Obtainable Point Guards this off-season

[AzStevenCal]

I totally agree. That #6 pick could be the next Dragon Bender.

Sure just like you could go the free agent route and regrettably sign an over the hill Hedo or a Rashard Lewis - or just like you could trade for a Deron Williams or a Rick Robey. And while you can certainly strike out with a pick, you can also draft an Adrian Dantley or a Damian Lillard with the 6th pick - even Larry Bird went 6th although it's not really fair to include it since it was more the result of a drafting loophole than clever scouting.

 

[devilalum]

Sure just like you could go the free agent route and regrettably sign an over the hill Hedo or a Rashard Lewis - or just like you could trade for a Deron Williams or a Rick Robey. And while you can certainly strike out with a pick, you can also draft an Adrian Dantley or a Damian Lillard with the 6th pick - even Larry Bird went 6th although it's not really fair to include it since it was more the result of a drafting loophole than clever scouting.

Picks are far more risky than actual NBA players that have proved themselves actually playing PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL.

For the most part its like a game show. Do you want this briefcase that contains over a $1000 in cash or do you want the prize behind the curtain? It might be a new car but more often than not its a lifetime supply of sardines.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Picks are far more risky than actual NBA players that have proved themselves actually playing PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL.

For the most part its like a game show. Do you want this briefcase that contains over a $1000 in cash or do you want the prize behind the curtain? It might be a new car but more often than not its a lifetime supply of sardines.

I'm sure they are but there is a value to the 6th pick that isn't diminished by the risk of drafting poorly nor is it devalued all that much in a weak draft. Dinwiddie is a solid rotational player, almost starter level. The 6th pick, until it's used, has more value than that IMO and whether or not it should doesn't really enter the picture. Keep in mind part of it's value goes beyond what the pick does on the court. A middling free agent isn't going to excite the interest of fans or increase ticket sales but a number 6 pick can usually does.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'm sure they are but there is a value to the 6th pick that isn't diminished by the risk of drafting poorly nor is it devalued all that much in a weak draft. Dinwiddie is a solid rotational player, almost starter level. The 6th pick, until it's used, has more value than that IMO and whether or not it should doesn't really enter the picture. Keep in mind part of it's value goes beyond what the pick does on the court. A middling free agent isn't going to excite the interest of fans or increase ticket sales but a number 6 pick can usually does.

Also the draft provides players on a very reasonable contract for a number of years. With the price of free agents, it's a cheap way of restocking a team with talent.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Also the draft provides players on a very reasonable contract for a number of years. With the price of free agents, it's a cheap way of restocking a team with talent.

Good point.

 

[1Sun]

Also the draft provides players on a very reasonable contract for a number of years. With the price of free agents, it's a cheap way of restocking a team with talent.

And with Robert Sarver, we all know the preference...

 

[GatorAZ]

I have zero interest in a 32 year old Collison. I'd much rather have Dinwiddie, at least he can pretend to play defense. I'd re-sign Oubre and Holmes (depending on cost). I'd offer the 6 and the 32 to New Jersey for Dinwiddie plus the 17 and the 27 and if that didn't get it done I'd add a highly protected future pick (or substitute for the 32nd if they preferred). While player names are not carved in stone, I'd then use 17 and 27 on Nickeil Alexander-Walker and somebody like Nicolas Claxton or Luka Samanic.

Dinwiddie can’t pretend to play defense either FWIW. I mean people have said D’Lo/Booker would be a poor fit defensively...

DRtg-
Russell: 110
Dinwiddie: 113

DBPM-
Russell: -0.5
Dinwiddie: -2.1

Dinwiddie was pretty much their worst defensive player among main rotation players and wouldn’t help the Suns in that regard.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Dinwiddie can’t pretend to play defense either FWIW. I mean people have said D’Lo/Booker would be a poor fit defensively...

DRtg-
Russell: 110
Dinwiddie: 113

DBPM-
Russell: -0.5
Dinwiddie: -2.1

Dinwiddie was pretty much their worst defensive player among main rotation players and wouldn’t help the Suns in that regard.

Then I stand corrected. I haven't watched him often but he looked like a decent (not good, but not Collison bad) when I saw him.

 

[GatorAZ]

Then I stand corrected. I haven't watched him often but he looked like a decent (not good, but not Collison bad) when I saw him.

I haven’t seen his defense either just relying on numbers and what Nets fans say on reddit. Before the Crabbe deal I would’ve traded 6 for Dinwiddie/17 b/c I think we could’ve got back up into the lottery. I’ve seen Suns fans saying they’d do Dinwiddie for #6 straight up which is way too much considering his defense and lack of upside.

