The Ayton Plan

[AzStevenCal]

Needing a player and knowing other people will pay him the max for sure is a great reason to keep a player on your team!


You might be right. He could flame out. Or maybe people are freaking out after one regular season game against a team bent on revenge. If people want to say Ayton hasn't improved, I don't know what to tell you. Honestly, if he never improved beyond hot and cold regular season and playoff beast he'd be well worth it.

He's frustrating, probably the most frustrating player I've ever rooted for on the Suns, but his floor is so high that I'd bet on the talent.

Ayton is a solid defender most of the time, I'd pay him and want to keep him for that alone. But he isn't a lockdown defender, he's not a Gobert or even close to that. And without CP, I believe his limitations on offense will reduce his role to defender only.

You don't want to lose him but that kind of player shouldn't get a max. And even with the handful of good playoff games, Ayton wouldn't be in the conversation (IMO) for a max if he hadn't already been so high profile from being drafted first.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

At a minimum gimme 4 FT attempts per game this season. That’s not asking much.

 

[Finito]

Ayton is a solid defender most of the time, I'd pay him and want to keep him for that alone. But he isn't a lockdown defender, he's not a Gobert or even close to that. And without CP, I believe his limitations on offense will reduce his role to defender only.

You don't want to lose him but that kind of player shouldn't get a max. And even with the handful of good playoff games, Ayton wouldn't be in the conversation (IMO) for a max if he hadn't already been so high profile from being drafted first.

He’s actually an elite defender. Gobert can be played off the court we’ve seen it. Gobert can’t guard on the perimeter either.

Gobert is extremely overrated and it looks like league has figured him out. He had the exact opposite playoff run Ayton had

 

[Cheesebeef]

Except when it mattered most-MOST (the finals)

I’m not gonna hang that on him. 22 years old against arguably the best player on the planet with pretty much NOTHING behind him or around him size-wise.

 

[Covert Rain]

Two players do not a market make. A smart organization does not take cues from mistakes others make.

Just the number of players don't necessarily make a market either. It sometimes comes down to best available or best of the players left on the market. Then factor in how close a team is (if they think they are one player away) or how desperate a team is to improve the roster. So many factors. Anybody that thinks Ayton today wouldn't get a max from multiple teams is kidding themselves. Many NBA execs are echoing they think the Suns are dumb and screwed up. Now if he poops the bed this season? The offseason might be a different story.

 

[Hoop Head]

He’s actually an elite defender. Gobert can be played off the court we’ve seen it. Gobert can’t guard on the perimeter either.

Gobert is extremely overrated and it looks like league has figured him out. He had the exact opposite playoff run Ayton had

He can be elite when he chooses to apply himself but we've seen he rarely does. He's constantly needed coddling to get him to rise to the occasion and even then, he's prone to disappear.

Does he have the talent to be a generational big? Absolutely, no one questions that. To reach those heights he doesn't just need to produce more often than not but do so regularly without having to pull it out of him.

Ayton doesn't really have a middle ground. The only thing he does consistently is be inconsistent. There isn't a single player in the league who is considered elite on either end of the floor who is as much of a mixed bag as Ayton.

 

[Mainstreet]

He can be elite when he chooses to apply himself but we've seen he rarely does. He's constantly needed coddling to get him to rise to the occasion and even then, he's prone to disappear.

Does he have the talent to be a generational big? Absolutely, no one questions that. To reach those heights he doesn't just need to produce more often than not but do so regularly without having to pull it out of him.

Ayton doesn't really have a middle ground. The only thing he does consistently is be inconsistent. There isn't a single player in the league who is considered elite on either end of the floor who is as much of a mixed bag as Ayton.

Looking at the other side for a moment, part of this could be Ayton learning the game late and concentrating on the technical aspects of the game rather that reacting instinctively.

 

[Hoop Head]

Just the number of players don't necessarily make a market either. It sometimes comes down to best available or best of the players left on the market. Then factor in how close a team is (if they think they are one player away) or how desperate a team is to improve the roster. So many factors. Anybody that thinks Ayton today wouldn't get a max from multiple teams is kidding themselves. Many NBA execs are echoing they think the Suns are dumb and screwed up. Now if he poops the bed this season? The offseason might be a different story.

