Week 15 2022: Heroes and Goats

Dayman

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You don’t think there’s a big difference between having major concussion issues & knee issues?
There absolutely is a difference. There was also a debate about how serious the concussion issue was for Phillips. Based on the remaining players on the board, the Cardinals roster and overall positional value, I thought he was worth the risk at that point in the draft. The Dolphins obviously agreed and took him two picks later.

Maybe Phillips' concussion issues creep back and he retires early, but his ceiling is extremely high, and he made an immediate impact. As for Zaven, I'm still not sure he is even playing the correct position.
 

Dback Jon

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There absolutely is a difference. There was also a debate about how serious the concussion issue was for Phillips. Based on the remaining players on the board, the Cardinals roster and overall positional value, I thought he was worth the risk at that point in the draft. The Dolphins obviously agreed and took him two picks later.

Maybe Phillips' concussion issues creep back and he retires early, but his ceiling is extremely high, and he made an immediate impact. As for Zaven, I'm still not sure he is even playing the correct position.
Sounds like a certain Hassan Reddick...
 

Dr. Jones

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I don't know why, but I watched every snap from this game live. It felt like coming home. This is the kind of Arizona Cardinals football longtime fans are used to: boring, low-quality, and meaningless. Team results are subordinate to individual success, and we start fighting over whether the best players on the roster deserve to stay, assuming that everyone else is replaceable (because they are) and less responsible for the outcome of the game (they are not).
This first paragraph is everything. Old timers what what!!!!
 

Chopper0080

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Oweh actually has been really bad. He was billed as a project, but it looks like he has regressed. Him & Phillips the only ones I’m not mad at we passed on at this very moment.
Even with Oweh's regression and Phillips risk, they both would be more valuable than Collins as he is currently being used.
 

DVontel

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Even with Oweh's regression and Phillips risk, they both would be more valuable than Collins as he is currently being used.
I don’t believe you have watched Oweh this year. He’s actually losing snaps to a team that needs pass-rush.
 

AZ Native

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Nah, Kliff made sure it would still be a 2 score game with that choice. He deserves a Hero for that, tbh.
Making the 2-point conversion would mean we could score again a go for 2 again for the win. Or, missing the 2 point conversion would mean we would lose and improve our draft position. Who knows?
 

Cardiac

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I'm so fed up with this team that this thread is about the only one I read. 50 + years of this crappy organization has finally beat me down.

I had the red zone after the Eagles victory (that's a fun team to watch) and only switched over to the Cards game when they appeared on the red zone which reminded me they were playing.

I enjoyed Watt and Buddha.....

I didn't watch the rest of the 4th Qtr. I'm not even excited for the draft which was my 3rd favorite holiday.

Merry Christmas everyone.
 

BritCard

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Zaven Collins - Tall Jordan Hicks had eight combined tackles and zero impact plays yesterday. You can find him getting pushed out of the hole or running past it on many plays. Here's a shocking stat: in 14 games this season, he has one more pass defensed than he did last season, when he barely played. Yowza.

I'm sure there was a play before I fell into a coma where Zaven diagnosed run and made a nice play past the guard to hit Murray just as he received the playaction handoff.

I'd have had Simmons here. I don't recall his name once. Don't recall even seeing him. But then I did turn off at the end of Q3.
 

BritCard

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Marquise "Hollywood" Brown - Hollywood brought in half his targets for a massive 4.8 yards per reception. He played mostly out of the slot in three-WR sets. Since his injury in Week 6 (and Nuk returning from suspension), he's boasting a 58% catch rate for 7.1 yards per reception and 0 TDs. Nice job!

I legit thought about extending Brown and even posted about it. Now, I am feeling like that first round pick is a sunk cost. I am not interested in paying Brandin Cooks 20 mil.

Before injury he was tracking for 1400 yards and 9 TDs. Since he came back he's played 1 game with Kyler in which he had a 75% catch rate but Kyler only threw for 191 yards. And two games with Colt and McSorley in one of which they only threw for 173 yards.

Hopkins has looked equally poor recently. He's led the team but hasn;t sniffed 100 yards.

