Sports Accounting

azirish

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When talking about "making money" in discussing sports team, it is very important to keep several related concepts straight.

Accounting Profit
Economic Profit
Cash Flow
Adjsted Cash Flow

Accounting Profit: Accounting profit is what is reported according to generally accepted accounting principles. This number involves things write-offs of intangibles such as depreciation, goodwill, ietc. and does not include unrealized capital gains.

Sports accounting is very complicated because of the way player contracts are valued for both tax purposes and reporting purposes. Ordinarily, the only things that can be written off are physical assets. But when buying a sports team, the player contracts at the time of the purchase are considered assets that can be written off against taxes. Since sports teams are generally organized as partnerships. This means that accounting losses can be used to offset profits from other sources.

Economic Profit is the total increase in shareholder value net of all dividends and capital infusions. It includes all the values received including unrealized capital gains (the team is worth more but not sold), the tax benefits of accounting loses, and all other benefits transferred to the owners.

Cash Flow is all the cash received after all cash payments including interest. It is the actual cash received and the actual cash paid out. A team can show major accounting loses while having large economic profits while cash flow could net zero. It takes cash to pay bills, so high economic profit does not help if the team has to borrow money to pay bills.

Adjusted Cash Flow is relevant when depreciation is involved. In theory, depreciaiton is what is needed to replenish physical assets, so adjusting cash flow for depreciation but not other intangibles is useful to get an idea of what is sustainable.

Questions about whether the Suns are "making money" or not cannot be answered with determining which definition of "making money" is being used. Due to the increase in value of major sports teams, it is quite likely the Suns are experiencing economic profits but may not be doing so well generating positive adjusted cash flow.

Teams that do no produce positive adjusted cash flow end up having to borrow or dilute equity by selling pieces as a way to keep going. If they cannot, then their only option is to sell to somebody with adequate outside income that can use the tax losses. As a rule, ownership groups do not want to be forced to sell out.

However, owners are likely to cry "we're losing money" when all they are referring to is accounting losses. But cash flow is a better measure, but it can also be distorted by selling players or other assets for cash. This is a process that in accounting terms is considered an "extraordinary" gain and reported differently.

[NOTE: My undergraduate degree was in economics and my MBA was in finance and accounting.]
 
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Brianellsworth

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bump.....this is a great and important thread that we need to all keep in mind......
 

Mainstreet

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I used to like sports because I could get away from all this. Fans shouldn't have to be accountants to enjoy the game. However, more and more it seems like this is a prerequisite to be a knowledgeable fan... and the franchises expect the fans to understand. I really don't want to believe the chances of the Suns winning a Championship is in the hands of an accountant. Certainly it may ultimately be true, but I would like to think the Suns have an owner and GM that every once in awhile will look beyond the point of a pen.

:thumbdown
 

Chaplin

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I used to like sports because I could get away from all this. Fans shouldn't have to be accountants to enjoy the game. However, more and more it seems like this is a prerequisite to be a knowledgeable fan... and the franchises expect the fans to understand. I really don't want to believe the chances of the Suns winning a Championship is in the hands of an accountant. Certainly it may ultimately be true, but I would like to think the Suns have an owner and GM that every once in awhile will look beyond the point of a pen.

:thumbdown
Except for the fact that every owner is like that. Not even Cuban is throwing money around indiscriminately anymore.

You're right, fans shouldn't have to be accountants, but it's not like the team is holding a gun to your head. We still have some good players on the team, it's your choice whether to enjoy them or complain about the finances. Nobody is forcing you to "become an accountant". And to say you're being forced to is ridiculous.
 

Mainstreet

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Except for the fact that every owner is like that. Not even Cuban is throwing money around indiscriminately anymore.

You're right, fans shouldn't have to be accountants, but it's not like the team is holding a gun to your head. We still have some good players on the team, it's your choice whether to enjoy them or complain about the finances. Nobody is forcing you to "become an accountant". And to say you're being forced to is ridiculous.

Bored today Chaplin?
 

Mainstreet

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Because I would have to be an accountant?
 

Cheesebeef

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Because I would have to be an accountant?

careful Mainstreet, if you have an opinion contrary to Chap's, you might end up being disparaged permanently in his signature.