Just because a player is the best available option to fill a role doesn't mean theyre worth the maximum salary the league allows them to ask for. Mikal Bridges is the best available SF to pair with Booker on the wing, that doesn't mean the Suns should be forced to pay him the maximum he's eligible to receive.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Just because a player is the best available option to fill a role doesn't mean theyre worth the maximum salary the league allows them to ask for. Mikal Bridges is the best available SF to pair with Booker on the wing, that doesn't mean the Suns should be forced to pay him the maximum he's eligible to receive.

I don’t think Bridges is the best SF next to Booker. He’s still got no attack in his game or better handles and doesn’t make up any of the rebounding deficit that Booker also lacks at the SG spot.

 

[Finito]

He can be elite when he chooses to apply himself but we've seen he rarely does. He's constantly needed coddling to get him to rise to the occasion and even then, he's prone to disappear.

Does he have the talent to be a generational big? Absolutely, no one questions that. To reach those heights he doesn't just need to produce more often than not but do so regularly without having to pull it out of him.

Ayton doesn't really have a middle ground. The only thing he does consistently is be inconsistent. There isn't a single player in the league who is considered elite on either end of the floor who is as much of a mixed bag as Ayton.

You could probably name me all the players who are “elite” on both ends of the floor in the NBA on one hand. The standard set for what people here want him to be is unrealistic.

You do realize this guy pretty much got like 19/11 his first two years with the Suns and just turned 23. We just watched him get 11 rebounds in 15 minutes in a pre season game and guys here were talking about 1 play where he didn’t box out. That’s what this has come to.

Stop talking like we drafted Micheal Bennet. This is getting to be a joke. The fact people are saying journeyman like McGee, Holmes and Allen can give us what he does is so beyond ridiculous it’s not even.

Is Ayton perfect hell no, but when guys like Chris Paul and Monty Williams say he works hard and wants to be coached hard at 23 with that talent. You nurture that. When he came into the league his reputation as a defender was laughed at, legit laughed at by Joel Embiid and look at what he’s turned himself into on that side of the floor, so what makes you think he couldn’t be better offensively in the years to come?

This stupid thread is going to go on all year honestly I’m over it. I don’t care if he stays or if he goes anymore.

 

[Hoop Head]

I don’t think Bridges is the best SF next to Booker. He’s still got no attack in his game or better handles and doesn’t make up any of the rebounding deficit that Booker also lacks at the SG spot.

Is he the best in the league? No. Is he the best are capable of acquiring? I'd say yes. We don't have cap space to replace him and it's unlikely we could find a better SF willing to sign here in Free Agency. That's why I said he's the best available SF the Suns can pair with him.

 

[Finito]

Is he the best in the league? No. Is he the best are capable of acquiring? I'd say yes. We don't have cap space to replace him and it's unlikely we could find a better SF willing to sign here in Free Agency. That's why I said he's the best available SF the Suns can pair with him.

I don’t even think he’s better than Cam Johnson.

 

[Covert Rain]

Just because a player is the best available option to fill a role doesn't mean theyre worth the maximum salary the league allows them to ask for. Mikal Bridges is the best available SF to pair with Booker on the wing, that doesn't mean the Suns should be forced to pay him the maximum he's eligible to receive.

Who said that? Go back and read what I wrote. I said there are many factors but since you brought it up it definitely CAN mean that. Worth is subjective to a team's needs and competing teams can drive up the price. It's very similar to real estate. If you have competing offers sometimes it drives the price up. That's why there is a market to determine a players worth that isn't determined by one team's need or opinion. It's up to each individual team if that final price is something they are willing to pay for the likely production you will get in return.

 

[Muggz]

Just stop.
DA is not going anywhere.
Unless JJ/Monte and Saver have all lost their damn minds.
Even if they've lost faith in what he can be. He's still pretty damn good as is. (If he's worth the max or not, ill let the folks that do that **** for a living figure it out)
Trading him would be stupid. What would we get in return Embid? Jokic? Durant? OR Would we get bent over and end up with more efing shooting guards and draft picks that we would use on more efing shooting guards.?!