It's not as if our offense has been lighting it up with 300 yard games. He can't throw to himself.
 
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kerouac9

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Before injury he was tracking for 1400 yards and 9 TDs. Since he came back he's played 1 game with Kyler in which he had a 75% catch rate but Kyler only threw for 191 yards. And two games with Colt and McSorley in one of which they only threw for 173 yards.

Hopkins has looked equally poor recently. He's led the team but hasn;t sniffed 100 yards.

It's not as if our offense has been lighting it up with 300 yard games. He can't throw to himself.
Yes. If he's the #1 receiving target on a bad passing offense competing for targets with the likes of The Ghost of A.J. Green and Greg Dortch, Marquise Brown can put up numbers good enough to get you to 2-4. All you have to do is give him 11 targets a game.

Until he gets injured.

He's not going to get that opportunity here for at least the next season; Nuk is going to get a ton of targets. In his secondary role, Brown has managed to catch 14 of 24 targets and averaged 40 yards per game with 0 TDs.
 

BritCard

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Yes. If he's the #1 receiving target on a bad passing offense competing for targets with the likes of The Ghost of A.J. Green and Greg Dortch, Marquise Brown can put up numbers good enough to get you to 2-4. All you have to do is give him 11 targets a game.

Until he gets injured.

He's not going to get that opportunity here for at least the next season; Nuk is going to get a ton of targets. In his secondary role, Brown has managed to catch 14 of 24 targets and averaged 40 yards per game with 0 TDs.

Targets thrown by backup QBs.

In the same games Hopkins catch rate has dropped to 63% from 76%. Backup QB's throw bad balls.

We regularly throw 40+ times a game. There are plenty of targets to go around. He's had 8 per game the last 3 games.

This offense has been shockingly bad all year. I can't tell what Brown will be because this offense simply has not given him the chance to show it. He's supposed to be a field stretching deep threat and I think he's had 2 catches over 20 (just) all year.

But I've seen enough in a bad offense to expect him to be very good in a good offense.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Targets thrown by backup QBs.

In the same games Hopkins catch rate has dropped to 63% from 76%. Backup QB's throw bad balls.

We regularly throw 40+ times a game. There are plenty of targets to go around. He's had 8 per game the last 3 games.

This offense has been shockingly bad all year. I can't tell what Brown will be because this offense simply has not given him the chance to show it. He's supposed to be a field stretching deep threat and I think he's had 2 catches over 20 (just) all year.

But I've seen enough in a bad offense to expect him to be very good in a good offense.
I thought mccoy was so much better than kyler. Your arguments change with blowing of the winds.
 

Chopper0080

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Before injury he was tracking for 1400 yards and 9 TDs. Since he came back he's played 1 game with Kyler in which he had a 75% catch rate but Kyler only threw for 191 yards. And two games with Colt and McSorley in one of which they only threw for 173 yards.

Hopkins has looked equally poor recently. He's led the team but hasn;t sniffed 100 yards.

It's not as if our offense has been lighting it up with 300 yard games. He can't throw to himself.
Brown is a liability in the run game, has been dinged up, and has made some huge drops. If I am not sold on my young QB and am considering going to more of an Alex Smith type, management and run the ball, scheme, I am not paying Brown more money than Kirk got.

A huge issue with the Cardinals over the years has been their best and most highly compensated players not making huge impacts in big games. Hopkins might be the only exception. Maybe Humphries and Budda. The rest all make stupid mistakes or become invisible when situations and stakes are highest. That needs to change.
 

BritCard

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Brown is a liability in the run game, has been dinged up, and has made some huge drops. If I am not sold on my young QB and am considering going to more of an Alex Smith type, management and run the ball, scheme, I am not paying Brown more money than Kirk got.

A huge issue with the Cardinals over the years has been their best and most highly compensated players not making huge impacts in big games. Hopkins might be the only exception. Maybe Humphries and Budda. The rest all make stupid mistakes or become invisible when situations and stakes are highest. That needs to change.

The run game that is always A or B gap power and rarely reaches the 2nd level? If Brown has had to seriously block 3 guys all season to stop Conner getting tackled I'll be amazed.

