Isaiah Thomas To Suns

[Chaplin]

But what are you trying to build? If you're trying to build a little wood playhouse in your backyard, you can skimp on the foundation, maybe don't dig it as deep, use lower-quality materials, something like that. If you're trying to build a skyscraper, you have to get everything very solid from the start. You can't build the first two stories, realize that the foundation is inadequate, and then "fix" it; the only option is to start over. That's what most of this board realized a few years ago and has now forgotten. It drives me crazy.

If you don't have an opportunity now to get a star, you gather assets to use in the future, whether next week or next year, to get a star that previously wasn't available. We are following that plan to a tee. You don't think so?

It sounds like you think every move means we are permanently set with the team you see before you. That just isn't true, and I think you know it, but your cynical side is so strong that it just automatically thinks today's team is the final product.

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns can build a better version of SSOL... deeper, stronger, faster.

 

[elindholm]

If you don't have an opportunity now to get a star, you gather assets to use in the future, whether next week or next year, to get a star that previously wasn't available. We are following that plan to a tee. You don't think so?

No, I don't. We're starting to get a sense of what these "assets" are worth. Gortat was turned into Ennis. The Suns tried to move up in the draft and failed. It's very difficult to trade three dimes for a quarter in this league, but that's what you and others seem to be counting on.

It sounds like you think every move means we are permanently set with the team you see before you.

No, but every move that's been made has fit within a certain style, or culture, take your pick. You aren't going to trade away the entire roster at once. If and when a big trade comes, most of the players will still be there.

So then what happens?

a) Keep playing the same style/culture after the big trade? Just as hopeless as the style before the trade.
b) Change the style after the big trade? Then why not establish the desired style in the first place?

The Spurs went seven years between titles. Yes, they had Duncan the whole way, so that helped them stay the course. But more to the point, they got players consistent with their style, players who could be compatible with a championship-caliber team if the talent level should happen to get there again.

Meanwhile, the Suns are loading up on 50-and-fade marshmallow players. First of all, those players are never going to have great value in a trade, because savvy teams don't want them. And second of all, even if you wind up with enormous talent in that style, you're still going to struggle mightily in the playoffs, as we saw in the Nash era.

 

[elindholm]

The Suns can build a better version of SSOL... deeper, stronger, faster.

Right, exactly, that's the hope. But if you look at the talent level of the Nash teams, you'll see that the present ones have a long, long way to go. MVP Nash, All-NBA Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, MIP Diaw, All-Defense Bell, are you kidding me? And that's just to get to the level of the Nash teams!

 

[Cheesebeef]

What frustrates me most of all, though, is that many of the same people on this board who call the Nash era a failure for its zero Finals appearances are now getting all excited about a much inferior version of SSOL that is destined for a 50-and-fade ceiling. (You aren't in that category, since you support the Suns no matter what.)

How many times did we hear, "Dump Nash so the rebuild can begin"? And now here we are in this strange semi-rebuild, having not done all of the things that most people said were essential:

* The Suns did not bottom out (only one really bad season).
* They did not draft a franchise cornerstone (Alex Len, give me a break).
* They did not establish a culture of defense and accountability.

Seriously, go back to old threads. This is all most people talked about. "Do it the right way, for once!" And now, a small-ball team nearly makes the playoffs and it's all forgotten. What will be the next collective about-face, I wonder?

Who here has really flipped tho? The bottom outers like mojo, me, others still aren't sure what the hell we're doing. Hell, felt like most people wanted Nash to stay and continually ripped the bottom outers.

 

[Mainstreet]

Right, exactly, that's the hope. But if you look at the talent level of the Nash teams, you'll see that the present ones have a long, long way to go. MVP Nash, All-NBA Stoudemire, Joe Johnson, MIP Diaw, All-Defense Bell, are you kidding me? And that's just to get to the level of the Nash teams!

It all started with the hire of Jeff Hornacek or one of the reasons for the hire. Sarver wanted to return to the entertaining style of basketball that Cotton Fitzsimmons exhibited or more likely the glory days of Mike D'Antoni.

The difference is that Hornacek is willing to develop youth where DA was not. However, the defensive focus has yet to come.

