The official Gannon/Monti/Petzing should be fired thread……

[kerouac9]

It's so tough because everyone on this board pretty much knows the issue is Bidwill, but when Monti and Gannon struggle (I omitted Kyler because there is another thread for that) people minimize that Bidwill is the issue. I have zero clue if Monti and Gannon are able to ever be good, but I also can't really expect anyone to come in and turn things around in three years. I know Arians did it, but Bidwill still managed to mess that up.

Bidwill didn’t lose to the Titans though.

The way I got around to Kliff needing to go was that things had become so sour that he was the easiest path to change the trajectory. I don’t think that’s the case with Gannon, but if this ends up a four-win team it will likely sound that way.

 

[Chopper0080]

Bidwill didn’t lose to the Titans though.

The way I got around to Kliff needing to go was that things had become so sour that he was the easiest path to change the trajectory. I don’t think that’s the case with Gannon, but if this ends up a four-win team it will likely sound that way.

And I guess that's the issue with discussing it now. At this point, it doesn't seem like Gannon has lost the locker room. When he does, I'm fine with making a move.

 

[kerouac9]

And I guess that's the issue with discussing it now. At this point, it doesn't seem like Gannon has lost the locker room. When he does, I'm fine with making a move.

It’s not really even about losing the locker room. No one knows what that means, and most of these guys are aware that MOJG are invested in them and they know keeping the current staff in place maximizes their opportunity to keep a job.

But if you have a simple message (winning behavior/good habits/etc) and it doesn’t turn into results, how else are you going to show there’s a way forward?

Although I’ve never seen a more obvious situation of a coach losing the locker room than Kliff at the end of hard knocks. Just brutal.

 

[cardcrazy]

I would be perfectly fine with firing Gannon after this season, (barring a miraculous turn around) based primarily on the inexcusable Tennessee loss.
But I predict…
This team will likely rally a bit and possibly win half of their remaining gauntlet.
A forgettable 7-10 season.
Bidwill retains Gannon for another year but he starts next season with a warm seat.
My hope is they draft a 1st round QB and either trade or keep Murray around with the threat of his replacement standing on the sidelines.

 

[Cheesebeef]

It's so tough because everyone on this board pretty much knows the issue is Bidwill, but when Monti and Gannon struggle (I omitted Kyler because there is another thread for that) people minimize that Bidwill is the issue. I have zero clue if Monti and Gannon are able to ever be good, but I also can't really expect anyone to come in and turn things around in three years. I know Arians did it, but Bidwill still managed to mess that up.

Wiz also took this team to the Super Bowl and playoffs twice in three years.

Hell, even Kliff got this team to .500 in year 2 and 11 wins and the playoffs in year 3.

Will Bidwill eventually mess things up, even from the start? Sure. But a good Coach/GM can and have overcome bad ownership for stretches, not been amongst the league’s worst for the entire tenure.

No one is saying this team needs to be a Super Bowl contender under Monti and Gannon. But the truth is we are in year 3, have one of the worst records in the league and the combo is one 4 game winning streak in the middle of last season away from being a complete and utter abomination over the entirety of their three year stretch. That was the only brief stretch of sustained success… that came against the hapless Jets, Bears, Miami and a decent Chargers team.

 

[Stout]

And I guess that's the issue with discussing it now. At this point, it doesn't seem like Gannon has lost the locker room. When he does, I'm fine with making a move.

Not losing the locker room is not a benchmark for keeping a coach, though. Sure, if he does lose the locker room, that's bad and he should be gone. Just having guys playing hard while you can't coach your way out of a wet paper bag is not the marker of a coach who should be retained. And, to face facts, Gannon has been subpar at his job this season.

 

[Weenus O'Baggins]

Wiz also took this team to the Super Bowl and playoffs twice in three years.

I met Wiz after the first year and I said thanks for taking us to 8-8 and I was serious because we hadn't been .500 or above in forever. In fact, we had lost 10 or more games in 8 of 10 years.

He actually got pissed at me and told me 8-8 isn't good enough ever.

