AYTON TRADED!

Mainstreet

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No. It is absolutely obvious.

He's not at a leverage disadvantage. He just doesn't know it or know how to use it - or just as bad doesn't have the confidence to do it.

He doesn't even need to bump him from that position, but could definitely bend over him to feel where his exact advantage is

Real basic footwork and body position you have him sealed.

Could be experience, but that would speak to a lack of coaching and work previously as this is really basic stuff.

Just comes off as really passive.

There is zero CP can do to keep him from scoring without help and Chet doesn't even do enough to make the defense adjust or draw help to free a teammate.

If he's to reach his potential that needs to get in his game quick

Bol Bol would have eaten Paul alive...
 

MigratingOsprey

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Bol Bol would have eaten Paul alive...
Bol has a poor post game.

He prefers to get the ball high - FT to 3pt line and then use his size and ball handling to elevate the ball and get to the rim

You get him 1v1 against Paul in the post and he cooks him all day though - he sure isn't making a terrible pass.

Bol has the mindset to get to the rim once he has the ball.

He just wouldn't find himself in the position to be isolated against a guard close to the basket.

That's the difficult part. It's not easy to get such favorable positions, but when you have them take them.

He's just not strong/skilled/willing enough to establish that position and wants to play closer to someone like Dirk for style
 

Mainstreet

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Bol has a poor post game.

He prefers to get the ball high - FT to 3pt line and then use his size and ball handling to elevate the ball and get to the rim

You get him 1v1 against Paul in the post and he cooks him all day though - he sure isn't making a terrible pass.

Bol has the mindset to get to the rim once he has the ball.

He just wouldn't find himself in the position to be isolated against a guard close to the basket.

That's the difficult part. It's not easy to get such favorable positions, but when you have them take them.

He's just not strong/skilled/willing enough to establish that position and wants to play closer to someone like Dirk for style

I was joking in regard to Bol Bol.

Pertaining to Holmgren, Chris Paul has very strong hands and great position. If Holmgren had thoughts about bringing the ball down in front of Paul, he might have been wise to pass the ball.
 
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MigratingOsprey

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Paul was giving him a lot there. First one was more excusable as Paul was on his open side hip, there was a defender to help from the line and a defender in the near paint.

Chet needed to go quick, he didn't but did the right thing by giving a fake that drew the defender to the far side of the paint - Paul gives him a forearm to the hip, which would have been the time to seal him and go baseline - instead, he waits for the help defense to drop and then forces a pass to the area where the defense has shifted to from when he faked it.

The second Paul set up really hard on his side, should have been a quick and easy seal to the baseline - it was really open

Could be scouting and part of his game where he may not be comfortable working to baseline

It's not good though and he deserves some educational razzing
 

Raindog

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I'm glad that no one is casting direct insults at the kid. He's an enigma, and for him I hope he gets things worked out.

He's a modern day Joe Barry Carroll.
There is a bit of difference between guys like JB Carroll and James Edwards, who were decent but ultimately not great big men who failed to maximize their talents because they just weren't motivated to excel, and guys like Benoit Benjamin, Chris Washburn, William Bedford, Michael Olowokandi, etc., who failed because they were all-around fools and screwups. They were all frustrating to some extent to the teams they played for, but the former at least had productive careers, even if they fell short of what they could have been.

I expect when all is said and done, Ayton will likely be remembered more as fitting into the first group than the latter.
 

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Ayton and the Blazers are a great fit. Saw this going around Twitter. The Blazers list NBA2k badges on player scouting reports. This is from yesterday.

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There is a bit of difference between guys like JB Carroll and James Edwards, who were decent but ultimately not great big men who failed to maximize their talents because they just weren't motivated to excel, and guys like Benoit Benjamin, Chris Washburn, William Bedford, Michael Olowokandi, etc., who failed because they were all-around fools and screwups. They were all frustrating to some extent to the teams they played for, but the former at least had productive careers, even if they fell short of what they could have been.

I expect when all is said and done, Ayton will likely be remembered more as fitting into the first group than the latter.
I’ll be honest, the only reason Ayton will be remembered at all is because he was a #1 pick.
 

