On the offseason

Crimson Warrior

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This next year should be about winning. Mike B has had 3 seasons to form opinions to make the important decisions, and far longer for Keim. He needs to MAKE those important decisions. You think we just need a "tweak?" You think we can tweak our way out of being late-season choke artists? We need more than a tweak, @Crimson Warrior. You can see that, can't you? We need at least a culture change, a major roster overhaul (we don't have a lot of top players under contract, and we don't have a lot of top players or depth period), and prayers that KK and KM can finally in year FOUR figure it out. IMO, if we remain with the status quo, we need a miracle :)

I hear what you are saying, but this leadership group and team have proven they can win 11 games in one season. That's not easy to do. Don't you agree with that at least?

And maybe I shouldn't have used the work "tweak", because the roster needs a fair amount of adjustment. But, if next year this group can improve its win total by just 9%, that would get us to 12 wins. 12! Do you kind of see where I'm coming from? That a relatively small incremental improvement in performance would yield a pretty appealing win total number?

Your right, the late-season-collapse/big-game failure is an issue, but I would like to give this talented group a chance fix it. That seems like a shorter path to a championship than firing the GM, the coaching staff, and drafting the next QBOTF in April. If you disagree, cool, we'll just agree to disagree.
 

Chopper0080

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This is reasonably accurate and focuses well on the problem. My only thought is the tough love approach others and myself have suggested. Murray is such a premier athlete I hare to give up on him while there is even a slight hope. That said I posted Bidwill (makes it clear it comes from the top) has to have a face-to-face with Murray and specifically address these issues and the proposed solution. If Murray is at all hesitant or defensive; trade him while there are still suckers who would overpay. Maybe the Giants, for example.
I should have posted this in that post as well.

There is 100% a coach out there who could probably maximize Kyler. I doubt our ability to find that coach and then be able to actually get him to come here. My personal opinion is that Kliff is getting about as much out of Kyler as Kyler is willing to put out. I also think Kyler makes Kliff look worse than he is on gameday because he offers little help to a playcaller outside of off-script plays. That isn't to say Kliff doesn't have issues and isn't upgradable but I feel the narrative that Kliff is holding Kyler back is uninformed.
 

Chopper0080

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What will it take? Kyler regressing further? Our full-on meltdown collapses to span 1/2 to 3/4 of the season instead of just the ends of seasons? We are a highly flawed and broken organization at this point. I have no faith in this team from the FO down to the players right now. We have very few cornerstone players under contract, or at all. Our depth is almost nonexistent. We have either a DC who can't utilize his first round picks, a bunch of first-round defensive busts, or kinda both. Like, I'm not seeing why we aren't at that point yet.
Yes. I think it takes the team underachieving in regards to preseason expectations to blow it up. I would fire either Bill Davis or Vance Joseph if I needed a fall guy but past that, it is kinda silly. You kinda need to let someone fail before you can fire them for being a failure. 11 wins in the NFC West counts for something especially when two of those teams are in the second round of the playoffs.

Need to see how everyone responds to our embarrassing loss, Kyler especially.
 

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The answer is to bring in an OC. Someone who can make up for Kliff's deficiencies. An actual play calling OC.

Pederson would be good if he doesn't get a HC role.
 

Crimson Warrior

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His agent is the same agent who floated Kliff's name out there despite Kliff being on record saying he prefers the NFL over college. You don't think it is feasible for the A's to offer Kyler a courtesy spring training invitation to jack around like Russell Wilson has done a couple times?

Your ability to stick your head in the sand and complain that others reasonable critique of Kyler HAS to be a personal dislike. Or it could be that he has constantly said the idea of playing baseball still intrigues him, this would be a way to fulfill that need a bit, and he has an agent that likes to use these types of things as leverage.

Sigh, I guess it's not impossible he would do something like this, but whatever. Just keep in mind he was the 8th best passer in NFL this season:


Better than Herbert, Mahomes, Josh Allen, etc.

and this was still true even after he lost his WR1 for the last seven games of the season (and Dhop wasn't 100% for several games before that).

So keep shoveling dirt on him Chopper. Keep typing that he stunk up the field this year. Let's trade K1 for a ILB, and draft his replacement in April. Or, maybe we could trade two 1sts for Russel Wilson.
 

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The answer is to bring in an OC. Someone who can make up for Kliff's deficiencies. An actual play calling OC.

