Week 17 2022: Heroes and Goats

Chopper0080

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The thing that @DVontel and others should be worried about is if Kliff is doing enough to show that he can do the non-Kyler work to convince Michael that the Cards could save $5 million (or whatever) by seeing what he can do with a lower-variance QB and healthy roster.

Those weekly meetings with Michael are about selling the vision for the team and offense. He gets to do that every week! For an established coach that's a waste of time, because you want to be measured by your on-field success. But if you're hanging on to your job, you want every opportunity to explain your vision to the boss.

Also, I think Kyler (and his dad) would listen to another first-time head coach if he had a stronger background than Kliff did. I agree with a bunch of people who believe Kyler was stuck with a guy who has been pursuing him for 10 years. If the Cards brought in Mike McDaniel, will Kyler really not listen?
There are varying degrees of "not listening". I think Kyler takes in what Kliff says but has an "I know better" mentality when they disagree. That is where I believe the "wanting more freedom" comes from with Kyler. Kyler wants Kliff to let him do his thing which Kliff doesn't believe is best for the offense. When Kliff calls a screen and Kyler sees the defense is key'd to it, I think he runs it and says, "you told me to run the play". I see this continuing with a new coach if Kyler doesn't see the benefit or doesn't feel like the coach has the credibility.
 

Dayman

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Wow, this thread got derailed by the same tired Kyler talk even faster than I expected, considering he hasn't played in a month. It's a wonder why board engagement is so far down lately.

As for the actual game

Heroes

Conner - I still don't like his contract, and he is way too slow to take 90% of the carries, but the guy is still giving max effort in a lost season.

Watt - I would have bet a lot of money against JJ getting double digit sacks this year. Especially without any real edge rushers to take away some attention. The dude is having an unreal season considering all the circumstances.

Goats

Gardeck - I didn't know he was on the field until late in the third quarter. He doesn't even make hustle plays anymore. His extension seems even dumber now than it did before, which once seemed impossible.

Zaven - Watching him get blown up by Allgeier was rough. Running backs get the best of linebackers from time-to-time, but Zaven outweighs the guy by 40 lbs. He also doesn't have a sack or a forced fumble since mid-October. He is either playing out of position, or he just isn't very good. I hope it's option #1.
 
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kerouac9

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Wow, this thread got derailed by the same tired Kyler talk even faster than I expected, considering he hasn't played in a month. It's a wonder why board engagement is so far down lately.

As for the actual game

Heroes

Conner - I still don't like his contract, and he is way too slow to take 90% of the carries, but the guy is still giving max effort in a lost season.

Watt - I would have bet a lot of money against JJ getting double digit sacks this year. Especially without any real edge rushers to take away some attention. The dude is having an unreal season considering all the circumstances.

Goats

Gardeck - I didn't know he was on the field until late in the third quarter. He doesn't even make hustle plays anymore. His extension seems even dumber now than it did before, which once seemed impossible.

Zaven - Watching him get blown up by Allgeier was rough. Running backs get the best of linebackers from time-to-time, but Zaven outweighs the guy by 40 lbs. He also doesn't have a sack or a forced fumble since mid-October. He is either playing out of position, or he just isn't very good. I hope it's option #1.
Collins also rolled up on Simmons at the end of the first half. After breaking Buddha’s collarbone
 

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Wow, this thread got derailed by the same tired Kyler talk even faster than I expected, considering he hasn't played in a month. It's a wonder why board engagement is so far down lately.

As for the actual game

Heroes

Conner - I still don't like his contract, and he is way too slow to take 90% of the carries, but the guy is still giving max effort in a lost season.

Watt - I would have bet a lot of money against JJ getting double digit sacks this year. Especially without any real edge rushers to take away some attention. The dude is having an unreal season considering all the circumstances.

Goats

Gardeck - I didn't know he was on the field until late in the third quarter. He doesn't even make hustle plays anymore. His extension seems even dumber now than it did before, which once seemed impossible.

Zaven - Watching him get blown up by Allgeier was rough. Running backs get the best of linebackers from time-to-time, but Zaven outweighs the guy by 40 lbs. He also doesn't have a sack or a forced fumble since mid-October. He is either playing out of position, or he just isn't very good. I hope it's option #1.

How did Collins get blown up? He was pushed in the side by a guard which launched him past the gap he was trying to fill.
 

Russ Smith

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I have no idea. We largely have no clue about what he is like behind closed doors nor what he does and doesn't have control over. For example, we learned recently that he wanted to fire Kugler for some time but Mike wouldn't allow it. If that's true that's beyond the pale for me. The HC should have full control of his staff.

I've not said Kliff is great, but he's good enough. All HC's have some issues to one degree or another.

