Shut it down, Amare...

[Chaplin]

Are you saying that a big part of this loss can be attributed to Amare's return?

How on earth did you reach that conclusion?

Amare being a "distraction" had nothing to do with this loss. Perhaps I spoke too soon and you didn't complete your thought about the team as a whole. For that, I apologize.

 

[elindholm]

Amare being a "distraction" had nothing to do with this loss.

I think it was a small factor, not a large one. Other small factors probably included the cross-country trip, the fact that their playoff seed won't change, wanting to "pace themselves" for the long road trip, and who knows what else. Pretty much everything went wrong, but whatever. I can't see getting too worried about it, and I think it's pretty clear that the Suns won't either.

 

[elindholm]

I just wish I hadn't heard it before.

Funny, I had the same reaction to your post.

 

[Chaplin]

Let's step back a moment and recap:

1) I have NEVER, ever said that I thought Amare came back too soon, and I have never said I thought his coming back was a good idea. I have stayed neutral in that regard.

2) I have put my faith and trust in the medical staff of the Suns (which many, if not all, on this board, once lauded), and Amare himself.

3) Fans are fickle. But when it comes down to it, most of the time we don't know what the hell we're talking about--whether it's about Tim Duncan travelling every time he catches the ball or that Amare "should still be rehabbing".

This thread was a panic attempt to address a reason why we lost so badly this evening. It is his 3rd freaking game. He had a month of some practicing (with no summertime before hand to work on his game alone), and got thrown into 3 games that mean a little something--not 5 preseason games that mean nothing--we're talking the last 15 games of the season. (And before you all get up in arms, that is still not a good enough reason for a star player to sit if he's healthy)

The point is, everyone is posting alarmist positions with no pertinent background information except what they remember happened to Chris Webber and Penny Hardaway, who a) had arthritic knees to begin with, and b) had much larger repairs to do.

Nobody here, except for the Suns' doctors, know the extent of the injury and Amare's physical ability in the knee to heal from it. And those are the people you all are dismissing as giving bad information!

If they decide that he should sit more, or even through the rest of the season, fine. I'll trust that is the best thing to do. If they still decide he should still work himself into the team, that's fine too. We're too good a team to do anything half-assed, and Amare is too good a player to start making assumptions that he (and in turn, his doctors) doesn't know what the hell he's talking about when he talks about a comeback.

So post away on all your threads about how he should sit, he'll ruin chemistry, etc., etc. Because at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what any of us say--what will happen, will happen. I can't change it, and you can't change it. Keep giving your opinion, but until someone on this board gets a real medical degree and actually examines Amare's knee, there really is no leg to stand on. I'll continue to argue this same point, and again, I'm not arguing for or against Amare's comeback. I'm arguing that he and the doctors know better than any of us about it.

 

[Chaplin]

But maybe this whole, "it's just one game," idea is the problem. I don't get this whole, "trust the Suns medical staff" idea. Ask yourself if you've ever heard this statement before:

"Ya know, if I had to do it all over again, I probably would've taken more time coming back. I should've just given it more time to get 100% healthy."

I'm fairly certain you have. Many players have done it, and I've got news for you: every single one of those players were on teams with doctors and trainers and coaches who, according to logic on this board, knew a whole lot more about sports-related injuries than we do. I know, I know - those situations were totally different. Situation A was in the 80s, situation B involved an older player, Situation C involved a white guy, Situation D involved a more serious procedure, Situation E occurred on a rainy day which is a completely different pressure system, Situation F involved the same procedure, but a more serious variant of it... To some people, that means that because the situations are different than this one, they don't apply. To me, however, it tells me one thing: it can happen to anyone in a whole host of different situations, and to deny the possibilities for any reason is not only stupid, but it's potentially dangerous.

So, yeah, tonight was just one game. And the Denver game was just one game. And together, they add up to only 2 games. We knew there were going to be setbacks (except after the Portland game when people were bashed for saying that he wasn't going to be that good from then on...) The swelling is to be expected, and if he's limping out there, it's just cause his muscles have atrophied a bit, or because it's his 5th day of training camp (as long as you ignore the weeks that he has been doing drills, and the months that he has been lifting weights). The medical staff knows best. Pain is normal.

I just wish I hadn't heard it before.

Ladies and gentleman, the only person on this board that doesn't trust the Suns medical staff and trainers at all!