I am one of the few that thought that SSOL could win it all if there was at least some defensive focus for a few minutes during crucial moments of the game and of course a willingness to develop young players.

 

[Covert Rain]

Thats fine. Maybe it has changed into college basketball. I don't think it means the Suns or any other team has to load up on combo guards, have a stretch 4 big as your feature frontcourt guy...and subscribe to this trend to be ultimately successful.

+1

It has not been successful if you define success by titles. If you define it by "is my team entertaining"....OK.

I don't care what they play as long as they get up and down the court and win.

The reality is the is an entertainment industry. Being entertaining is a sound strategy.

That might be the reality but the reality also is that the ultimate goal of any team in this league is a title. The Suns have had their fill of entertaining teams.

What frustrates me most of all, though, is that many of the same people on this board who call the Nash era a failure for its zero Finals appearances are now getting all excited about a much inferior version of SSOL that is destined for a 50-and-fade ceiling. (You aren't in that category, since you support the Suns no matter what.)

How many times did we hear, "Dump Nash so the rebuild can begin"? And now here we are in this strange semi-rebuild, having not done all of the things that most people said were essential:

* The Suns did not bottom out (only one really bad season).
* They did not draft a franchise cornerstone (Alex Len, give me a break).
* They did not establish a culture of defense and accountability.

Seriously, go back to old threads. This is all most people talked about. "Do it the right way, for once!" And now, a small-ball team nearly makes the playoffs and it's all forgotten. What will be the next collective about-face, I wonder?

BINGO!

Who here has really flipped tho? The bottom outers like mojo, me, others still aren't sure what the hell we're doing. Hell, felt like most people wanted Nash to stay and continually ripped the bottom outers.

This. My guess is they are loading up on assets but the entire three guards thing is a tad confusing unless like others are posting...the goal is to play small ball, sell some tickets...write off the season for entertainment.

I am still holding out hope this FO has something up their sleeve. If they just muddle through the season....Entertaining us fans....yet again.....and that was the goal?!? I am going to be extremely disappointed in the FO and Sarver. Let's see what they do and if they stay aggressive via trades. Heck I would just be more relieved to hear they are attempting even if their isn't a viable trade out there.

 

[Chaplin]

That might be the reality but the reality also is that the ultimate goal of any team in this league is a title.

No it's not. The ultimate goal of any team in this league is to make money.

 

[Covert Rain]

No it's not. The ultimate goal of any team in this league is to make money.

What team in this league is not more marketable, can sell more merchandise and stabilize their ticket base by winning titles? Teams know this. They also know they can't keep the most marketable talent unless they chase a title. So yes...winning a title is still the ultimate goal IMO even if the goal is to make money.

There are also players in this league who might be in it for the money for sure but we have seen tons of examples of players chasing rings. So when I say team I also mean the players.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It all started with the hire of Jeff Hornacek or one of the reasons for the hire. Sarver wanted to return to the entertaining style of basketball that Cotton Fitzsimmons exhibited or more likely the glory days of Mike D'Antoni.

The difference is that Hornacek is willing to develop youth where DA was not. However, the defensive focus has yet to come.

I am one of the few that thought that SSOL could win it all if there was at least some defensive focus for a few minutes during crucial moments of the game and of course a willingness to develop young players.

Hill talked about it during the game. Horny thinks that with the incredible athleticism in today's nba it is increasingly difficult to score in the half court set. He wants to get as many points in transition as possible. But he wants to do that by not being dependent upon a single player to move the ball up the court. That adds time to the break as a rebounder has to look for the pg to outlet. He was ALL his guards to have the ability to handle the ball and distribute on the break. It makes for faster transitions and does not tire out an individual player too much.

I think that is probably why there was talk about Archie developing pg skills last year. It was not because they wanted him to be THE pg, but rather that they wanted him to develop skills Horny believes every guard should have.

I like this philosophy as long as:
1. You still have a half court game and can score in the half court set.
2. You can rebound. Without consistent defensive rebounding, this cannot work.

 

[JCSunsfan]

No it's not. The ultimate goal of any team in this league is to make money.

Ah, that is the rub. It is why we have the salary cap etc. Without a cap, winning a title AND making money are opposite goals for most of the teams in the league.