Seriously, Chap, got a persecution complex much? Get over yourself.
 

Chaplin

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careful Mainstreet, if you have an opinion contrary to Chap's, you might end up being disparaged permanently in his signature.

Seriously, Chap, got a persecution complex much? Get over yourself.

Gee, you disagree with a post, AND get a personal attack in. Good job! :thumbup:
 

Covert Rain

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What is the point of this thread? To define accounting terms? This thread in no way clarifies if the Suns are in fact in good fiscal shape. This thread in no way clarifies if the Suns are in fact doing well enough to pay a luxury tax or not. This just muddies the waters and the facts are that people can still make an argument either way. I seriously doubt most people on this board are making their arguments with one specific term in mind or will do so going forward.
 

Mainstreet

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But the Suns are "forcing you" to be one, right?

No. However, one has to have some knowledge of finance to understand sports today or at least talk about it intelligently.
 

Mainstreet

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What is the point of this thread? To define accounting terms? This thread in no way clarifies if the Suns are in fact in good fiscal shape. This thread in no way clarifies if the Suns are in fact doing well enough to pay a luxury tax or not. This just muddies the waters and the facts are that people can still make an argument either way. I seriously doubt most people on this board are making their arguments with one specific term in mind or will do so going forward.

Excellent point.
 

Chris_Sanders

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The point of this thread is an attempt to defend Sarver and his twists of the facts.
 
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azirish

azirish

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The point of this thread is an attempt to defend Sarver and his twists of the facts.

Actually it isn't. I know that's your interpretation, but as I keep saying I don't know what their finances are like. I just want to make sure I know what people are talking about.

If you say the Suns MADE $74 million in the last two years, I wanted you to define your terms. When you didn't, then I gave a very very rough definition of the terms that are common in economics and finance.

It would be easier if reporters knew something about this stuff and would ask the right questions. They don't.

My suspicion is that Sarver is focused on cash flow and not on the increased value of the Suns. That does not mean that he lacks the cash flow to carry more LT than he seems willing to do. Nor that he should not consider the investment of value of the Suns if they win the championship. In accusing Sarver of twisting the facts, it is important make sure we are talking about the same facts.

You can make a good case that keeping KT was "worth it". It is quite feasible that they have the cash to afford him. But it would help to define the terms being used to make that case.
 
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Covert Rain

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Actually it isn't. I know that's your interpretation, but as I keep saying I don't know what their finances are like. I just want to make sure I know what people are talking about.

If you say the Suns MADE $74 million in the last two years, I wanted you to define your terms. When you didn't, then I gave a very very rough definition of the terms that are common in economics and finance.

It would be easier if reporters knew something about this stuff and would ask the right questions. They don't.

My suspicion is that Sarver is focused on cash flow and not on the increased value of the Suns. That does not mean that he lacks the cash flow to carry more LT than he seems willing to do. Nor that he should not consider the investment of value of the Suns if they win the championship. In accusing Sarver of twisting the facts, it is important make sure we are talking about the same facts.

You can make a good case that keeping KT was "worth it". It is quite feasible that they have the cash to afford him. But it would help to define the terms being used to make that case.

How can anybody know exactly what they are talking about when nobody knows the exact facts? It doesn't do any good to categorize peoples opinion or define terms when nobody knows the internal workings of the Suns finances. Who exactly does that help other then you?

This is a forum and not a fact finding mission. People express their opinion based on what they hear and read. So how can people be talking about the same facts exactly? Defining terms and trying to pigeon hole people into categorizing their idea into your terms doesn't clarify or determine any facts whatsoever.

It comes down to 2 simple ideals. Either you believe that Sarver can afford to pay the Luxury tax and chooses not to or you believe that Sarver truly can't afford to. That's it.

K.I.S.S.
 

Gaddabout

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Unless the Suns opened their books -- and no pro sports franchise really does -- the best we can do is guess with the information that's available. Every now and then a publication like Forbes gets access to certain NBA financial stuff, but I think it's safe to say they don't really know the bottom line much better than we do.