Brown is 100% going to get more money than Kirk got because it's going to be 2 years later.

Regarding big games when it matters he had 140 yards against Ramsey in game 3 vs the Rams in a important division game at 1-1.

Vs Philly when 2-2 he had 80 yards and a TD against 2 of the best CB's in the league.

That's pretty much the only games we have had you can call big games and that's a stretch.

Do people need Brown to suck so you can blame Keim for the trade? Had he stayed healtly he would almost certainly have had 1000+ yards in one of the most dire offenses in the league. Brown isn't an issue.
 

BritCard

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On 14 targets. Very explosive. We're not paying him Kirk money to be a tiny possession receiver. That wasn't the promise.

I mean, Kyler averaged 5.4 yards per pass. 10 yards is our deep ball...

Kyler's longest pass of the season is 38 yards. That is 52nd in the league.

Coly McCoy has a 47. He's behind Brett Rypien, Sah Ehlinger, Kyle Allen, Trey Lance, Jacob Eason, Malik Willis, Dvis Mills and in 53rd just behind him is CMC.

Brown probably has more chance of catching a deep ball he throws himself.
 

Chopper0080

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I mean, Kyler averaged 5.4 yards per pass. 10 yards is our deep ball...

Kyler's longest pass of the season is 38 yards. That is 52nd in the league.

Coly McCoy has a 47. He's behind Brett Rypien, Sah Ehlinger, Kyle Allen, Trey Lance, Jacob Eason, Malik Willis, Dvis Mills and in 53rd just behind him is CMC.

Brown probably has more chance of catching a deep ball he throws himself.
Ok...but facts are that Kyler is going to be his QB. So, why pay him if our QB can't use him to his fullest? If he has to have a high target volume to be productive why does it make sense to re-sign him when our next HC is likely going to have a smaller passing volume?

He just isn't going to be worth it.
 

BritCard

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Ok...but facts are that Kyler is going to be his QB. So, why pay him if our QB can't use him to his fullest? If he has to have a high target volume to be productive why does it make sense to re-sign him when our next HC is likely going to have a smaller passing volume?

He just isn't going to be worth it.

Because I don't think and of these things are true.

Kyler has been one of the best downfield passers through his first 3 years. Its the reason we brought him in. I don't know what's wrong with him but hopefully it's a blip.

He can easy have 8-10 targets a game as WR2. With a YPC of 13+.

All this is wasted energy. There won't be an extension until late next season at best when we will have much more info.
 

Chopper0080

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Because I don't think and of these things are true.

Kyler has been one of the best downfield passers through his first 3 years. Its the reason we brought him in. I don't know what's wrong with him but hopefully it's a blip.

He can easy have 8-10 targets a game as WR2. With a YPC of 13+.

All this is wasted energy. There won't be an extension until late next season at best when we will have much more info.
I thought you said you negotiated deals for a living?

What agent is going to have his client play out most of the year, risking injury, and then take a deal instead of testing the market where he is likely to have multiple suitors and get a higher price? If Brown isn't extended before the start of the season he will likely test free agency and then be signed by another team.
 

Chopper0080

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Jalen Waddle is averaging less than eight targets per game in Miami. Where are all the examples of #2 WRs getting 10+ targets per game?
We are top 5 in the NFL this year is pass attempts per game this year at 39.4 as a losing team. Last year we were 17th at 34.7 with a wining record. Both years we had a very pass heavy offense with multi WR sets. It could happen but the likelihood is minimal.

Yeah...I don't see it.
 

BritCard

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Jalen Waddle is averaging less than eight targets per game in Miami. Where are all the examples of #2 WRs getting 10+ targets per game?

He has 8 targets a game since he came back from injury playing alongside Nuk and in those games we passed 29, 40, and 36 times. That's a 23% target share.

We passed 591 times last year and 551 already this year with 3 games left. We likely hit 650.

Split the difference and say 620 with a 23% target share would give him 142 targets or 8.35 targets per game.

I didn't say 10. I said 8-10.

This is easily achievable. 30% to Nuk. 23% to Brown. 15% each to Rondale and Ertz. Leaves 17% for others.
 
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