than 34th in passer rating (not counting players with 10 or fewer passes).
 

daves

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How often does the top pick in the draft get traded for just two picks?
I didn't say they would use only two first-round picks, and I didn't say they'd move all the way to the #1 pick. I think if they push some of 2024's draft assets into 2025, especially if that includes acquiring an additional first-round pick, they'll have enough assets in 2025 to keep their options open to move up to the top part of the first round to take a QB.

Even if they use all of their 2024 assets in the 2024 draft, it wouldn't preclude them from moving up for a QB in 2025. Plenty of teams do it by using future firsts.

But if they don't trade Murray, and they push 2024 assets into 2025, I'd see that as a sign that they're still hedging bets to be able to replace Murray in 2025, and want to preserve 2025 and future draft assets to support a 2025 rookie QB.
 
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Outerlimits

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Can the Cardinals have a deep playoff run and even a Super Bowl win with Kyler?

A few years ago the answer would have been an obvious yes, but that doesn't seem necessarily the case presently.

For Whatever reason Kyler hasn't been the same since returning from injury a couple years ago in the 8-0 season. Since then his play has largely ranged from mediocre to below average. This isn't a small sample size now either, but 2+ seasons.

It can't just be explained away merely by blaming coaching or the talent level surrounding him either. His decision making and accuracy have often been quite poor. Combine that with the fact he is a QB under 6 feet tall who also gets balls batted down at the line, and it is a recipe for disaster.

Sometimes the talk around Kyler gives the impression that he is a rookie or 2nd year player, not a 5th year player already making top 10 QB money. "If he improves his foot work", " If he does a better job reading defenses", "If he has a better oline", " If he has better receivers including one that can win jump ball battles", "if his deep ball accuracy improves". Seems like a whole bunch of hopium honestly.

My guess is Monti won't hesitate to move on from Kyler after this year if the next 5 games look similar to the Rams debacle. Especially with a QB class largely considered one of the best in recent years.
 
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BritCard

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You're not wrong. I thought CJ Stroud would be "good Geno" and he's looking closer to Burrow.

Im just saying or at least understanding why just restarting at QB allows it to grow correctly.

Maybe its draft MHJ and draft Penix with the Texans pick, flip Kyler for another pick, etc.

And to your OC point. My biggest fear was Deshaun Watson coming off a layoff and getting in the Browns system suddenly looking washed. Sure he's got demons, etc. However, he looks like a square peg in a round hole in Cleveland. In some ways Kyler looks the same.

I dont see us changing OC's so for Gannon's sake its about which QB, Kyler or draftee, can make it work.

As Dvontel points out though, CJ Stroud doing what he's doing isn't just down to Stroud.

A lot of it is Slowik. A lot of it is Tank Dell.

If Panthers take Stroud he's likely not the same player.

It's like finding a rough diamond. It's not worth much if you don't know how to cut and polish it.
 
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BritCard

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One thing is for sure. I wouldn't want to be Monti.

Damned either way. Has trap written all over it.

Imagine the blowback if you eat that contract, trade Kyler for a bag of peanuts and end up worse off? Which is not an unlikely scenario.

And we wouldn't get much from Kyler. That path has already been proven to be fools gold by Wentz, Darnold and Rosen. We would be extremely lucky to get a 3rd with his contract.
 

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Tough situation now and if KM doesn’t improve an even tougher situation at seasons end. I tend to agree with Brit. Bidwill isn’t eating a big hit from KM’s contract. I just don’t see it. Posturing to give us options for 2025 is much more likely in my opinion. Was really hoping KM would look decent and I still am. This last game was so much the bad KM it is depressing.
 

Russ Smith

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I don't think his 2021 counts as an accrued season because he didn't get signed to the active roster until Christmas of that year. That would mean he has three accrued seasons and is an RFA next year, which is what OTC shows.

It's trivial, anyway. He's not getting more than a minimum salary contract.

The whole point of this season was ostensibly to be bad on purpose and have the flexibility to move on from Kyler Murray when he's not going to have a competitive team around him. Now, the operating theory is let's not be bad on purpose and hopefully draft our QB of the future after going 6-11?