 

[1Sun]

I haven’t seen his defense either just relying on numbers and what Nets fans say on reddit. Before the Crabbe deal I would’ve traded 6 for Dinwiddie/17 b/c I think we could’ve got back up into the lottery. I’ve seen Suns fans saying they’d do Dinwiddie for #6 straight up which is way too much considering his defense and lack of upside.

I keep forgetting Atlanta got the #17 in the Crabbe deal, so the proposed 6 and 32 for 17, 27 and Dinwiddie deal can't happen, anyway.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I keep forgetting Atlanta got the #17 in the Crabbe deal, so the proposed 6 and 32 for 17, 27 and Dinwiddie deal can't happen, anyway.

Oh yeah, I forgot that too.

 

[devilalum]

Also the draft provides players on a very reasonable contract for a number of years. With the price of free agents, it's a cheap way of restocking a team with talent.

I'm pretty sure the Suns are willing to trade the #6 for the right player and they know it won't fetch an All Star. I would say a player of Dinwiddie's level is about right. We'll see.

Crappy draft picks are a burden as well. Just look at the problems Bender has caused. You have to give them minutes if you want them to develop. Seems like the Suns have been stuck in development mode for way too long. Suns don't need to restock with young players. They're already the youngest team in the league.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm pretty sure the Suns are willing to trade the #6 for the right player and they know it won't fetch an All Star. I would say a player of Dinwiddie's level is about right. We'll see.

Crappy draft picks are a burden as well. Just look at the problems Bender has caused. You have to give them minutes if you want them to develop. Seems like the Suns have been stuck in development mode for way too long. Suns don't need to restock with young players. They're already the youngest team in the league.

I think you're making more of this than need be. Sure, we gave Bender minutes he hadn't earned and young players do need some game time but most of those minutes were due to a lack of good options IMO. If we'd had quality players at the 4 and the 5, I don't think we would have seen very much of Bender (or Chriss).

We're also at odds on Dinwiddie and the 6th pick although I'm not sure whether it's due to a disagreement over his value or the value of that pick. Like you, I'd rather get a veteran than bring in another undeveloped rookie but I wouldn't want to spend the 6 on a player that will likely have us looking for his replacement from the moment we put him into the starting lineup. I'd spend that pick on a better than average starter but IMO that isn't Spencer. He's a better than average backup, almost a starter level player from what I've seen.

 

[Yuma01]

Reminder that the Suns can create enough cap space for D’Angelo Russell by simply stretching Tyler Johnson’s contract or trading both T.J. Warren and Josh Jackson. - John Gambadoro


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[devilalum]

I think you're making more of this than need be. Sure, we gave Bender minutes he hadn't earned and young players do need some game time but most of those minutes were due to a lack of good options IMO. If we'd had quality players at the 4 and the 5, I don't think we would have seen very much of Bender (or Chriss).

We're also at odds on Dinwiddie and the 6th pick although I'm not sure whether it's due to a disagreement over his value or the value of that pick. Like you, I'd rather get a veteran than bring in another undeveloped rookie but I wouldn't want to spend the 6 on a player that will likely have us looking for his replacement from the moment we put him into the starting lineup. I'd spend that pick on a better than average starter but IMO that isn't Spencer. He's a better than average backup, almost a starter level player from what I've seen.

Yeah, I don't know if Dinwiddie is the right player. I haven't watched him that much. I just think the #6 in this draft by itself is not all that valuable. A rookie PG starting for this team will be a sure ticket to a horrible record. Even if it was Morant they would suck bad this year.

 

[devilalum]

Reminder that the Suns can create enough cap space for D’Angelo Russell by simply stretching Tyler Johnson’s contract or trading both T.J. Warren and Josh Jackson. - John Gambadoro


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the Suns are actually presented with this opportunity and pass for financial reasons I will implode.

 

[AzStevenCal]

If the Suns are actually presented with this opportunity and pass for financial reasons I will implode.

I'd lean the other way. I'd accept it, reluctantly, if that turns out to be the only way to bring in a competent backcourt partner for Booker but in general I hate the idea of throwing away future cap space when we are far more likely to need it in the next few years as our players grow into their games.

I'm not in love with Russell's game and for this to happen we'd probably have to max him too and I'm not confident he's anywhere near that level. But I don't follow the Nets all that much and if we're sure Russell is the player we want for the long term, it's probably an okay move - to me though stretching someone like Tyler is like buying everything on credit instead of waiting until you are financially capable of paying for what you want. And this situation is made worse by the fact that you have to throw away a pretty fair role player that seemed to fit in well here.