 

[3rdside]

I am one of the few that thought that SSOL could win it all if there was at least some defensive focus for a few minutes during crucial moments of the game and of course a willingness to develop young players.

Count me as one of the few as well - bad luck counted against us big time with all the injuries, trades and suspensions, but what was d'Antoni thinking playing a 6.5 man rotation over 82 games plus playoffs...

 

[Chaplin]

What team in this league is not more marketable, can sell more merchandise and stabilize their ticket base by winning titles? Teams know this. They also know they can't keep the most marketable talent unless they chase a title. So yes...winning a title is still the ultimate goal IMO even if the goal is to make money.

There are also players in this league who might be in it for the money for sure but we have seen tons of examples of players chasing rings. So when I say team I also mean the players.

We can name several teams that are more marketable than the San Antonio Spurs. Look at the Knicks for chrissakes. One of the most marketable teams in the entire league--maybe 2nd to the Lakers, and they have stunk for years and continually go over the cap. Why? Because they make a ton of money.

Telling fans they are making moves to win a title is just lip service. Most teams make moves to put a product on the floor fans want to see.

 

[Covert Rain]

We can name several teams that are more marketable than the San Antonio Spurs. Look at the Knicks for chrissakes. One of the most marketable teams in the entire league--maybe 2nd to the Lakers, and they have stunk for years and continually go over the cap. Why? Because they make a ton of money.

Telling fans they are making moves to win a title is just lip service. Most teams make moves to put a product on the floor fans want to see.

There are always exceptions to the rule for big market teams. However, some teams like the Suns benefited hugely from having talent like Barkley and Nash and the "hope" of a title. The Suns ticket base would be sold out if we were winning titles. The arena was sold out and merchandise and ad revenue was at an all time high. That all comes with title contending teams and if your goal is to make money....that's where the money is at is all I am saying.

Do you really think the Suns base would be where it is without those runs? You should have seen all the Suns advertising in every product under the Sun in the valley. The Suns were making money hand over fist.

 

[Mainstreet]

Count me as one of the few as well - bad luck counted against us big time with all the injuries, trades and suspensions, but what was d'Antoni thinking playing a 6.5 man rotation over 82 games plus playoffs...

Yes, this was another flaw that DA had that Hornacek seemingly does not have. I think the addition of IT will allow Hornacek to give our PGs sufficient rest. In fairness to DA, he did not have quality PGs to give Nash the rest he needed.

What I wouldn't give for a reporter to ask Hornacek the difference between DA's system and his system.

 

[Chaplin]

There are always exceptions to the rule for big market teams. However, some teams like the Suns benefited hugely from having talent like Barkley and Nash and the "hope" of a title. The Suns ticket base would be sold out if we were winning titles. The arena was sold out and merchandise and ad revenue was at an all time high. That all comes with title contending teams and if your goal is to make money....that's where the money is at is all I am saying.

Do you really think the Suns base would be where it is without those runs? You should have seen all the Suns advertising in every product under the Sun in the valley. The Suns were making money hand over fist.

Well, sure, the signing of big names comes with the "hope" of a title. That's a bonus for the owners and the league, but not the primary reason they are signed.

I've been around awhile, so yes, I saw the advertising of the Suns in the valley in 93/94/95. You are proving my point--the Suns made a ton of money because they signed those big names. That was the whole point of signing them.

There are exceptions, of course. I don't think there is any doubt that JC at the time was jonesing for a title--he always was with the Suns. But the primary reason for big signings is to provide more revenue. Ironically, even though JC did want a title, he was actually one of the best at maximizing profit potential with the aforementioned under-the-table signings of Danny Manning et. al. to small deals with the promise of larger ones in later years. Underhanded, yes, but brilliant as far as the business and profit-making side of the team back then. I can't imagine how great the profits were in those years.

I agree that winning a title makes you more money--after all, you have more exposure and play more games. But the amount of money you make in the playoffs is a drop in the bucket compared to the money you make in the regular season--that's simply because there are so many months and games to do it in. Look at the Clippers (Sterling's problems notwithstanding)--a team that has made money for years, even in the bad years. Mainly because Sterling was a horrible miser and owner, but it still made money, and that was all he cared about. Trading for Chris Paul? That was done not to win the title, but to increase revenue. It has worked fabulously, but they aren't really that close to winning a title. I'm convinced without a doubt that Sterling has been completely satisfied with just making the playoffs for that little extra coin, but he could care less about winning the actual title.