I haven't looked at the numbers and frankly caponomics is just over my head but I agree the only explanation for what we did this offseason was give yourselves the room to move on from Kyler if you decide to do so.

So I think IF we decide at that point he's not the guy, they will move on.

I sincerely hope we don't, I hope he improves and plays well enough we don't think we need to because the draft capital is MUCH more valuable if we don't HAVE to draft a QB. But the last game sure didn't look like a QB who's on the verge of improving.

The first game first half the ball was jumping out of his hand, he was really amped up and I thought great he's got his arm back. But since then save the throw to Rondale, we've seen underthrown deep balls and he doesn't have his arm back yet. Maybe that's the knee, ACL's are generally more than a year thing to get fully back and legs are a big part of throwing a football. But he HAS to show that to be the case before the season ends and he doesn't have very many games left to show that.

The ideal for me has always been Kyler shows enough to pass on QB's, use the picks to build the team, OL, DL, Harrison Jr, CB etc(not saying you can do ALL of those in one draft). So if we truly do get to a point where we have to move on from him then the sincere hope becomes some team like Atlanta or Minnesota is willing to give us a decent offer in exchange because he's not playing well enough to convince me we're going to have a bidding war for him if we trade him.
 

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I'm glad that now most of the board is coming around to the reasoning that the offseason made no sense unless Monti was giving the team room to move on from Kyler if necessary. There was some hardcore denial and excuse making over it in the past.
 

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One thing is for sure. I wouldn't want to be Monti.

Damned either way. Has trap written all over it.

Imagine the blowback if you eat that contract, trade Kyler for a bag of peanuts and end up worse off? Which is not an unlikely scenario.

And we wouldn't get much from Kyler. That path has already been proven to be fools gold by Wentz, Darnold and Rosen. We would be extremely lucky to get a 3rd with his contract.

If after this season MO dumps Murray for say Williams or Maye, and the new QB is not a legit top 10 NFL QB who can carry the team a little, then MO has sealed the fate of JG and co. (ala Frank Reich), and perhaps his own fate too.

The Cardinals will have used so much capital on a meh-or-worse QB, that they (barring some 2nd/3rd/4th round miracle draft picks) won't be able to win enough games in 2024 for JG/NR/DP (and perhaps even Monti) to keep their jobs.

If instead MO tries to build around Murray, and Murray fails in 2024, MO/JG probably gets an opportunity in 2025 to bring in a new QB. That QB would have a far superior cast of supporting talent and would likely have a better chance to succeed than a QB brought in in 2024.

What I'm saying is that IMHO, the safest long-term approach is to try to build around Murray, see how 2024 goes, and if things don't work out then you move on.

Build the roster some (including the defense) and then if necessary inject your new QBOF.

The latter approach also makes damn well and sure that K1 isn't our guy (I'm still 95% sure he is btw).
 

kerouac9

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If instead MO tries to build around Murray, and Murray fails in 2024, MO/JG probably gets an opportunity in 2025 to bring in a new QB
These are mutually exclusive unless you want to wager on a QB outside the top 10. The money you spend to “build around Murray” means it’s not available to swallow his cap hit when we move him.

Indecision is the worst possible option here.
 

Stout

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If after this season MO dumps Murray for say Williams or Maye, and the new QB is not a legit top 10 NFL QB who can carry the team a little, then MO has sealed the fate of JG and co. (ala Frank Reich), and perhaps his own fate too.

The Cardinals will have used so much capital on a meh-or-worse QB, that they (barring some 2nd/3rd/4th round miracle draft picks) won't be able to win enough games in 2024 for JG/NR/DP (and perhaps even Monti) to keep their jobs.

If instead MO tries to build around Murray, and Murray fails in 2024, MO/JG probably gets an opportunity in 2025 to bring in a new QB. That QB would have a far superior cast of supporting talent and would likely have a better chance to succeed than a QB brought in in 2024.

What I'm saying is that IMHO, the safest long-term approach is to try to build around Murray, see how 2024 goes, and if things don't work out then you move on.

Build the roster some (including the defense) and then if necessary inject your new QBOF.