Here's the thing. This franchise rarely attracts the the best HC's and Kliff is better than most we have had. Before this season he's the 4th best HC in Cardinals post merger history based on win loss record and he started with one of the worst teams of all time. This team is far more likely to get a Wilks than a BA. That's proven through it's history. When we hired Wilks in 2018 Mike Munchack turned down a 2nd interview. He had his 1st and decided that was enough apparently. In 2019 Eric Beienemy turned down interviewing with us at all.

It looks like Payton might be interested but that seems like pure luck based on him wanting to go to a fair weather team and the Cards likely being the only job available that fits the bill, but if that doesn't come off it's far more likely were geting a Kafka or Ben Johnson if Kliff goes. Another inexperienced guy with no HC experience at all.

Kliff for sure has issues, but he's not as bad as some make out. He gets blamed for every loss and no credit for any wins.

Could we do better than Kliff? Absolutely. And if we can get a Payton type then go ahead. But we could also do a lot worse and I'd probably prefer to stick with Kliff than take a moonshot of Kafka or similar. But much depends on the Kyler relationship.

He's still only a young HC and at least I know he works hard and he's still learning.

The thing with Johnson, and I'm not saying we should fire Kliff and hire him, but you can't just say well he's never been a HC so he's not qualified. Kliff HAD been a HC, for years, and was so good at it that he'd just got demoted from HC to OC for USC when we hired him.

Johnson has been around good coaches his entire career and he's done well everywhere he's been. He helped Miami, he helped Detroit and this year he turned that offense into a great offense. And it wasn't without issues they had WR injuries, RB injuries, there were 6 teams in the NFL over 400 points this year, Detroit was one of them. They scored 108 more points this year than last year.

He's almost certain to be an NFL head coach next year, with the recent trend to hiring younger guys a 36 year old with his track record seems pretty likely to get a HC job.

Campbell credits him with the improvement in Goff, he credits him with being the guy who recognized last year Amon Ra was going to be good and integrating him into the offense faster than you normally do with a young guy.

I've watched 3 or 4 Lions games in chunks this year for fantasy reasons and they have guys open all over the field. They run the ball extremely well and are doing it with a QB who's not very mobile, imagine what he could do with a QB who can run so the defense often has 1 less defender in the run game?

I would be stunned if we went after him if we fired Kliff just not like Bidwill to go that route twice in a row, but I do think Johnson is going to get a job and he's probably going to wind up being pretty good.

If we're going to hire a first time coach a guy I'd really like to look at is DeMeco Ryans. Bosa came out this week and called him the best coach he's ever been around. Keep in mind Shanahan is the coach, and the prior DC is Salah who's doing a nice job with the Jets. for him to be that positive about Ryans tells you something
 
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kerouac9

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The thing with Johnson, and I'm not saying we should fire Kliff and hire him, but you can't just say well he's never been a HC so he's not qualified. Kliff HAD been a HC, for years, and was so good at it that he'd just got demoted from HC to OC for USC when we hired him.

Johnson has been around good coaches his entire career and he's done well everywhere he's been. He helped Miami, he helped Detroit and this year he turned that offense into a great offense. And it wasn't without issues they had WR injuries, RB injuries, there were 6 teams in the NFL over 400 points this year, Detroit was one of them. They scored 108 more points this year than last year.

He's almost certain to be an NFL head coach next year, with the recent trend to hiring younger guys a 36 year old with his track record seems pretty likely to get a HC job.

Campbell credits him with the improvement in Goff, he credits him with being the guy who recognized last year Amon Ra was going to be good and integrating him into the offense faster than you normally do with a young guy.

I've watched 3 or 4 Lions games in chunks this year for fantasy reasons and they have guys open all over the field. They run the ball extremely well and are doing it with a QB who's not very mobile, imagine what he could do with a QB who can run so the defense often has 1 less defender in the run game?

I would be stunned if we went after him if we fired Kliff just not like Bidwill to go that route twice in a row, but I do think Johnson is going to get a job and he's probably going to wind up being pretty good.

If we're going to hire a first time coach a guy I'd really like to look at is DeMeco Ryans. Bosa came out this week and called him the best coach he's ever been around. Keep in mind Shanahan is the coach, and the prior DC is Salah who's doing a nice job with the Jets. for him to be that positive about Ryans tells you something
Just so everyone's clear, you're talking about Ben Johnson, OC of the Detroit Lions. I think that idea has merit from a structural perspective, but my guess is that Michael is smooth-brained enough to decide what we really need is a motivational disciplinarian to lead this team, not another soft brainiac.

Ben Johnson is supported from above by a regular chatterbox in Dan Campbell (whom I wanted for Kliff's job back in the day!) and from below/the side in Duce Staley. Does he have the leadership chops to impress all the guys who are Very Concerned about Kliff's sideline demeanor?

What about Duce Staley? He's worked for a bunch of great guys, including Reid and Doug Pederson (YMMV on the latter), he's a Black offensive coach.
 