 

[Chaz]

That might be the reality but the reality also is that the ultimate goal of any team in this league is a title. The Suns have had their fill of entertaining teams.

Of course it is. For the players and the front office this is a job. They want to be successful at their job and make their mark and ultimately win the championship.

I am not in total agreement with what Chap seems to be saying that teams just want to make money even at the expense of winning. Every team is trying to win but it is a difficult business and not everyone gets an A.
Ultimately you can make the most money by being successful. More games, more interest. Everyone loves a winner.

For me and I think for the average fan it just isn't ultimately that important. It is entertainment and of course we want our team to win and be the best but in the final analysis it is entertainment, a diversion, a distraction.

Basketball is a game and in the grand scheme it just isn't (and should not be) that important to people that do not make a living at it.

Now back to the Suns and the current regime. Coach wants the fastbreak style that Phoenix is known for and I agree. I would like the Suns to win a title their way and i think it is possible. It doesn't mean you have to be small or average 120 ppg.

As for the topic of this thread I think way too much is being made over how many guards we have and what the label for their position is. To win you need talented basketball players and everyone has a different approach. If you don't like the approach that is fine but it doesn't mean they aren't trying to win or trying to win a title.

 

[AsUdUdE]

Has he officially signed his deal yet?

Given how this offseason has gone I would LOVE it if we could heavily front load his contract... The cap is 63 million and the minimum is 56... Even with the Bledsoe signing we will probably be short of that 56 million next year...

How great would it be if we gave 15 million this year to Thomas to get us to the cap and then he had a cap hit of only 4 million the next three seasons....

Do you guys know if this is a plausible scenario?

 

[JCSunsfan]

Has he officially signed his deal yet?

Given how this offseason has gone I would LOVE it if we could heavily front load his contract... The cap is 63 million and the minimum is 56... Even with the Bledsoe signing we will probably be short of that 56 million next year...

How great would it be if we gave 15 million this year to Thomas to get us to the cap and then he had a cap hit of only 4 million the next three seasons....

Do you guys know if this is a plausible scenario?

Front loading contracts is allowable, but I am not sure what limits the CBA puts on it.

Say he gets a 4 year 40 million deal, but structures it, 15/8.5/8.5/8. Who is going to complain about payment in advance? It also then allows his deal to be very marketable and keeps free agency options open. It also makes it easier on the overall cap number to sign Goran.

 

[Covert Rain]

Well, sure, the signing of big names comes with the "hope" of a title. That's a bonus for the owners and the league, but not the primary reason they are signed.

I've been around awhile, so yes, I saw the advertising of the Suns in the valley in 93/94/95. You are proving my point--the Suns made a ton of money because they signed those big names. That was the whole point of signing them.

There are exceptions, of course. I don't think there is any doubt that JC at the time was jonesing for a title--he always was with the Suns. But the primary reason for big signings is to provide more revenue. Ironically, even though JC did want a title, he was actually one of the best at maximizing profit potential with the aforementioned under-the-table signings of Danny Manning et. al. to small deals with the promise of larger ones in later years. Underhanded, yes, but brilliant as far as the business and profit-making side of the team back then. I can't imagine how great the profits were in those years.

I agree that winning a title makes you more money--after all, you have more exposure and play more games. But the amount of money you make in the playoffs is a drop in the bucket compared to the money you make in the regular season--that's simply because there are so many months and games to do it in. Look at the Clippers (Sterling's problems notwithstanding)--a team that has made money for years, even in the bad years. Mainly because Sterling was a horrible miser and owner, but it still made money, and that was all he cared about. Trading for Chris Paul? That was done not to win the title, but to increase revenue. It has worked fabulously, but they aren't really that close to winning a title. I'm convinced without a doubt that Sterling has been completely satisfied with just making the playoffs for that little extra coin, but he could care less about winning the actual title.