Pederson would be good if he doesn't get a HC role.
It's just hilarious that people think that Kliff is going to improve if you take away the things he (arguably) does best — play design and -calling. If anything you probably need to force (another?) QB coach on him with more credibility than Cam Turner.
 

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It's just hilarious that people think that Kliff is going to improve if you take away the things he (arguably) does best — play design and -calling. If anything you probably need to force (another?) QB coach on him with more credibility than Cam Turner.
I approve of this message besides that big signature...
 

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I think Kliff's biggest failure was not fully realizing what is needed to make QB like K1 have sustained success in NFL. Kyler can get you 20+ yards on designed run but when you really need it from 4th & inches you one of the few coaches in NFL who doesn't have QB sneak in playbook. Also every sack is 10+ yards cause of the way your QB plays. Those few examples of limitations starting to rear ugly head now more than ever.
 
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The answer is to bring in an OC. Someone who can make up for Kliff's deficiencies. An actual play calling OC.

Pederson would be good if he doesn't get a HC role.

I think where Kliff really needs help is leadership, accountability, eliminating mistakes. Yes it would be great to have a Shanahan or McVay style play caller but most of those guys are either head coaches, or someone's OC already.
 

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I think Kliff's biggest failure was not fully realizing what is needed to make QB like K1 have sustained success in NFL. Kyler can get you 20+ yards on designed run but when you really need it from 4th & inches you one of the few coaches in NFL who doesn't have QB sneak in playbook. Also every sack is 10+ yards cause of the way your QB plays. Those few examples of limitations starting to rear ugly head now more than ever.
Here’s another example. Empty backfield against a defense that is eating our lunch. Okay. But the play called has to be one where the ball comes out in 2.5 seconds. Kylee can’t expect the o-line to give him 4 or 5 seconds for a deep route to develop.
 

dreamcastrocks

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I think Kliff's biggest failure was not fully realizing what is needed to make QB like K1 have sustained success in NFL. Kyler can get you 20+ yards on designed run but when you really need it from 4th & inches you one of the few coaches in NFL who doesn't have QB sneak in playbook. Also every sack is 10+ yards cause of the way your QB plays. Those few examples of limitations starting to rear ugly head now more than ever.
I would have said that was an issue last year. It is why they went out and got Conner. Since we did, I feel like we are going to pick up every single 3rd or 4th and 1.
 

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This isn't accurate any more. The top rusher lines up all over now. Chandler switches sides frequently. And there are many that line up only over the RT. Off the top of my head D-Law, Von Miller, Cam Jordan, Khalil Mack. I'm sure there are plenty more.
Well, I know they get moved around more than years ago, but with most QBs being right handed and most TEs still being positioned on the right, I still see most of the push coming from the QB‘s blind side. Couldn’t really find any stats to support either position.
 

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I should have posted this in that post as well.

There is 100% a coach out there who could probably maximize Kyler. I doubt our ability to find that coach and then be able to actually get him to come here. My personal opinion is that Kliff is getting about as much out of Kyler as Kyler is willing to put out. I also think Kyler makes Kliff look worse than he is on gameday because he offers little help to a playcaller outside of off-script plays. That isn't to say Kliff doesn't have issues and isn't upgradable but I feel the narrative that Kliff is holding Kyler back is uninformed.
You are correct about audibles.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Daniels must have pictures of Keim or Kingsbury. There is no other explanation for bringing him back LAST season.
Agree. The majority of times I’ve heard his name they’ve been for penalties or dropped balls or fumbles.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Russ, I know passions are running high right now, and it's literally nauseating to see Zaven and Isaiah standing on the sidelines while our defense is getting lit up like a christmas tree.

But who is responsible for our two most recent first round picks not playing in the biggest game of the year? Did Keim miss on these guys (certainly plausible), or is VJ not giving them the chance to succeed? If you're sure these two players are talentless and irredeemable, and Keim has failed at drafting again, okay, it's maybe enough to justify moving on from SK.

But if it's on VJ, or someone else on the coaching staff, then I think Keim deserves another year to buff the roster. Like @kerouac9 so articulately stated, this next year is about gathering information so that Mike B can make important decisions. Including retaining Keim, K2, VJ and extending K1.