Proximo

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I’ll be honest, the only reason Ayton will be remembered at all is because he was a #1 pick.
Well you say that but this thread just keeps getting longer and longer.

There seems to be a rooting for his failure.
 

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Well you say that but this thread just keeps getting longer and longer.
I mean outside of Suns fans.

There seems to be a rooting for his failure.

Probably only to people who used to bash Suns fans who saw Ayton for what he was almost immediately.

There’s no need to root for something you already know the outcome of.
 
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Ouchie-Z-Clown

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No. It is absolutely obvious.

He's not at a leverage disadvantage. He just doesn't know it or know how to use it - or just as bad doesn't have the confidence to do it.

He doesn't even need to bump him from that position, but could definitely bend over him to feel where his exact advantage is

Real basic footwork and body position you have him sealed.

Could be experience, but that would speak to a lack of coaching and work previously as this is really basic stuff.

Just comes off as really passive.

There is zero CP can do to keep him from scoring without help and Chet doesn't even do enough to make the defense adjust or draw help to free a teammate.

If he's to reach his potential that needs to get in his game quick
I obviously know nothing about you. But as a 5’11 guy who relied on low center of gravity, strength, and savvy to guard guys lighter, and weaker but often 4-7 inches taller than me (and skilled, not stiffs) we either aren’t talking about the same thing when I talk “leverage” or you just don’t understand leverage in this context. We will just have to disagree.
 

Hoop Head

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Well you say that but this thread just keeps getting longer and longer.

There seems to be a rooting for his failure.

I don't believe anyone here wants to see Ayton fail. That was an excuse lobbied regularly when he was on the team and it made less sense back then. Now that he's gone, what does it say if he fails? It only makes the Suns look worse for picking him ahead of a likely Hall of Fame talent in Luka, it doesn't change the trade package we received, and we don't have cap space to bring him back down the line if we wanted to.

It wouldn't feel great if he turned it on in Portland but that's not happening and the same people who said people were "haters" made the same claim he'd turn it on anytime now throughout the last 5 seasons. He kept showing us he didn't care about competing at a high level, he wanted financial security. That's fine, his call, but to pretend it's personal or anyone wants to see him fall flat on his face doesn't jive with reality. No one has attacked him as a person outside of questioning his work ethic and maturity, which is entirely fair given his stature as the franchises only #1 overall pick and how he seemed to believe what he was doing was more than enough.
 

MigratingOsprey

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I obviously know nothing about you. But as a 5’11 guy who relied on low center of gravity, strength, and savvy to guard guys lighter, and weaker but often 4-7 inches taller than me (and skilled, not stiffs) we either aren’t talking about the same thing when I talk “leverage” or you just don’t understand leverage in this context. We will just have to disagree.
I'm 6'5" and whenever you pushed I'd work against you.

It would be a layup line.

Just like my 6'8" brother can do to me

It's in the feet and leverage points.

Even in the clip you could see Paul pretty much only being able to play a hip and having to play it aggressively.

Think of it like tug of war when someone lets the rope slip and the other side falls back or if you are pushing into someone and they move you will stumble

That's leverage

If someone is low on you and pushing, straight up defense, you can bend back over them, establish your hip, etc. Little moments to feel and influence where they push. Then use longer legs and frame with footwork to seal them. Typical worst case is you get fouled.

Or just be half lazy and shoot over the top.

The problem is that it doesn't look like he knows how to do this. With so many bigger guys they don't put in the work to learn or expend the energy to work in that area.

A lot of also how the game is moving.

Take a mid to high post area, float to the arc or slash, catch the ball 18' out and eurostep to finish

Most everything is facing.

Facing a guard isn't great for a big in the post because it's easier for them to rip the ball.

So if you can't function with your back even halfway turned to the rim, it creates odd situations where you don't exploit mismatches

Players like KD & Dirk figured this stuff out and would play the advantage, even if they weren't looking to be actual post players

Chet needs to develop it and shouldn't just accept that a PG may be string and physical, so there's nothing to do and no advantage
 

MigratingOsprey

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I don't see anytime looking for ayton to fail.

