Who do you want?

[Raindog]

The most maddening thing has been the idiotic philosophy that we need "veterans" to balance out the youth... completely moronic in my opinion. So we have wasted significant resources (money and playing time) the last few seasons on the likes of Knight, Chandler, Dudley, Ariza, Anderson. None of whom has made us better... and in fact, have probably made us worse... and all of whom have taken away (or are currently taking away) the opportunity to invest in developing younger players.

We should have just made a commitment years ago to stick with a youth movement, sink or swim... especially since we have sunk just as much with the veteran stiffs we HAVE brought in.

I don't know how long the Suns will continue with this folly, but IMO Okobo, Melton, JJ, Bridges, and yes, even Bender (as awful as he has been) should be getting premium playing time this year - not the likes of Anderson or Ariza or Chandler, as overpaid as each is. The future is the former and not the latter, so might as well start building on that. It's not like we will be costing ourselves wins by not playing the veterans 30 minutes a night.

 

[SirStefan32]

stick with a youth movement, sink or swim... especially since we have sunk just as much with the veteran stiffs we HAVE brought in.

I don't know how long the Suns will continue with this folly, but IMO Okobo, Melton, JJ, Bridges, and yes, even Bender (as awful as he has been) should be getting premium playing time this year - not the likes of Anderson or Ariza or Chandler, as overpaid as each is. The future is the former and not the latter, so might as well start building on that. It's not like we will be costing ourselves wins by not playing the veterans 30 minutes a night.

I don't think it's a bad philosophy to balance out the youth with experience. It's the execution of that philosophy that has been awful.

 

[Hoop Head]

Part of the problem with trying to balance our youth with experience is we've brought in players on the tail end of their careers. No one is really ready to play. Our youth is too young and our vets are too old. If we wanted to bring in vets we should have overpaid for those still in their prime years, not past them.

 

[95pro]

Part of the problem with trying to balance our youth with experience is we've brought in players on the tail end of their careers. No one is really ready to play. Our youth is too young and our vets are too old. If we wanted to bring in vets we should have overpaid for those still in their prime years, not past them.

Maybe this is what McD was trying to accomplish. Have the vets lead the young guys this season, vets go bye bye at end of season, bring in hardened young core coupled with newly signed big time FA next year.

And Sarver was in win now mode, fired the guy.

 

[elindholm]

I don't think it's a bad philosophy to balance out the youth with experience. It's the execution of that philosophy that has been awful.

The main thing that has been awful has been the performance of the players themselves, whether young or veteran. That can't be laid at the feet of roster imbalance.

 

[BC867]

How cool would it be if Okobo turned out to be the PGOTF and the Suns could turn their attention to fixing the power forward position and backup center.

That would be cool. I'm just being cautious about immediately inserting the rookie Okobo into the starting lineup to quarterback the offense vs. easing him in by putting him in the rotation as backup Point Guard, even he plays 24 minutes or more in the capacity.

For how long? That would depend on his progress. It would be cool if it is as fast as Ayton's, but it would be unfair to expect that and risk Okobo's apparent potential.

 

[Raindog]

I don't think it's a bad philosophy to balance out the youth with experience. It's the execution of that philosophy that has been awful.

I am not disagreeing...

That being said, the philosophy seems to have been to acquire and play veterans - ANY veterans, no matter how mediocre to bad they might be. And they seem to be determined to stick with that, do or die. All I am saying is at this point you really have nothing to lose by playing all the youth all the time. They can lose 60 games just as easily as a lineup peppered with garbage vets... and you actually get them valuable experience and growth. You are gaining absolutely nothing by playing Anderson, Ariza, etc. 30 to 35 minutes a game. Let them contribute their "veteran leadership" (such as it is) in practice or from the end of the bench.

 

[Mainstreet]

That would be cool. I'm just being cautious about immediately inserting the rookie Okobo into the starting lineup to quarterback the offense vs. easing him in by putting him in the rotation as backup Point Guard, even he plays 24 minutes or more in the capacity.

For how long? That would depend on his progress. It would be cool if it is as fast as Ayton's, but it would be unfair to expect that and risk Okobo's apparent potential.

I understand your concern but if Okobo earns the starting spot I'm for letting him have it. It has to be earned though.

I think Canaan is playing about as expected so I'm not ready to yank the starting job from him just yet. However, if the Suns do not trade for a veteran point guard at some point I think Okobo will surpass him. If that happens, Okobo should start.