 

[Chopper0080]

Wiz also took this team to the Super Bowl and playoffs twice in three years.

Hell, even Kliff got this team to .500 in year 2 and 11 wins and the playoffs in year 3.

Will Bidwill eventually mess things up, even from the start? Sure. But a good Coach/GM can and have overcome bad ownership for stretches, not been amongst the league’s worst for the entire tenure.

No one is saying this team needs to be a Super Bowl contender under Monti and Gannon. But the truth is we are in year 3, have one of the worst records in the league and the combo is one 4 game winning streak in the middle of last season away from being a complete and utter abomination over the entirety of their three year stretch. That was the only brief stretch of sustained success… that came against the hapless Jets, Bears, Miami and a decent Chargers team.

Do we have to suspend hope until a Hall of Fame QB walks through the door tho? That was the case with Whis.

 

[Chopper0080]

All I know is that the churn of HCs over the history of the franchise in AZ has led us to this point. When do we try something different?

 

[Stout]

All I know is that the churn of HCs over the history of the franchise in AZ has led us to this point. When do we try something different?

Stick with a loser showing bad traits as a coach? Hmm...

 

[BooksOrangePlanet]

All I know is that the churn of HCs over the history of the franchise in AZ has led us to this point. When do we try something different?

like lock all the hc candidates in the same room with a 15' ladder as the only escape

 

[kerouac9]

All I know is that the churn of HCs over the history of the franchise in AZ has led us to this point. When do we try something different?

Can you think of a head coach who was as big a failure as Gannon has been for three seasons and then turned it around for consistent success?

Kyle Shanahan was 10-22 through two seasons then went 13-3. Bill Belicheck was 20-28 through his first three seasons in Cleveland.

I don’t think our bad ownership makes good coaches mid. I think our bad ownership repels good coaches. If JG has a grand scheme to make us consistently successful, he’s certainly slow-playing it.

 

[Chopper0080]

Stick with a loser showing bad traits as a coach? Hmm...

Or is being a close loser better than being a not-close loser?

 

[Chopper0080]

Can you think of a head coach who was as big a failure as Gannon has been for three seasons and then turned it around for consistent success?

Kyle Shanahan was 10-22 through two seasons then went 13-3. Bill Belicheck was 20-28 through his first three seasons in Cleveland.

I don’t think our bad ownership makes good coaches mid. I think our bad ownership repels good coaches. If JG has a grand scheme to make us consistently successful, he’s certainly slow-playing it.

No. And that isn't a depressing deep dive that I want to really explore.

My personal issue is that there are more things that I dislike (don't believe in) more than Gannon. Kyler is not a winning QB, and his ineptitude had more to do with the Titans loss than Gannon, IMO. Bidwill is an awful owner that exudes failure. Monti chose a plan to punt the 2023 season like he somehow had the resume to earn the right to throw away seasons. I also think they have had the worst injury luck in relation to players they needed to fill key roles. They also have been competitive in every game they have played this year so they do seem close.

All of that is cope. 100%. I don't want to give Monti another chance to mess up a HC hire and then fire him in two years. I want a chance to see the young players we drafted play in the system there were drafted to play in. I pretty much believe that the next HC they hire is going to be the next Kliff who was the next Arians and then he will be fired and they will hire the next Gannon, who was already the next Wilks.

All inexperienced. All learning. All climbing Everest when they think they are trying to summit a local 14er.

 

[Proteus]

No. And that isn't a depressing deep dive that I want to really explore.

My personal issue is that there are more things that I dislike (don't believe in) more than Gannon. Kyler is not a winning QB, and his ineptitude had more to do with the Titans loss than Gannon, IMO. Bidwill is an awful owner that exudes failure. Monti chose a plan to punt the 2023 season like he somehow had the resume to earn the right to throw away seasons. I also think they have had the worst injury luck in relation to players they needed to fill key roles. They also have been competitive in every game they have played this year so they do seem close.

All of that is cope. 100%. I don't want to give Monti another chance to mess up a HC hire and then fire him in two years. I want a chance to see the young players we drafted play in the system there were drafted to play in. I pretty much believe that the next HC they hire is going to be the next Kliff who was the next Arians and then he will be fired and they will hire the next Gannon, who was already the next Wilks.