The Suns reveal whatever financial information that's in their best interests. If you believe Scott Bordow, after everything was accounted for, the Suns netted $14 million last year. I believe that was accounting for everything, which some numbers don't. Some numbers just add TV revenue with ticket revenue and concessions revenue, then subtract the player payroll. The bigger number is all of that plus ad streams and merchandising, minus the organizational payroll, travel expenses, hardware expenses (computers, software, licensing, etc.) and marketing expenses. That's the number the owners look at, because that determines how much money they're sharing at the end of the year. I think that's the number Bordow's talking about.

From an organizational standpoint, they really only one they show us the smaller number because that's the one they use to explain their moves. Plus, they assume we don't care that they spent two million on outdoor advertising and have a $1.3 million payroll for front office staff.
 

elindholm

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Isn't there this thing called a "loan" that you can use to get more cash when the value of your investment has appreciated?
 

Gaddabout

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Isn't there this thing called a "loan" that you can use to get more cash when the value of your investment has appreciated?

There's also rent to own. Maybe Sarver should call Rent A Center?
 

Cheesebeef

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There's also rent to own. Maybe Sarver should call Rent A Center?

at first I thought that was a bad joke, but after a second's thought... really it's pretty clever. good work Gad.
 

Gaddabout

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at first I thought that was a bad joke, but after a second's thought... really it's pretty clever. good work Gad.

To paraphrase a George S. Kaufman, my writing is "full of single entundre." Every now and then I stumble across a fair pun but I'm no Kaufman.

George S. Kaufman said:
Guido Nazzo is Nazzo Guido.
 

Errntknght

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Actually, I thought this thread was a bit informative. I have always thought of the LT as evil and thought any sensible owner would avoid it like the plague. Heck, we're always poking fun at Dolan and the Knicks because they pay so much luxury tax. I don't if the Knicks make money or not but for all I know they might be supplying Dolan with a nice profit margin - so the joke could be on us.

As far as Sarver is concerned, talking about avoiding the LT is really deflecting questions away from the real issue - which is how much money is the team making or losing. The LT is just another business expense, not something that one is 'morally' obligated to avoid.

I do agree that one needs to keep 'unrealized asset appreciation' separate from cash flow but that doesn't mean it should be unvalued. I'm not up on taxation but there certainly was a time that many businessmen strove to operate at a loss in order to wind up with a large capital gain, which might not be realized for years. And they loved accountants who could make it appear that way even if it wasn't entirely true.
 

Gaddabout

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Actually, I thought this thread was a bit informative. I have always thought of the LT as evil and thought any sensible owner would avoid it like the plague. Heck, we're always poking fun at Dolan and the Knicks because they pay so much luxury tax. I don't if the Knicks make money or not but for all I know they might be supplying Dolan with a nice profit margin - so the joke could be on us.

Since Dolan is the CEO of the entity that owns the Knicks (MSG/Cablevision), he gets paid salary + bonuses no matter what happens. Last I saw he made something like $10 million in one year. He's not like Paul Allen, and he actually had to bury his father and his brothers to get control of the whole thing. His father was founder of Cablevision.

All the NY teams make money, but especially the Yankees and the Knicks. Ad sales for the local broadcast probably look like national sales in terms of dollar figures, so it's in Dolan's primary interest -- the cable company that broadcasts all of the Knicks and Rangers games -- to spend money on a roster.
 

dreamcastrocks

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I used to like sports because I could get away from all this. Fans shouldn't have to be accountants to enjoy the game. However, more and more it seems like this is a prerequisite to be a knowledgeable fan... and the franchises expect the fans to understand. I really don't want to believe the chances of the Suns winning a Championship is in the hands of an accountant. Certainly it may ultimately be true, but I would like to think the Suns have an owner and GM that every once in awhile will look beyond the point of a pen.

:thumbdown

Yep, until fans complain about how the owner spends his money, and thinks that they are an accountant too. If you want to just be a fan, don't complain how the team spends it's money. You can't have it both ways.
 

Maligzar

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Here is my personal take on this.

The salary cap is there to prevent a situation like you see in Baseball with the Yankees. A lot of the good talent is focused on one team, because that one team can afford to buy the talent. The luxury tax is the way to keep teams honest on the Salary cap.

As a fan, I want my team to stay out of the Luxury Tax area because that means my team is following the rules. They aren't buying success, they are building success.

So with this take on money spent, it makes it a lot easier for me to handle it when my team sells picks, or trades favorite players. I see it as part of the game.
 

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