The Ayton Plan

[Cheesebeef]

AD didn’t get off to a fast start and people were calling him a bust his rookie year. He ended the year averaging 13/8 and Dame won rookie of the year

Embiid didn’t play a game his first two years in the NBA

And Jokers 3rd season he got 18/10, Ayton got 18/11 his 2nd season

The argument big men take longer is real.

At the same age, 23, their collective averages were 23 ppg/11 rebounds/5 assists/2 blocks and making 2nd or 3rd Team ALL-NBA and All-Defensive Teams. Ayton's not even close.

 

[Cheesebeef]

They did not I just showed you what Joker did in his 3rd year and Embiid didn’t even play his first two years and only played 31 games his third year.

Yes AD did make the jump

so did Towns. And when Embiid did play, he immediately balled out at a much higher rate of play than Ayton ever has. Yes, he was injury prone, but he wasn't developmentally challenged as a big man. He was ready to roll the second he was healthy enough to step foot on court at the same age.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You could probably name me all the players who are “elite” on both ends of the floor in the NBA on one hand. The standard set for what people here want him to be is unrealistic.

You do realize this guy pretty much got like 19/11 his first two years with the Suns and just turned 23. We just watched him get 11 rebounds in 15 minutes in a pre season game and guys here were talking about 1 play where he didn’t box out. That’s what this has come to.

Stop talking like we drafted Micheal Bennet. This is getting to be a joke. The fact people are saying journeyman like McGee, Holmes and Allen can give us what he does is so beyond ridiculous it’s not even.

Is Ayton perfect hell no, but when guys like Chris Paul and Monty Williams say he works hard and wants to be coached hard at 23 with that talent. You nurture that. When he came into the league his reputation as a defender was laughed at, legit laughed at by Joel Embiid and look at what he’s turned himself into on that side of the floor, so what makes you think he couldn’t be better offensively in the years to come?

This stupid thread is going to go on all year honestly I’m over it. I don’t care if he stays or if he goes anymore.

I love when someone just makes stuff up (he averaged a shade under 17pts/game his first two years) or purposefully leave something significant out (like averaging 14pts/game last year - or 15pts/game for his career) to make an argument.

 

[Finito]

At the same age, 23, their collective averages were 23 ppg/11 rebounds/5 assists/2 blocks and making 2nd or 3rd Team ALL-NBA and All-Defensive Teams. Ayton's not even close.

You can do that but at the age of 23 how many years had those guys already been playing basketball. You have to remember Ayton was late to the sport.

That’s why I did 2nd and 3rd year in the NBA.

 

[Finito]

so did Towns. And when Embiid did play, he immediately balled out at a much higher rate of play than Ayton ever has. Yes, he was injury prone, but he wasn't developmentally challenged as a big man. He was ready to roll the second he was healthy enough to step foot on court at the same age.

You can say that but he also was in an NBA program practicing against NBA players and in an NBA weight room for those years he wasn’t playing

Fact are he played 31 games in his first 3 years and fans were def wondering if he was every going to be a reliable player in his third year.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You can do that but at the age of 23 how many years had those guys already been playing basketball. You have to remember Ayton was late to the sport.

That’s why I did 2nd and 3rd year in the NBA.

You act like he took up the sport in college or late in high school. After 8 years of playing high level high school top college program and pros that should no longer come into play. Or does he get to carry that excuse forever? I know he’s a 10 year vet, but he came to the sport late. Lol.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You can say that but he also was in an NBA program practicing against NBA players and in an NBA weight room for those years he wasn’t playing

Fact are he played 31 games in his first 3 years and fans were def wondering if he was every going to be a reliable player in his third year.

But they only wondered due to his injuries - beyond his control. Not due to his skills or heart.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You act like he took up the sport in college or late in high school. After 8 years of playing high level high school top college program and pros that should no longer come into play. Or does he get to carry that excuse forever? I know he’s a 10 year vet, but he came to the sport late. Lol.

him coming to the sport late is my favorite excuse. He's played basketball now for A DECADE.

 

[Finito]

Ya know I almost said you'd try and move the goalposts again at the end of my reply but I figured I'd give you the benefit of doubt but here we are.

Why even try to discussing anything if you automatically pivot when your claims are challenged or refuted?

Exactly why even have this conversation.

You wouldn’t even give him the max if he got 25/15 last year and that tells me you have an agenda. Like you said there is no point to this conversation

Cause 7 footers who get 25/15 get max contracts and hall of fame invites

 

[Finito]

But they only wondered due to his injuries - beyond his control. Not due to his skills or heart.

Oh his work ethic is always questioned. Steven A kills him all the time. Embiid has had some playoff flame outs

 

[Finito]

him coming to the sport late is my favorite excuse. He's played basketball now for A DECADE.