It's also a question of how do you define failure? He's going to play a decade in the league and be pretty much a double double guy with some flashy moments.

Hard to really call that a failure.

I just don't see him ever living up to the draft position, contract and athletic potential of a guy who could be a top 3-5 big
 

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I don't believe anyone here wants to see Ayton fail.

Ayton failed here and he earned his failure... but don't kid yourself. There are quite a few people who desperately wanted him to fail from the jump.

It is hard to describe how petty the college rivalry is for some people.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I'm 6'5" and whenever you pushed I'd work against you.

It would be a layup line.

Just like my 6'8" brother can do to me

It's in the feet and leverage points.

Even in the clip you could see Paul pretty much only being able to play a hip and having to play it aggressively.

Think of it like tug of war when someone lets the rope slip and the other side falls back or if you are pushing into someone and they move you will stumble

That's leverage

If someone is low on you and pushing, straight up defense, you can bend back over them, establish your hip, etc. Little moments to feel and influence where they push. Then use longer legs and frame with footwork to seal them. Typical worst case is you get fouled.

Or just be half lazy and shoot over the top.

The problem is that it doesn't look like he knows how to do this. With so many bigger guys they don't put in the work to learn or expend the energy to work in that area.

A lot of also how the game is moving.

Take a mid to high post area, float to the arc or slash, catch the ball 18' out and eurostep to finish

Most everything is facing.

Facing a guard isn't great for a big in the post because it's easier for them to rip the ball.

So if you can't function with your back even halfway turned to the rim, it creates odd situations where you don't exploit mismatches

Players like KD & Dirk figured this stuff out and would play the advantage, even if they weren't looking to be actual post players

Chet needs to develop it and shouldn't just accept that a PG may be string and physical, so there's nothing to do and no advantage
I don’t disagree with anything your saying. A very skilled and experienced taller player will always have the advantage. But you’re clearly not understanding my point. So let’s just drop this.
 

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Ayton failed here and he earned his failure... but don't kid yourself. There are quite a few people who desperately wanted him to fail from the jump.

It is hard to describe how petty the college rivalry is for some people.
That’s ridiculous. Who are these people who wanted him to fail because he was from U of A?
 

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That’s ridiculous. Who are these people who wanted him to fail because he was from U of A?
Yeah - this is pure U of A younger brother syndrome. I'd LOVE to see any evidence of this ASU contingent wanting him to fail. Hell most of us ASU fans were on board with drafting him.

Pure fantasy.
 

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Are we still having a pity party for a grown ass man who can score 12pts and grab 8 boards in a single quarter ANYTIME HE WANTS TO?
 

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I saw that the trailblazers won last night snapping their seven-game skid. But I don't see Ayton in the box score. Is he hurt?
 

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Phrazbit

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That’s ridiculous. Who are these people who wanted him to fail because he was from U of A?

Does that honestly surprise you? There are some utterly insanely irrational college sports fans out there.

I know a couple personally, there are also a few drive by posters who have made their opinions known on this forum.
 

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Does that honestly surprise you? There are some utterly insanely irrational college sports fans out there.

I know a couple personally, there are also a few drive by posters who have made their opinions known on this forum.

I'm an ASU fan and alumni but once a player leaves the college down the road, I couldn't care less where he played.

I was a strong supporter of the Suns drafting Deandre Ayton and would like to have TJ McConnell on the team.

Is it possible that you may be seeing all ASU fans through a paradigm?
 

Cheesebeef

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I'm an ASU fan and alumni but once a player leaves the college down the road, I couldn't care less where he played.

I was a strong supporter of the Suns drafting Deandre Ayton and would like to have TJ McConnell on the team.

Is it possible that you may be seeing all ASU fans through a paradigm?
I think it’s more seeing Ayton through a U of A prism.
 

Phrazbit

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I think it’s more seeing Ayton through a U of A prism.

No, I literally know people who absolutely despised him from the jump and wanted him to fail.

I am not saying this is some large swath of people, but I personally know a couple (one of them being an uncle) and you could absolutely a few loud hecklers basically every single game for years and years.

I really am surprised that you find this surprising. The hatred between UofA and ASU, going both ways, is absolutely insane with some people.
 
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