If you think we should move on from Kyler then answer this...

BritCard

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If we trade Kyler we have to eat $46m in dead cap. How do yo provide a team for the rookie QB?

Spotrac says we have $47m in cap space. I don't believe that includes rollover from this year yet, but also I don't think that includes the rookie draft pool. So let's call those 2 things a wash.

Our receivers under contract are Wilson and Rondale. We need a LG. We need RB depth. We need TE depth. We need CB's. We need edge and DL. We have draft capital but it can only do so much and you can't go into a draft needing certain positions.

How do people see this working? How would you put a roster together for a Drake Maye without dooming him to failure?
 

kerouac9

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Overthecap has us with $64 million in cap space (which they say includes rollovers).

Greg Dortch will also be under contract if we want to keep him.

Cut or trade Budda Baker and you get $14.6 million in additional cap space.

You can extend The Captain for 2 years and open up to $10 million in additional space.

You can ask Zach Ertz to take a cut on his insane $8 million 2024 salary.

There's plenty of money if you don't want to prioritize winning for another season but still support a young QB with offensive line and weapons like Conner. The defense doesn't have to matter for another year.
 

Chopper0080

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If we trade Kyler we have to eat $46m in dead cap. How do yo provide a team for the rookie QB?

Spotrac says we have $47m in cap space. I don't believe that includes rollover from this year yet, but also I don't think that includes the rookie draft pool. So let's call those 2 things a wash.

Our receivers under contract are Wilson and Rondale. We need a LG. We need RB depth. We need TE depth. We need CB's. We need edge and DL. We have draft capital but it can only do so much and you can't go into a draft needing certain positions.

How do people see this working? How would you put a roster together for a Drake Maye without dooming him to failure?
We have 64.9 in space...trading Kyler adds 5.6 mil to that. Cutting Kyler with a post-June designation frees up 3.5 mil more. What we can't afford to do is cut Kyler with a pre-June designation. (all of this according to OTC)

(I posted this in another thread but feel it is also appropriate here)
 
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Overthecap has us with $64 million in cap space (which they say includes rollovers).

Greg Dortch will also be under contract if we want to keep him.

Cut or trade Budda Baker and you get $14.6 million in additional cap space.

You can extend The Captain for 2 years and open up to $10 million in additional space.

You can ask Zach Ertz to take a cut on his insane $8 million 2024 salary.

There's plenty of money if you don't want to prioritize winning for another season but still support a young QB with offensive line and weapons like Conner. The defense doesn't have to matter for another year.

We had this conversation before. OTC numbers are wrong for some reason. It says we have $202m in cap liabilities next year but $65m in cap space. That would make the salary cap $267m. Yet their own estimates page says it's thought to be $256m. That's what Sportac has, and that error is most of the difference.

You take off the rookie pool and the error and were back to the Spotrac number which is 100% wiped out by trading Kyler.

Pretty sure this year was Dortch's last year as a restricted FA and he's UFA next year.

So were losing,

Dortch
Hollywood
Swaim
Watkins
Hamilton
Brewer
Wilkinson
Josh Woods
Collier
Strong
Barnes
Fotu
Ledbetter

All of these are playing or were due to play significant snaps and need resigning or replacing. That's $14m if all are replaced by guys on vet min.

Let's say half can be replaced by draft picks, and call it $7m. That's just to get us back to break even ish. You can do that by cutting Ertz. And we get $5 savings on Kyler.

That leaves $5m for improvements. We're going into the season with a rookie QB and a roster as bad as this year. Maybe we get lucky and a couple of draft picks are instant studs.
 
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We have 64.9 in space...trading Kyler adds 5.6 mil to that. Cutting Kyler with a post-June designation frees up 3.5 mil more. What we can't afford to do is cut Kyler with a pre-June designation. (all of this according to OTC)

(I posted this in another thread but feel it is also appropriate here)

We don't. See above.
 

Chopper0080

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Overthecap has us with $64 million in cap space (which they say includes rollovers).