I never played basketball other than just for fun but in boxing I can definitely tell you the guys who start when there little are usually way more fundamentally sounds than the ones who pick it up later. Those guys tend to rely on athleticism

And that’s how I see Ayton he doesn’t have any post moves because he’s never been taught how to actually play basketball he’s always just been bigger stronger and faster than everybody else. I think he needs to add weight in his lower body and really put in time learning about positioning himself down low. He got a lot to learn as far as fundamentals go

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh his work ethic is always questioned. Steven A kills him all the time. Embiid has had some playoff flame outs

Well I think it’s okay for a legit mvp candidate to have some warts. Let me ask you, you ever see Ayton ascending to embiid’s numbers? To a legit mvp candidate?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I never played basketball other than just for fun but in boxing I can definitely tell you the guys who start when there little are usually way more fundamentally sounds than the ones who pick it up later. Those guys tend to rely on athleticism

And that’s how I see Ayton he doesn’t have any post moves because he’s never been taught how to actually play basketball he’s always just been bigger stronger and faster than everybody else. I think he needs to add weight in his lower body and really put in time learning about positioning himself down low. He got a lot to learn as far as fundamentals go

Man, I never played any level of organized basketball with a coach and didn’t really start playing even pickup basketball regularly until college and I was able to figure out good footwork, post moves how to seal a defender, and how to apply lower body strength against much bigger players I was defending. I’m a 5’10 (5’11 when talking to the ladies) white Jewish guy who possessed above average athleticism (but certainly not elite) who routinely played against guys 6’2, 6’3 and even 6’5 (I also guarded the 6’9 center from American University until he elbowed me in the eye and yelled “that’s what you get for reaching in!” as I laid facedown on the court with a pool of blood quickly forming underneath my head), and I never needed a coach to teach me how to be effective. I watched the game abd picked up techniques. To state that Ayton, the highest level athlete with access to the highest level coaching, just hasn’t been coached to maximize his ability is a cop out imo. Drawing fouls isn’t difficult for a big. And he is miserable at that too.

 

[Finito]

Man, I never played any level of organized basketball with a coach and didn’t really start playing even pickup basketball regularly until college and I was able to figure out good footwork, post moves how to seal a defender, and how to apply lower body strength against much bigger players I was defending. I’m a 5’10 (5’11 when talking to the ladies) white Jewish guy who possessed above average athleticism (but certainly not elite) who routinely played against guys 6’2, 6’3 and even 6’5 (I also guarded the 6’9 center from American University until he elbowed me in the eye and yelled “that’s what you get for reaching in!” as I laid facedown on the court with a pool of blood quickly forming underneath my head), and I never needed a coach to teach me how to be effective. I watched the game abd picked up techniques. To state that Ayton, the highest level athlete with access to the highest level coaching, just hasn’t been coached to maximize his ability is a cop out imo. Drawing fouls isn’t difficult for a big. And he is miserable at that too.

Do you think Amare was coaches to his maximum ability? I don’t. Once his athleticism went it was over

Coaching does matter especially when someone is young

I just watched Tyson Fury a fat guy who is completely relaxed in the ring with flawless technique almost kill Deontay Wilder a physical wonder with horrible technique. Ones been boxing since he was a baby and one picked it up in high school.

 

[Finito]

Well I think it’s okay for a legit mvp candidate to have some warts. Let me ask you, you ever see Ayton ascending to embiid’s numbers? To a legit mvp candidate?

No I see a really high level defender who can get you 15/20 a night and that’s pretty damn good

Maybe Makes a few all star teams

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Do you think Amare was coaches to his maximum ability? I don’t. Once his athleticism went it was over

Coaching does matter especially when someone is young

I just watched Tyson Fury a fat guy who is completely relaxed in the ring with flawless technique almost kill Deontay Wilder a physical wonder with horrible technique. Ones been boxing since he was a baby and one picked it up in high school.

Uh, no it wasn’t all over for amare when he started losing his athleticism. He still played for years after that.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

No I see a really high level defender who can get you 15/20 a night and that’s pretty damn good

Maybe Makes a few all star teams

That’s pretty good, yes. Makes a few all star teams likely. Is that how you describe a max contract guy?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Do you think Amare was coaches to his maximum ability? I don’t. Once his athleticism went it was over

Coaching does matter especially when someone is young

I just watched Tyson Fury a fat guy who is completely relaxed in the ring with flawless technique almost kill Deontay Wilder a physical wonder with horrible technique. Ones been boxing since he was a baby and one picked it up in high school.

And while coaching certainly helps, at a certain point complaining he hasn’t gotten it when he was at a premier high school program, univ of Arizona, and in the pros for THREE YEARS, yeah that argument sounds hilarious.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And while coaching certainly helps, at a certain point complaining he hasn’t gotten it when he was at a premier high school program, univ of Arizona, and in the pros for THREE YEARS, yeah that argument sounds hilarious.

Especially since the last two years he’s been under the tutelage of a HC who has a great track record with Big Men.

 

[Hoop Head]

Exactly why even have this conversation.

You wouldn’t even give him the max if he got 25/15 last year and that tells me you have an agenda. Like you said there is no point to this conversation

Cause 7 footers who get 25/15 get max contracts and hall of fame invites

But I never said though. You have an agenda of omitting pertinent information, cherry picking data, and rewording what other people say to fit false narratives you create yet won't actually defend when questioned. You consistently resort to snark or sarcasm.

 

[Finito]

Uh, no it wasn’t all over for amare when he started losing his athleticism. He still played for years after that.

Yes he played but not even close to the same level. Right?

 

[Finito]

That’s pretty good, yes. Makes a few all star teams likely. Is that how you describe a max contract guy?

Yes. Because it’s the market like it or not. Some of these guys that get max contracts have no business getting them

 

[Finito]

Especially since the last two years he’s been under the tutelage of a HC who has a great track record with Big Men.

And hasn’t he made strides?especially in the role Monty wants him to play.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes he played but not even close to the same level. Right?

No one could play close to the same level. He could only reach his previous level due to insane athleticism. But he acquired skills each year. He could drive, he could shoot. Neither were things he could do when he first came into the league.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Yes. Because it’s the market like it or not. Some of these guys that get max contracts have no business getting them

You said it, not me. The teams that avoid giving the max to those guys are better off for it usually.