 

[1Sun]

The most maddening thing has been the idiotic philosophy that we need "veterans" to balance out the youth... completely moronic in my opinion. So we have wasted significant resources (money and playing time) the last few seasons on the likes of Knight, Chandler, Dudley, Ariza, Anderson. None of whom has made us better... and in fact, have probably made us worse... and all of whom have taken away (or are currently taking away) the opportunity to invest in developing younger players.

We should have just made a commitment years ago to stick with a youth movement, sink or swim... especially since we have sunk just as much with the veteran stiffs we HAVE brought in.

I don't know how long the Suns will continue with this folly, but IMO Okobo, Melton, JJ, Bridges, and yes, even Bender (as awful as he has been) should be getting premium playing time this year - not the likes of Anderson or Ariza or Chandler, as overpaid as each is. The future is the former and not the latter, so might as well start building on that. It's not like we will be costing ourselves wins by not playing the veterans 30 minutes a night.

The problem isn't that we have brought in veterans. It's that we have brought in the wrong veterans, and as such the veterans have had a negative, rather than positive, influence on the youth. We need veterans who are willing and able to show our youngsters how to play effectively in the NBA, to hold them accountable and to teach them how to be professionals. The likes of Knight, Chandler, Dudley and Ariza have just collected paychecks and checked out. Anderson, in the meantime, just isn't good enough anymore to be an effective example of on-court effectiveness.

 

[1Sun]

The main thing that has been awful has been the performance of the players themselves, whether young or veteran. That can't be laid at the feet of roster imbalance.

Except for the fact that the team is entirely bereft of the most critical position, especially for an offense like that of Kokoskov. That particular imbalance is enough to kill a team. Just ask Mike D'Antoni how he would fare without a competent NBA point guard. (And at this point, D'Antoni appears to be the closest comparison I can find to Kokoskov's approach.)

 

[1Sun]

I am not disagreeing...

That being said, the philosophy seems to have been to acquire and play veterans - ANY veterans, no matter how mediocre to bad they might be. And they seem to be determined to stick with that, do or die. All I am saying is at this point you really have nothing to lose by playing all the youth all the time. They can lose 60 games just as easily as a lineup peppered with garbage vets... and you actually get them valuable experience and growth. You are gaining absolutely nothing by playing Anderson, Ariza, etc. 30 to 35 minutes a game. Let them contribute their "veteran leadership" (such as it is) in practice or from the end of the bench.

Or the youngsters could end up going the way of Len, Chriss and Bender, who were ruined by being thrown into the fire and being gifted minutes from the start.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Except for the fact that the team is entirely bereft of the most critical position, especially for an offense like that of Kokoskov. That particular imbalance is enough to kill a team. Just ask Mike D'Antoni how he would fare without a competent NBA point guard. (And at this point, D'Antoni appears to be the closest comparison I can find to Kokoskov's approach.)

In what way? I don't see that many similarities myself.

 

[Raindog]

Or the youngsters could end up going the way of Len, Chriss and Bender, who were ruined by being thrown into the fire and being gifted minutes from the start.

I don't agree they were ruined by getting playing time. If they were ruined at all, it was by not getting good coaching.

But really, the more likely truth is that they weren't all that great to begin with. And all the better to find that out sooner than wasting years waiting for development that is likely never to come.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't agree they were ruined by getting playing time. If they were ruined at all, it was by not getting good coaching.

But really, the more likely truth is that they weren't all that great to begin with. And all the better to find that out sooner than wasting years waiting for development that is likely never to come.

I was always on the side of "make them earn their minutes" until a few years ago. Then, there was a rush of former players making the TV rounds saying that the reason so many young players failed or failed to fully develop was lack of real playing time. They, to a person as far as I could tell, all felt that nothing was more important for a young guy than to get meaningful minutes on the court.

So, I find it difficult to believe that WE (the Suns) are to blame for Chriss, Len and Bender's failures. Unless, of course, you want to blame it on poor instruction as that seems like a real possibility. But all 3 of those players were disappointments even before they got to Phoenix so I certainly wouldn't throw all the blame on our coaching.

 

[1Sun]

In what way? I don't see that many similarities myself.

Pro-veteran/reluctant to play younger playera, emphasis on offense over defense, European style of system (and the background to go with it), emphasis on tempo and ball movement.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I was always on the side of "make them earn their minutes" until a few years ago. Then, there was a rush of former players making the TV rounds saying that the reason so many young players failed or failed to fully develop was lack of real playing time. They, to a person as far as I could tell, all felt that nothing was more important for a young guy than to get meaningful minutes on the court.