The latter approach also makes damn well and sure that K1 isn't our guy (I'm still 95% sure he is btw).
The problem is that you then set the franchise back yet another year. Cards fans are being asked to swallow a lot of bad football. Propping Kyler up for a do over year only to shrug after 2024 and say, "welp, let's start over again now" would be incredibly bad planning. He's the guy moving forward or he's not the guy. I don't want two seasons of evaluating Kyler and bad football. Maybe that isn't the outcome, but the likelihood is there, and it looks grim.
 

slanidrac16

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If after this season MO dumps Murray for say Williams or Maye, and the new QB is not a legit top 10 NFL QB who can carry the team a little, then MO has sealed the fate of JG and co. (ala Frank Reich), and perhaps his own fate too.

The Cardinals will have used so much capital on a meh-or-worse QB, that they (barring some 2nd/3rd/4th round miracle draft picks) won't be able to win enough games in 2024 for JG/NR/DP (and perhaps even Monti) to keep their jobs.

If instead MO tries to build around Murray, and Murray fails in 2024, MO/JG probably gets an opportunity in 2025 to bring in a new QB. That QB would have a far superior cast of supporting talent and would likely have a better chance to succeed than a QB brought in in 2024.

What I'm saying is that IMHO, the safest long-term approach is to try to build around Murray, see how 2024 goes, and if things don't work out then you move on.

Build the roster some (including the defense) and then if necessary inject your new QBOF.

The latter approach also makes damn well and sure that K1 isn't our guy (I'm still 95% sure he is btw).
This 100%. Everything points to building this team and either enhancing Kyler’s play or exposing him.
The Murray apologist think the anybody assessing the CURRENT Kyler Murray are just haters and we don’t know what we are talking about…and maybe we don’t.
Build this roster and remove all reasons for Kyler to fail.

Bottom line at this point, with an improved roster, all we need from Kyler is to be a little above average.
 

Chopper0080

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Moving up has pretty much been proven to be a disaster lately.

The "get your guy no matter what" thing is atrocious. Like, the Panthers are in absolute shambles now, with no coach, and no picks.

Young, Lance, Fields, Darnold, Rosen, Trubisky, (kinda) Watson, Goff, Wentz, RG3, Gabbert...

The only two success stories are Allen and Mahomes.
The process is sound IMO. It is the execution that is lacking. Probably because the teams doing it are generally train wrecks in the front office and in terms of stability.
 

Chopper0080

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I pretty sure after playing qb your whole life you know or at least you should know not to throw into triple coverage.
I would imagine he should be able to read a defense.
These are the areas where I get frustrated with Kyler. Bad reads, missing easy throws, and not getting the ball out of his hands.
 

kerouac9

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This 100%. Everything points to building this team and either enhancing Kyler’s play or exposing him.
The Murray apologist think the anybody assessing the CURRENT Kyler Murray are just haters and we don’t know what we are talking about…and maybe we don’t.
Build this roster and remove all reasons for Kyler to fail.

Bottom line at this point, with an improved roster, all we need from Kyler is to be a little above average.
To do what? Make the playoffs?
 

Chopper0080

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As Dvontel points out though, CJ Stroud doing what he's doing isn't just down to Stroud.

A lot of it is Slowik. A lot of it is Tank Dell.

If Panthers take Stroud he's likely not the same player.

It's like finding a rough diamond. It's not worth much if you don't know how to cut and polish it.
Disagree. Some of it is about who is around you but it is likely that Stroud find a "Tank Dell" on whatever team he is on. Quality QBs consistently make their OCs and coaches look good. I am sure it helps, but I don't believe the QB coaching is the issue in Carolina. Drafting players like few special traits is a great way to limit your ability to get special outcomes. Young is small. Young is not overly athletic or dynamic. He is a guy who is going to need a lot of help to be successful.
 
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BritCard

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I'm glad that now most of the board is coming around to the reasoning that the offseason made no sense unless Monti was giving the team room to move on from Kyler if necessary. There was some hardcore denial and excuse making over it in the past.

As I pointed out back on page 1 though that idea doesn't make sense.

Moving on from Kyler doesn't effect the cap space. We eat $51m if he stays, or eat $46m if he goes. The only difference is $5 and if we have Kyler or not.

Even if we had only $20m in cap they could move on and draft a rookie QB.
 

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