Greg Dortch will also be under contract if we want to keep him.

Cut or trade Budda Baker and you get $14.6 million in additional cap space.

You can extend The Captain for 2 years and open up to $10 million in additional space.

You can ask Zach Ertz to take a cut on his insane $8 million 2024 salary.

There's plenty of money if you don't want to prioritize winning for another season but still support a young QB with offensive line and weapons like Conner. The defense doesn't have to matter for another year.
I don't believe you even really need to cut any player other than Ertz. Again, the misconception is you have to have all stars around your rookie QB for them to be decent. Stroud is showing that isn't a fact.
 

kerouac9

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We had this conversation before. OTC numbers are wrong for some reason.
You don't like OTC's numbers so you say they're wrong. I have no reason to believe they're off. Ask Jason_OTC for an explanation on X.
 

kerouac9

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We had this conversation before. OTC numbers are wrong for some reason. It says we have $202m in cap liabilities next year but $65m in cap space. That would make the salary cap $267m. Yet their own estimates page says it's thought to be $256m. That's what Sportac has, and that error is most of the difference.

You take off the rookie pool and the error and were back to the Spotrac number which is 100% wiped out by trading Kyler.

Pretty sure this year was Dortch's last year as a restricted FA and he's UFA next year.

So were losing,

Dortch
Hollywood
Swaim
Watkins
Hamilton
Brewer
Wilkinson
Josh Woods
Collier
Strong
Barnes
Fotu
Ledbetter

All of these are playing or were due to play significant snaps and need resigning or replacing. That's $14m if all are replaced by guys on vet min.

Let's say half can be replaced by draft picks, and call it $7m. That's just to get us back to break even ish. You can do that by cutting Ertz. And we get $5 savings on Kyler.

That leaves $5m for improvements. We're going into the season with a rookie QB and a roster as bad as this year. Maybe we get lucky and a couple of draft picks are instant studs.
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The alternative is, if KM isn't the guy and you don't move on from him, you're delaying the inevitable pain in the rebuild. We're going to be set back an extra year regardless, so do it sooner rather than later.

The alternative is, you spend all your draft capital and FA money vastly improving the roster. Give Kyler a year with an an actual offseason to improve in the scheme and then worse case move on a year later, only eat $33m in dead money and bring in a new QB with a roster with actual talent on it.
 

football karma

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"Dead Cap Charge" doesn't always equal "Less Cap Space overall"

a pre-June 1 trade of Murray would mean a $46mm dead cap charge. BUT: he will have a $51mm cap hit to begin with. So -- the team's available cap space goes up by $5mm by trading him.

AND: you open up nearly $50mm in 2025 cap availability as well.

Further: structuring contracts to be next to nothing in year 1 (i.e. 2024 season) and then increasing in the out years is pretty easy
 
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I have no idea what year you are looking at, but everything says he's UFA next year and considering after 3 years accrued you gain vet status and are no longer eligible for RFA status and he's been with us for 3 years I'm going to guess they are right.
 

Arz101

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Why do the fans care about football money over winning..it is all accounting and maneuvering which is easy to do.

if Kyler being off the team makes them a better team they have options to play with money here.

How bad you must be as 3rd Gen owner to get everything wrong in the past 6 years or so ?
 
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"Dead Cap Charge" doesn't always equal "Less Cap Space overall"

a pre-June 1 trade of Murray would mean a $46mm dead cap charge. BUT: he will have a $51mm cap hit to begin with. So -- the team's available cap space goes up by $5mm by trading him.

AND: you open up nearly $50mm in 2025 cap availability as well.

Further: structuring contracts to be next to nothing in year 1 (i.e. 2024 season) and then increasing in the out years is pretty easy

Of course, my mistake. We are already eating the cap space either way whether he is here or not. The only difference is if we have the player or not.

A mistake I think more than I have made because that also makes the whole "the only reason we built the cap space up was to move on" argument void.

If we drafted Maye it would cost us about $55 to that room next year but then drop subsequent years.
 