So, I find it difficult to believe that WE (the Suns) are to blame for Chriss, Len and Bender's failures. Unless, of course, you want to blame it on poor instruction as that seems like a real possibility. But all 3 of those players were disappointments even before they got to Phoenix so I certainly wouldn't throw all the blame on our coaching.

Yeah I never fully got the reasoning that letting them sit initially would help them. How did all these get this point? By playing. When they were young they got better by playing against kids older and bigger and more mature than them on the playground. They proceeded to get better playing with kids older and better than them in AAU. I can’t ever recall any player saying “I could’ve been great but they played me too soon.” I can understand if they just aren’t physically ready, but even then it becomes their responsibility to develop ways to play around their physical limitations.

 

[taz02]

They don't seem to be concerned with giving Ayton too much playing time and he has less experience than anyone on the team.

Our other young players will make mistakes for sure but if you are getting blown out with over the hill veterans, who will all be gone after this year anyway then why not put the young guys in and see what happens.

 

[BC867]

They don't seem to be concerned with giving Ayton too much playing time and he has less experience than anyone on the team.

Our other young players will make mistakes for sure but if you are getting blown out with over the hill veterans, who will all be gone after this year anyway then why not put the young guys in and see what happens.

(1) Ayton is in a category by himself on the Suns. To expect all rookies to be as ready as he is does them an injustice.

(2) I'll post it again, because the comments I see are generalizations. Any position on the floor other than Point Guard is responsible for his own performance. Moving a player from out of the rotation to starter is piling a lot on a young guy, but it will affect only him and that is bad enough.

The Point Guard is responsible for the success of the rest of his teammates as well as himself. That is the reason why I I feel it is essential that Elie Okobo be moved into the rotation, but COMING OFF THE BENCH INITIALLY. As desperate as the Suns are to have a quality Point Guard and reduce team turnovers, the expectations could be overwhelming. Let's not set Okobo up to fail!

 

[JCSunsfan]

(1) Ayton is in a category by himself on the Suns. To expect all rookies to be as ready as he is does them an injustice.

(2) I'll post it again, because the comments I see are generalizations. Any position on the floor other than Point Guard is responsible for his own performance. Moving a player from out of the rotation to starter is piling a lot on a young guy, but it will affect only him and that is bad enough.

The Point Guard is responsible for the success of the rest of his teammates as well as himself. That is the reason why I I feel it is essential that Elie Okobo be moved into the rotation, but COMING OFF THE BENCH INITIALLY. As desperate as the Suns are to have a quality Point Guard and reduce team turnovers, the expectations could be overwhelming. Let's not set Okobo up to fail!

Ok. Disagree here. While the point guard is the floor general, it is a team on the floor and the ball passes through all hands in any offense. The point guard can hog the ball but that is another matter. ANY player who thinks he is only responsible for himself is a detriment to the team.

 

[Errntknght]

What I want is for all the guys to play up to their talent level (a little allowance for rookies) so we have some idea of how good this team is and what direction to go.

I believe Igor needs to go for wins, with Sarver running the show and the GM who hired him gone, he's on shaky ground.

 

[taz02]

(1) Ayton is in a category by himself on the Suns. To expect all rookies to be as ready as he is does them an injustice.

(2) I'll post it again, because the comments I see are generalizations. Any position on the floor other than Point Guard is responsible for his own performance. Moving a player from out of the rotation to starter is piling a lot on a young guy, but it will affect only him and that is bad enough.

The Point Guard is responsible for the success of the rest of his teammates as well as himself. That is the reason why I I feel it is essential that Elie Okobo be moved into the rotation, but COMING OFF THE BENCH INITIALLY. As desperate as the Suns are to have a quality Point Guard and reduce team turnovers, the expectations could be overwhelming. Let's not set Okobo up to fail!

I guess I just don't get it this whole set up to fail thing. If we had a center that was better than Ayton I'd expect Ayton to play less. We clearly don't so he plays. If Anderson was playing well I'd expect Bridges to sit, but he isn't.

In short, play your best players, if they all suck play the young guys to get them the experience.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't agree they were ruined by getting playing time. If they were ruined at all, it was by not getting good coaching.

But really, the more likely truth is that they weren't all that great to begin with. And all the better to find that out sooner than wasting years waiting for development that is likely never to come.

The coaching will always be a question mark if Len and others succeed elsewhere.