He's 23 a new dad and has a very ****** agent and a team that doesn't believe in him. Ima cut him some slack.
He may never be "worthy" of that #1 pick but one thing is for sure, by the end of this season we will have a better understanding of just what we drafted.

I'm behind DA as I've always been. I'm praying that that switch will get hit and The Dominatriks emerges.
If they really want too, CP3 and Monte will reel him in let him know that we do want and believe in him and this will all be a stupid memory by our 2 chip.

 

[Mainstreet]

Is he the best in the league? No. Is he the best are capable of acquiring? I'd say yes. We don't have cap space to replace him and it's unlikely we could find a better SF willing to sign here in Free Agency. That's why I said he's the best available SF the Suns can pair with him.

Now we have come down to the rule of supply and demand which often dictates the price.

This is why the Suns didn't want Bridges to hit restricted free agency as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This will be a fun conversation all season!!!!!

 

[Cheesebeef]

Just stop.
DA is not going anywhere.
Unless JJ/Monte and Saver have all lost their damn minds.
Even if they've lost faith in what he can be. He's still pretty damn good as is. (If he's worth the max or not, ill let the folks that do that **** for a living figure it out)
Trading him would be stupid. What would we get in return Embid? Jokic? Durant? OR Would we get bent over and end up with more efing shooting guards and draft picks that we would use on more efing shooting guards.?!

He's 23 a new dad and has a very ****** agent and a team that doesn't believe in him. Ima cut him some slack.
He may never be "worthy" of that #1 pick but one thing is for sure, by the end of this season we will have a better understanding of just what we drafted.

It just kinda blows that after THREE seasons with a number pick, we still don’t have a good understanding of what we drafted.

And spare me the “big guys develop slower”. The GREAT big guys were all complete and utter beasts by the time they were 23. And I’m not even talking the Shaqs or Hakeems of the old days. This generations’ great big Embiid (when on the court), AD, Towns were all destroyers and even Jokic was 20/11/7 at 23. And all of those guys were 19 when they entered the league just like Ayton.

 

[Covert Rain]

This will be a fun conversation all season!!!!!

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[Hoop Head]

You could probably name me all the players who are “elite” on both ends of the floor in the NBA on one hand. The standard set for what people here want him to be is unrealistic.

I thought we were talking about Ayton being an elite defender, why are reframing it now to elite two way players across the league? That's what I was referring to with my post.

You do realize this guy pretty much got like 19/11 his first two years with the Suns and just turned 23. We just watched him get 11 rebounds in 15 minutes in a pre season game and guys here were talking about 1 play where he didn’t box out. That’s what this has come to.

19/11 when we stunk and were devoid of NBA talent around him. Has he improved since then? Yes, but building around his offensive talent doesn't work for a team that wants to win.

Who cares what he did in a preseason game? Those games don't matter and I can find more impressive stats from far lesser players in one outing.

Stop talking like we drafted Micheal Bennet. This is getting to be a joke. The fact people are saying journeyman like McGee, Holmes and Allen can give us what he does is so beyond ridiculous it’s not even

No one is claiming he's a bust. It is disappointing that there are better players who were selected after him. It's not unreasonable to hope or expect you got the better player in the draft class at #1.

Those journeyman do produce similar numbers to him for a fraction of the price. It is totally fair to ask if $30+ million can be spent more efficiently than on what Ayton produces alone. If he were truly elite then that wouldn't be a debate. You're the one claiming he's elite. No one questions whether Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, or Anthony Davis are elite and deserve to be paid like they are.

Is Ayton perfect hell no, but when guys like Chris Paul and Monty Williams say he works hard and wants to be coached hard at 23 with that talent. You nurture that. When he came into the league his reputation as a defender was laughed at, legit laughed at by Joel Embiid and look at what he’s turned himself into on that side of the floor, so what makes you think he couldn’t be better offensively in the years to come?