All inexperienced. All learning. All climbing Everest when they think they are trying to summit a local 14er.

When would JG have to at least have a .500 season or better or be fired? How long would JG have before the team has to make the playoffs or be fired?
I'm not a fan of rebuilds lasting more than 3 more seasons and I really don't like rebuilds taking more than 4 seasons.

 

[Harry]

And I guess that's the issue with discussing it now. At this point, it doesn't seem like Gannon has lost the locker room. When he does, I'm fine with making a move.

I would put more stock in this if I saw better veteran leadership on the team. Campbell just got here. Baker is perhaps having his worst season. Connor is out. Where’s the guy who holds everyone accountable. Virtually every power team has at least one. The Cards have not cultivated a leader. That tells me the culture is flawed. It’s not surprising there is no internal dispute.

 

[Harry]

Keep in mind getting Arians was a fluke. How many times does a winning coach get made available by his team? I will credit Bidwill for seizing the opportunity, but it’s unlikely to happen again.

 

[kerouac9]

I would put more stock in this if I saw better veteran leadership on the team. Campbell just got here. Baker is perhaps having his worst season. Connor is out. Where’s the guy who holds everyone accountable. Virtually every power team has at least one. The Cards have not cultivated a leader. That tells me the culture is flawed. It’s not surprising there is no internal dispute.

PJJ stood up for his teammate

 

[Stout]

Or is being a close loser better than being a not-close loser?

A loser is a loser. Listen, if they were close losses as in "man, we're still rebuilding and almost keep completing the comeback," it would be one thing. Close losses as in "man, this is year three and they are coaching scared and stupid to lose games at the end" is unacceptable. But hey, if you love it, you do you. You can enjoy and support that football. Not me.

 

[Chopper0080]

When would JG have to at least have a .500 season or better or be fired? How long would JG have before the team has to make the playoffs or be fired?
I'm not a fan of rebuilds lasting more than 3 more seasons and I really don't like rebuilds taking more than 4 seasons.

I guess I will answer a question with a question. Why give a HC a 5 year deal if you are going to fire him in 3? Why would you keep a GM whose first HC hire is someone you are firing early?

 

[Stout]

I guess I will answer a question with a question. Why give a HC a 5 year deal if you are going to fire him in 3? Why would you keep a GM whose first HC hire is someone you are firing early?

I'll pose a question to your questions: If we get more of the same next season, do you fire one or both? How long do you put up with horrible losing football?

 

[Chopper0080]

I'll pose a question to your questions: If we get more of the same next season, do you fire one or both? How long do you put up with horrible losing football?

I'm ok with firing both this year if the decision is that this leadership isn't working out. Certainly next year.

I am not interested in keeping just one of them to try again with a different counterpart.

 

[kerouac9]

I guess I will answer a question with a question. Why give a HC a 5 year deal if you are going to fire him in 3? Why would you keep a GM whose first HC hire is someone you are firing early?

Well there are tons of externalities around contract length that don’t have anything to do with expectations.

The second point is a good one. I’m less convinced that Monti is a guy who can match talent to system than I am of Gannon being a guy who can instill a culture and generally not be embarrassing.

Can he assemble a staff? Outlook not so good, although two months ago people were fearing openly that we’d lose both coordinators to head coaching jobs.

 

[Stout]

I'm ok with firing both this year if the decision is that this leadership isn't working out. Certainly next year.

I am not interested in keeping just one of them to try again with a different counterpart.

So not firing Gannon unless Monti goes? I can see that, as that would give Monti, who has for sure been sub-par, another three seasons minimum with a new head coach and a new QB. I'm not interested in that. Firing Monti and not Gannon would leave us with a bad lame duck. Yes, fire either or neither. I agree.

 

[phillycard]

I'm ok with firing both this year if the decision is that this leadership isn't working out. Certainly next year.

I am not interested in keeping just one of them to try again with a different counterpart.

All or nothing. Agreed 1000%