We collapsed horribly at the end of the season, but we also had it going for a minute too. Wouldn't you rather try to tweak 11-6, try to build on 11-6, vs. changing course? Keim is just as much responsible for getting us to 11-6 as anybody else in the organization.
Don’t we have enough information to make a judgment on keim? We need one more year to let him further damage the team? As for Simmons and Collins, either keim blew it with the talent evaluation or he failed in drafting for Vance. But given his historical record drafting, either failure goes on his record. Keim is an abject failure as a drafted and that’s the most important Avenue for team building for an organization that doesn’t ooze money.
 

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I don't think he tunes out Kliff. I just don't think he does the extra. I think Kliff babies him trying to get him to a point where he realizes that doing the extra is what is going to get him to the level he wants to be.

Despite the context that we are aware of, Kyler does have a ROTY, PB and PB in his first three seasons. He has good stats. His hype is greater than the product he puts out but you can only put that out there so much if the guy isn't seeing it. You bring in a "hard guy" who is likely not a decorated HC based upon what our organization can acquire and Kyler will tune him out and bail. Then you are left with a coach who alienated a young QB and I don't see another Kurt Warner walking through the door. I mentioned Doug Pederson because he at least has a ring to back up his gruff manner.
Soo...babying him isn't the answer and being tough on him isn't the answer. What, then, is the right path to take to hold KM's wittle hand to develop him to the point he WANTS to take that step? What is the path, pray tell? You're just saying what isn't working.
 

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I hear what you are saying, but this leadership group and team have proven they can win 11 games in one season. That's not easy to do. Don't you agree with that at least?

And maybe I shouldn't have used the work "tweak", because the roster needs a fair amount of adjustment. But, if next year this group can improve its win total by just 9%, that would get us to 12 wins. 12! Do you kind of see where I'm coming from? That a relatively small incremental improvement in performance would yield a pretty appealing win total number?

Your right, the late-season-collapse/big-game failure is an issue, but I would like to give this talented group a chance fix it. That seems like a shorter path to a championship than firing the GM, the coaching staff, and drafting the next QBOTF in April. If you disagree, cool, we'll just agree to disagree.
11 wins is nice. In a vacuum, before the season, I would've snapped your hand off for that. If you told me we'd only win 4 games out of the last 10 games, I would've told you to shove it and I want no part of it, and that we should clean house. Perspective. We got on a hot streak, no denying that. I think we got a huge false sense of confidence out of losing our first game only to have it handed back to us by a bad kicker. That kick goes through, and I think we have a very different season. It didn't, and we got off to that hot start, and we got all kinds of full of ourselves. What had we accomplished at that point? Zip, zilch, nada, and we showed that over and over again down the stretch. We can't hide from the trend--yes, trend--this team, these players, this QB, this coach, and the GM that puts the roster together--has set. Do you expect it to go differently next year? How can you expect me to think it will go any better? Doing the same things and expecting different results...well, you know the rest.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I don't think he tunes out Kliff. I just don't think he does the extra. I think Kliff babies him trying to get him to a point where he realizes that doing the extra is what is going to get him to the level he wants to be.

Despite the context that we are aware of, Kyler does have a ROTY, PB and PB in his first three seasons. He has good stats. His hype is greater than the product he puts out but you can only put that out there so much if the guy isn't seeing it. You bring in a "hard guy" who is likely not a decorated HC based upon what our organization can acquire and Kyler will tune him out and bail. Then you are left with a coach who alienated a young QB and I don't see another Kurt Warner walking through the door. I mentioned Doug Pederson because he at least has a ring to back up his gruff manner.
Lol. I eyerolled at “hard guy” bc accountability and discipline doesn’t have to equal jackwad or gruff. You’re also assuming kyler needs to be coddled, but I doubt his father coddled him (tiger mom type parents are usually the opposite) and I doubt Lincoln Riley did either.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I should have posted this in that post as well.

There is 100% a coach out there who could probably maximize Kyler. I doubt our ability to find that coach and then be able to actually get him to come here. My personal opinion is that Kliff is getting about as much out of Kyler as Kyler is willing to put out. I also think Kyler makes Kliff look worse than he is on gameday because he offers little help to a playcaller outside of off-script plays. That isn't to say Kliff doesn't have issues and isn't upgradable but I feel the narrative that Kliff is holding Kyler back is uninformed.
See I think it’s a two way street. I think they’re a bad pairing. I think kyler needs someone to push him, or to be real with him, to be as great as he can be. And I think kliff needs a highly driven self starter to maximize his playbook. Bad pairing. Each flawed. And each individual’s flaws are exacerbated by the others.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Yes. I think it takes the team underachieving in regards to preseason expectations to blow it up. I would fire either Bill Davis or Vance Joseph if I needed a fall guy but past that, it is kinda silly. You kinda need to let someone fail before you can fire them for being a failure. 11 wins in the NFC West counts for something especially when two of those teams are in the second round of the playoffs.