I think this is a chicken before the egg argument. No owner signs a franchise player without the hope of increasing revenue AND winning a title. I would say an owner who signs a player for the sole purpose of profit is the exception not the rule.

Most franchise players won't sign up for a team not seriously chasing a title and the owners know that. Owners know winning a title maximizes their long term profit outlooks versus simply signing a big name player.

This is a business and it is about making money. However, to maximize profitability, there goal has to be a title to maximize those opportunities.

For me and I think for the average fan it just isn't ultimately that important.

I agree with much of what you posted but this point. I couldn't disagree with this more and to be honest you are the first person I can recall in a long time taking this stance at all. I would bet if you polled most Suns fans the end game is ultimately important. We all want the team to be successful but I don't know of anybody that would have the attitude, lets say 40 years from now, we are now 0-81 for titles.....but hey it's OK...we were entertained.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think this is a chicken before the egg argument. No owner signs a franchise player without the hope of increasing revenue AND winning a title. I would say an owner who signs a player for the sole purpose of profit is the exception not the rule.

Most franchise players won't sign up for a team not seriously chasing a title and the owners know that. Owners know winning a title maximizes their long term profit outlooks versus simply signing a big name player.

This is a business and it is about making money. However, to maximize profitability, there goal has to be a title to maximize those opportunities.

Owners own basketball teams because they like the game and they are very competitive. Otherwise they would just continue to make money in their primary business. I believe most owners want to win first, and not lose money while they do it. Their hope for profit is in the increase in the value of the team over time.

 

[Covert Rain]

Owners own basketball teams because they like the game and they are very competitive. Otherwise they would just continue to make money in their primary business. I believe most owners want to win first, and not lose money while they do it. Their hope for profit is in the increase in the value of the team over time.

That's a good point as well. I mean you have to be sort of be crazy to come into any kind of league if your sole purpose is to make money. I believe I have heard guys like Cuban and other owners say something to that effect over the years.

Many owners are in it for the competition and the prestige of owning a franchise. Some do because they have been around the game all their lives and want to be part of it. If they make money along the way that's icing on the cake.

 

[JCSunsfan]

That a good point as well. I mean you have to be sort of be crazy to come into any kind of league if your sole purpose is to make money. I believe I have heard guys like Cuban and other owners say something to that effect over the years.

Many owners are in it for the competition and the prestige of owning a franchise. Some do because they have been around the game all their lives and want to be part of it. If they make money along the way that's icing on the cake.

Yes. To them, its a toy, a hobby. But they are still business men and hate to lose money, even in their hobbies. Its just how they are wired. I remember Jay Leno saying that he has made more money in his car hobby than he has in an any other investment he has made.

 

[Chaz]

I agree with much of what you posted but this point. I couldn't disagree with this more and to be honest you are the first person I can recall in a long time taking this stance at all. I would bet if you polled most Suns fans the end game is ultimately important. We all want the team to be successful but I don't know of anybody that would have the attitude, lets say 40 years from now, we are now 0-81 for titles.....but hey it's OK...we were entertained.

I don't think my point came across very well and given that we are on a sports message board that is understandable.

Of course the end game is important in a basketball sense. I am saying that basketball is not that important in a state of the world and my life and my family sense.
When I say ultimately I mean that people dying around the world is important. Curing cancer is important. Peace and love and human existence is important. Compared to all that basketball games and championships not so much. Professional basketball is a construct to sell tickets and get people to watch advertising.

If the Suns go for 100 years and never win a title I will not regret all the basketball I watched and enjoyed one bit. Would I be happier with a Suns championship? Of course I would. I would be happy, not so much for myself, but for the people that put in the time and effort to make it happen and I would applaud their success. However, I plan to be happy no matter what the Suns do or don't do. I wont let the fate of any sports team control my long term happiness.

Maybe that just makes me a bad fanatic.

 

[Chaz]

That a good point as well. I mean you have to be sort of be crazy to come into any kind of league if your sole purpose is to make money. I believe I have heard guys like Cuban and other owners say something to that effect over the years.

Many owners are in it for the competition and the prestige of owning a franchise. Some do because they have been around the game all their lives and want to be part of it. If they make money along the way that's icing on the cake.

I agree with this.