 

[Finito]

I'd lean the other way. I'd accept it, reluctantly, if that turns out to be the only way to bring in a competent backcourt partner for Booker but in general I hate the idea of throwing away future cap space when we are far more likely to need it in the next few years as our players grow into their games.

I'm not in love with Russell's game and for this to happen we'd probably have to max him too and I'm not confident he's anywhere near that level. But I don't follow the Nets all that much and if we're sure Russell is the player we want for the long term, it's probably an okay move - to me though stretching someone like Tyler is like buying everything on credit instead of waiting until you are financially capable of paying for what you want. And this situation is made worse by the fact that you have to throw away a pretty fair role player that seemed to fit in well here.

We are the Phoenix suns no top tier free agent is coming here with that cap space your hoping to have.

Tyler Johnson is not good he’s a scrappy defensive player who offers nothing on offense.

Would you rather have Russell or Tyler Johnson and Josh Jackson cause that’s 25 million right there. Give me Russell everyday

 

[1Sun]

Yeah, I don't know if Dinwiddie is the right player. I haven't watched him that much. I just think the #6 in this draft by itself is not all that valuable. A rookie PG starting for this team will be a sure ticket to a horrible record. Even if it was Morant they would suck bad this year.

Which means that Booker will ask out by the end of it. You can see that he is sick of the team not improving.

 

[1Sun]

If the Suns are actually presented with this opportunity and pass for financial reasons I will implode.

Get ready to implode...

 

[devilalum]

We are the Phoenix suns no top tier free agent is coming here with that cap space your hoping to have.

Tyler Johnson is not good he’s a scrappy defensive player who offers nothing on offense.

Would you rather have Russell or Tyler Johnson and Josh Jackson cause that’s 25 million right there. Give me Russell everyday

Yep


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AzStevenCal]

We are the Phoenix suns no top tier free agent is coming here with that cap space your hoping to have.

Tyler Johnson is not good he’s a scrappy defensive player who offers nothing on offense.

Would you rather have Russell or Tyler Johnson and Josh Jackson cause that’s 25 million right there. Give me Russell everyday

I'm not trying to do anything special to create cap space, I'm just talking about not throwing away future cap space. And while I believe we'll be able to bring in top free agents if we start winning, even if we don't turn it around soon you still need cap space for the Randle type players that are available every season.

Your "would you rather have" scenario is irrelevant as Tyler is only getting that ridiculous money for 1 more season whereas you're talking about 4 years at the max for a somewhat better than average Russell (less than a star). I'm not sure he's even good enough to be the 3rd best player on a serious contender, you can't afford to pay that kind of player the max.

Jackson may well bust but I still believe there's a fair chance he'll be a much better player than Russell. And I never said Tyler Johnson was a good player, he's a slightly below average offensive player and a better than average defender. You need role players like him. He's grossly overpaid but he's still a decent player.

 

[1Sun]

Jackson may well bust but I still believe there's a fair chance he'll be a much better player than Russell, if he is provided halfway decent coaching and decides to grow up. And I never said Tyler Johnson was a good player, he's a very below average offensive player and an average defender. You need role players better than him. He's grossly overpaid and he's still a below average player, but at least he's not as bad as Okobo and Melton...for now.

FIFY.

 

[AzStevenCal]

FIFY.

Nah, you didn't fix anything, you just changed the message. The evidence (stats, PER etc.) says you are absolutely wrong about Tyler, your son's opinion notwithstanding. He has a PER just a little below that of a replacement player but his strength is defense and that isn't represented well by PER. He's grossly overpaid but why do you think Miami had to pay so much to keep him in the first place?

 

[1Sun]

Nah, you didn't fix anything, you just changed the message. The evidence (stats, PER etc.) says you are absolutely wrong about Tyler, your son's opinion notwithstanding. He has a PER just a little below that of a replacement player but his strength is defense and that isn't represented well by PER. He's grossly overpaid but why do you think Miami had to pay so much to keep him in the first place?

Because the Nets were dumb enough to offer him a ridiculous contract in one of the bloated cap years (when the Nets couldn't attract anyone in free agency), and the post-Lebron Heat were desperate to keep what was left of their roster together. And even then, that was coming off of a blip of a half season where Tyler raised his level of play (likely because he was in a contract year), only to see it plummet once he got paid. And his defense is grossly overrated. He isn't horrible the way some Suns defenders have been (most notably Knight and Warren), but he isn't anything special there, either (and in my opinion really isn't all that much better of a defender than even Devin Booker...just look at the numbers posted by players he is guarding).

Which means that Tyler's PER is pretty much dead on. He is a below average NBA player making star salary.