Need to see how everyone responds to our embarrassing loss, Kyler especially.
Man this just ignores kliff’s history - and a BIG volume of history - of imploding. It’s more than a pattern at this juncture. It’s literally become his signature. People could argue that in college it was due to his schedule getting tougher as the season wore on but that just supports the overwhelming evidence that in big games, kliff’s teams go fetal. There’s literally no counter argument to that. He has lost every game in which he could clinch a playoff spot or division over two seasons in the nfl and lost 2 of 3 bowl games at Texas tech. And the line win? Against the kliffiest underachiever of all colleges . . . Arizona State University (and before people jump on me for calling ASU that, you know it’s true. It hurts because it’s true).

Years from now people will referring to bombing end of seasons as Kliffing.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I think where Kliff really needs help is leadership, accountability, eliminating mistakes. Yes it would be great to have a Shanahan or McVay style play caller but most of those guys are either head coaches, or someone's OC already.
I agree. I think kliff’s biggest flaws are lack of leadership, game management, and lack of accountability/discipline. I think he’s grown as a play caller. Still gets too cute or tries to pry his way into a game too often, but okay calling is his strength.
 

Crimson Warrior

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Don’t we have enough information to make a judgment on keim? We need one more year to let him further damage the team? As for Simmons and Collins, either keim blew it with the talent evaluation or he failed in drafting for Vance. But given his historical record drafting, either failure goes on his record. Keim is an abject failure as a drafted and that’s the most important Avenue for team building for an organization that doesn’t ooze money.

If tomorrow we learned that Keim was fired because of his draft failures I would be like:

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It's certainly possible you're right about both SK and K2, and I'm not overwhelmingly in favor of retaining either one of them. I'm really not. But here are the cold hard facts:

2019 win total vs 2018 = +2.5

2020 win total vs 2019 = +3

2021 win total vs 2020 = +3

That's data that I can objectively quantify as steady improvement. And it occurred in the murderers' row of divisions. Also, Kliff is still young. Still gaining experience. I'm not sure he's reached his peak yet. Are you? Keim is still on the path of redemption. Is he capable of greater success than what we've seen this year? Yes. The 2015 squad won 13 games.

You make plenty of valid points, and you may end up being exactly right. But to me, it still comes down to wins and losses, and therefore SK and K2 deserve a chance to finish what they've started. I don't love typing that, but at this moment, I think that's a shorter path to a championship than replacing the GM and coaching staff. If you disagree, cool, but we'll have agree to disagree.
 

Crimson Warrior

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11 wins is nice. In a vacuum, before the season, I would've snapped your hand off for that. If you told me we'd only win 4 games out of the last 10 games, I would've told you to shove it and I want no part of it, and that we should clean house. Perspective. We got on a hot streak, no denying that. I think we got a huge false sense of confidence out of losing our first game only to have it handed back to us by a bad kicker. That kick goes through, and I think we have a very different season. It didn't, and we got off to that hot start, and we got all kinds of full of ourselves. What had we accomplished at that point? Zip, zilch, nada, and we showed that over and over again down the stretch. We can't hide from the trend--yes, trend--this team, these players, this QB, this coach, and the GM that puts the roster together--has set. Do you expect it to go differently next year? How can you expect me to think it will go any better? Doing the same things and expecting different results...well, you know the rest.

Not saying you're completely wrong or crazy. But if you think the 2021 season was as only as successful as the 2020 season, fine, we'll have to agree to disagree. If you say that SK is not capable of greater success than what he generated this year, or that K2 is not capable of growing as an NFL head coach, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I'm not super confident that this group of leaders can make this team better next year, but I think they deserve a chance to try to do so. Just my opinion.
 

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It's just hilarious that people think that Kliff is going to improve if you take away the things he (arguably) does best — play design and -calling. If anything you probably need to force (another?) QB coach on him with more credibility than Cam Turner.

1. He can still do play design
2. He isn't very good at calling plays

This idea that he has to be in control of play calling to have any value is silly. Sean McVay no longer calls plays and hasn't since 2019. Is it any less his offense?

He needs someone that can be a hammer so he can continue being coach bro.
 

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