You nurture that, you dangle a carrot but you don't give it to him simply because he tries hard. He has to earn a top salary and elite status. No one doubts his talent or ability, it's drive. Ben Simmons is talented, a lot of good that does Philadelphia. Sure Ayton tries hard but if he doesn't realize his potential then he's not worth top dollar simply because he's talented and will show it when he feels motivated.

 

[Muggz]

It just kinda blows that after THREE seasons with a number pick, we still don’t have a good understanding of what we drafted.

And spare me the “big guys develop slower”. The GREAT big guys were all complete and utter beasts by the time they were 23. And I’m not even talking the Shaqs or Hakeems of the old days. This generations’ great big Embiid (when on the court), AD, Towns were all destroyers and even Jokic was 20/11/7 at 23. And all of those guys were 19 when they entered the league just like Ayton.

True but to be fair all those old school centers grew up with basketballs in their hands. Ayton's on pace just a bit behind. The biggest problem I see is heart and sadly ya cant train that.

 

[Finito]

It just kinda blows that after THREE seasons with a number pick, we still don’t have a good understanding of what we drafted.

And spare me the “big guys develop slower”. The GREAT big guys were all complete and utter beasts by the time they were 23. And I’m not even talking the Shaqs or Hakeems of the old days. This generations’ great big Embiid (when on the court), AD, Towns were all destroyers and even Jokic was 20/11/7 at 23. And all of those guys were 19 when they entered the league just like Ayton.

AD didn’t get off to a fast start and people were calling him a bust his rookie year. He ended the year averaging 13/8 and Dame won rookie of the year

Embiid didn’t play a game his first two years in the NBA

And Jokers 3rd season he got 18/10, Ayton got 18/11 his 2nd season

The argument big men take longer is real.

 

[Finito]

I thought we were talking about Ayton being an elite defender, why are reframing it now to elite two way players across the league? That's what I was referring to with my post.



19/11 when we stunk and were devoid of NBA talent around him. Has he improved since then? Yes, but building around his offensive talent doesn't work for a team that wants to win.

Who cares what he did in a preseason game? Those games don't matter and I can find more impressive stats from far lesser players in one outing.



No one is claiming he's a bust. It is disappointing that there are better players who were selected after him. It's not unreasonable to hope or expect you got the better player in the draft class at #1.

Those journeyman do produce similar numbers to him for a fraction of the price. It is totally fair to ask if $30+ million can be spent more efficiently than on what Ayton produces alone. If he were truly elite then that wouldn't be a debate. You're the one claiming he's elite. No one questions whether Embiid, Jokic, Giannis, or Anthony Davis are elite and deserve to be paid like they are.



You nurture that, you dangle a carrot but you don't give it to him simply because he tries hard. He has to earn a top salary and elite status. No one doubts his talent or ability, it's drive. Ben Simmons is talented, a lot of good that does Philadelphia. Sure Ayton tries hard but if he doesn't realize his potential then he's not worth top dollar simply because he's talented and will show it when he feels motivated.

We’re you the guy who said if he averaged 25/15 you still wouldn’t give him the max?

 

[Hoop Head]

We’re you the guy who said if he averaged 25/15 you still wouldn’t give him the max?

Ya know I almost said you'd try and move the goalposts again at the end of my reply but I figured I'd give you the benefit of doubt but here we are.

Why even try to discussing anything if you automatically pivot when your claims are challenged or refuted?

 

[GatorAZ]

AD didn’t get off to a fast start and people were calling him a bust his rookie year. He ended the year averaging 13/8 and Dame won rookie of the year

Embiid didn’t play a game his first two years in the NBA

And Jokers 3rd season he got 18/10, Ayton got 18/11 his 2nd season

The argument big men take longer is real.

Those guys made huge leaps into all-nba territory by their 3rd/4th years. Ayton is more of a super role player that’s better defensively than we thought he’d be. All those guys are/were the best players on playoff teams.

 

[Finito]

Those guys made huge leaps into all-nba territory by their 3rd/4th years. Ayton is more of a super role player that’s better defensively than we thought he’d be. All those guys are/were the best players on playoff teams.

They did not I just showed you what Joker did in his 3rd year and Embiid didn’t even play his first two years and only played 31 games his third year.

Yes AD did make the jump