Russ Smith

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Just so everyone's clear, you're talking about Ben Johnson, OC of the Detroit Lions. I think that idea has merit from a structural perspective, but my guess is that Michael is smooth-brained enough to decide what we really need is a motivational disciplinarian to lead this team, not another soft brainiac.

Ben Johnson is supported from above by a regular chatterbox in Dan Campbell (whom I wanted for Kliff's job back in the day!) and from below/the side in Duce Staley. Does he have the leadership chops to impress all the guys who are Very Concerned about Kliff's sideline demeanor?

What about Duce Staley? He's worked for a bunch of great guys, including Reid and Doug Pederson (YMMV on the latter), he's a Black offensive coach.

I'm not really familiar with Staley as a coach. What impresses me about Johnson is you go back to last year and at some point in the season Campbell openly said Goff has to play better or we're going to move on. Goff still is not great but Johnson resurrected his career, his season this year assuming his last game is ok will be on a par with the best year of his career, year 3 with the Rams when he had 32 TD and 7 picks. For the Detroit Lions, a team that traded his only reliable TE at the trade deadline, that has Kalif Raymond as their #2 WR. That really impressed me.

I brought up Johnson early in the year when Detroit was racking up points but losing, after I said it NE shut them out and Dallas held them to 6 points so I thought OK maybe it was a fluke. Since then they've gone over 30 points 7 times, with Jared Goff at QB!

Ryans inherited a very good 49ers defense and IMO made it better, hard to say with injuries this year but I get the impression they're better than they were 2 years ago when Saleh was the DC. I sort of doubt he'd be interested in the Cards he probably can get better jobs but he'd be high on my list too.

Payton would be great but if the claims are true they want HIGH draft picks, plural for him. If he can "fix" Kyler Murray it's probably worth it, just tough to say.
 
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kerouac9

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I'm not really familiar with Staley as a coach. What impresses me about Johnson is you go back to last year and at some point in the season Campbell openly said Goff has to play better or we're going to move on. Goff still is not great but Johnson resurrected his career, his season this year assuming his last game is ok will be on a par with the best year of his career, year 3 with the Rams when he had 32 TD and 7 picks. For the Detroit Lions, a team that traded his only reliable TE at the trade deadline, that has Kalif Raymond as their #2 WR. That really impressed me.

I brought up Johnson early in the year when Detroit was racking up points but losing, after I said it NE shut them out and Dallas held them to 6 points so I thought OK maybe it was a fluke. Since then they've gone over 30 points 7 times, with Jared Goff at QB!

Ryans inherited a very good 49ers defense and IMO made it better, hard to say with injuries this year but I get the impression they're better than they were 2 years ago when Saleh was the DC. I sort of doubt he'd be interested in the Cards he probably can get better jobs but he'd be high on my list too.

Payton would be great but if the claims are true they want HIGH draft picks, plural for him. If he can "fix" Kyler Murray it's probably worth it, just tough to say.
Yeah. I just don't think it's a good idea right now to bring in a unit specialist again. I think Bidwill will shy away from it. I know that nerds love Ben Johnson for similar reasons that you state, but without a strong GM with a vision, I just don't know what Ben Johnson is going to bring to the table.

I think we need more of a CEO because we don't have a leader QB and we don't have any GM at all right now. Someone has to set and hold people to a standard. Ben Johnson hid from the Hard Knocks cameras this preseason.
 

Russ Smith

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Yeah. I just don't think it's a good idea right now to bring in a unit specialist again. I think Bidwill will shy away from it. I know that nerds love Ben Johnson for similar reasons that you state, but without a strong GM with a vision, I just don't know what Ben Johnson is going to bring to the table.

I think we need more of a CEO because we don't have a leader QB and we don't have any GM at all right now. Someone has to set and hold people to a standard. Ben Johnson hid from the Hard Knocks cameras this preseason.

And it may be that he works with Goff because Goff, like Liam Neeson, has a "particular set of skills" and Johnson is able to work with them. Kyler has more talent, but maybe not the right mindset to execute what Johnson wants? one of the things I've read is that their offense is very timing based, Johnson had success early with the inside power run game because most of the NFL was scheming to stop the outsize zone that Shanahan and McVay run so well, so the Lions doing the opposite worked. When teams started to scheme to stop that, he unleashed the timing passing game which Goff is really good at.

Who knows maybe he's one of those guys who can take a QB and scheme around him so with Kyler it would be something else, but it goes back to the first year of Kliff where he figured out his scheme wasn't working. he started playing multiple TE's, Kyler ran more and all of a sudden Kenyan Drake came in and looked great because Kyler occupied a defender and the OL was opening holes easily. This year that all went south we lost Chase, the OL fell apart, Kyler fell apart so even though we were, it seems, playing a fair bit of 2 TE, we weren't nearly as good at running the ball. Conner at 4.3 seems good, but Drake put up 5.2 his first partial year here and like Conner he was the short yardage RB, 8 TD's in 8 games.

But I suspect you are right the next coach will NOT be a specialist.
 
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