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Why do the fans care about football money over winning..it is all accounting and maneuvering which is easy to do.

if Kyler being off the team makes them a better team they have options to play with money here.

How bad you must be as 3rd Gen owner to get everything wrong in the past 6 years or so ?

Because money is winning. Obvs. Ain't nobody winning with badly managed rosters and cap space.
 

kerouac9

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I have no idea what year you are looking at, but everything says he's UFA next year and considering after 3 years accrued you gain vet status and are no longer eligible for RFA status and he's been with us for 3 years I'm going to guess they are right.

I don't think his 2021 counts as an accrued season because he didn't get signed to the active roster until Christmas of that year. That would mean he has three accrued seasons and is an RFA next year, which is what OTC shows.

It's trivial, anyway. He's not getting more than a minimum salary contract.

The whole point of this season was ostensibly to be bad on purpose and have the flexibility to move on from Kyler Murray when he's not going to have a competitive team around him. Now, the operating theory is let's not be bad on purpose and hopefully draft our QB of the future after going 6-11?
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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The alternative is, you spend all your draft capital and FA money vastly improving the roster. Give Kyler a year with an an actual offseason to improve in the scheme and then worse case move on a year later, only eat $33m in dead money and bring in a new QB with a roster with actual talent on it.
Hey gang, Brit is only asking everyone to be patient through four straight god awful seasons.

Last season
This season
Next season if kyler stinks
Rookie QB season (stroud season kinda an outlier)
 

kerouac9

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Hey gang, Brit is only asking everyone to be patient through four straight god awful seasons.

Last season
This season
Next season if kyler stinks
Rookie QB season (stroud season kinda an outlier)
How has Monti Ossenfort not earned the benefit of the doubt here?
 

Chopper0080

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We don't. See above.
1 - Spotrac isn't factoring in cap carryover which OTC projects to be around 11 mil.

2 - Spotrac has 2 mil more in cap liabilities than OTC. I can't really see why.

3 - Spotrac has the salary cap proj to 251 mil while OTC has 256 ml.
 

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If Kyler was the only thing wrong with this team, I would say release him, but he isn't. We have so many holes on this team, it is ridiculous. If we have the #1 or #2 pick, we could select a QB but as of today, we would most likely select third. This should give us Marvin Harrison who could fill a major hole as a #1 WR. Let MB walk. He doesn't have a position on this team and let some other team overpay him.

I was hoping the new coaching staff would sit Kyler down and tell him what he needs to do to become an elite QB. Sadly, this does not seem to have happened. The biggest improvement I was expecting from Kyler was mentally. I was hoping Kyler would get the message when Hopkins was released, that if you are not 100% dedicated to the team you will be gone. Kyler needs to spend more time studying in the film room, learning the mismatches. He needs to know which receivers are open before the ball is snapped. He needs to throw receivers open, instead of waiting for the receiver to get open and then through the ball.

Lastly, he needs to play under center. If the first drive, he played under center and used play action to hit the receiver for short high percentage throws. Then they stopped and Kyler went back to the shotgun. Conner runs better with the QB under center and the offense is more efficient. We still have a few more games. Hopefully, they can turn it around.
 

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Forget about it. Kyler is here no matter what some of us think. Many believe this is training camp for Kyler and he will get it together.
HOWEVER, I could see us using a second round pick on a Qb with the” reasoning” to have a competent back up QB.
 

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Im not sure we should move on from Kyler.
Maye has been meh for his hype. Caleb has the fear of a guy thinking he's got it made before he does.

The problem is neither of those have been broken yet. Has 4 years of Keim, ACL injury, just sorta made Kyler washed as a Cardinal?
Maye and Williams off the potential of building things up the right way.

For Kyler, maybe he needed Sean Payton. Maybe he needs to rebuild elsewhere. For us maybe we need a QB who can organically grow in a better organization.

Again I'd rather Kyler ball out the last few games, draft MHJ or get haul and power on to 2024. Its up to Kyler to make that decision for us.
 

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