 

[Chaplin]

Saying all that, i think with Amare at 80% (hopefully by the second round) i think we can win it all if everyone keeps playing to this seasons standards. So in that sense it is worth playing him to shape and sacrificing a few games along the way (and like it or not wally, amare WAS the reason behind tonights loss. We had been blow out once all season and then we lose by 38 tonight? Granted the Nets are hot but they beat us at our own game which NEVER happens. That doesnt make me any less of a fan for pointing that out. Its the truth and D'Antoni said it would be as much before Amare came back.)

That was a great post except for this part, which completely invalidates it. I like it how you say nobody beats us at our own game. I seem to remember a team from Texas doing it 4 times against us in the playoffs this year and a few times this year.

 

[Chaplin]

Amare being a "distraction" had nothing to do with this loss.

I think it was a small factor, not a large one. Other small factors probably included the cross-country trip, the fact that their playoff seed won't change, wanting to "pace themselves" for the long road trip, and who knows what else. Pretty much everything went wrong, but whatever. I can't see getting too worried about it, and I think it's pretty clear that the Suns won't either.

I think Amare being there is even less a factor, but I see what you're saying and definitely agree with what you're saying throughout the rest of your post.

 

[Folster]

The outcome of the game had nothing to do with my evaluation of Stoudemire's play. My evaluation was based mainly on his movement. He was nowhere near 80% tonight. He couldn't jump, he could barely run, and he had little lateral movement. Is there anyone that thinks his play is anywhere near 80%? He looked less than 50% to me tonight. This is the first time I have seen him play since returning from surgery and it was disturbing.
I just think mobility and strength issues should be worked out in rehab and practice, not in a game. I would think that playing on a knee with little strength makes him susceptible to potential injuries. Endurance, rhythm, and timing are things that could be worked on in games.

I hope things work out the way he and the Suns plan

 

[Arizona's Finest]

That was a great post except for this part, which completely invalidates it. I like it how you say nobody beats us at our own game. I seem to remember a team from Texas doing it 4 times against us in the playoffs this year and a few times this year.

Point taken although i would not say the Spurs beat us at our own game. They played a more offensive style of basketball then they normally do but their offense was still from the inside-out rather than the up and down perimeter play that the Suns and Nets play at.

It was said many a time that the Spurs beat us at our own game but i disagree. They opened up the reigns a little bit, but they just didnt try to stifle us and walk the ball up court as so many teams erroneously think is the way to beat us. What the Spurs did was keep close with offensive production through the first 43 minutes and then put the clamps down towards the end of the game, when they could get stops when they needed to.

The Spurs never could truly beat us at our own game because Tony Parker is not that type of PG. Jason Kidd is. Thats all I was saying.

 

[sly fly]

The outcome of the game had nothing to do with my evaluation of Stoudemire's play. My evaluation was based mainly on his movement. He was nowhere near 80% tonight. He couldn't jump, he could barely run, and he had little lateral movement. Is there anyone that thinks his play is anywhere near 80%? He looked less than 50% to me tonight. This is the first time I have seen him play since returning from surgery and it was disturbing.
I just think mobility and strength issues should be worked out in rehab and practice, not in a game. I would think that playing on a knee with little strength makes him susceptible to potential injuries. Endurance, rhythm, and timing are things that could be worked on in games.

I hope things work out the way he and the Suns plan

This is exactly why I started this thread.

I thought he looked 10-15%.

If his movement did not cause GREAT concern for some of you, then I don't know what to say.

There was no fighting through this. There was no way he was "gaining" anything from being out on the floor. He was going thorugh the motions and acted like he didn't want to be out there.

Believe me, I hope I'm wrong.

 

[jibikao]

Too bad I haven't seen Amare playing yet but for the past 2 games, I don't think he is even 30% back yet. He needs more time.

I guess the problem is Amare had a 20pt game in the first game he came back against one of the weakest teams and everybody thought Amare "is back". This is much like how Webber had a few great games in the beginning and then totally sucked for the next few.

We'll see.

 

[Dr. Dumas]

That was a great post except for this part, which completely invalidates it. I like it how you say nobody beats us at our own game. I seem to remember a team from Texas doing it 4 times against us in the playoffs this year and a few times this year.

I couldn't agree more. Man, Houston has our number for sure.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I guess the problem is Amare had a 20pt game in the first game he came back against one of the weakest teams and everybody thought Amare "is back". This is much like how Webber had a few great games in the beginning and then totally sucked for the next few.

We'll see.

Didn't anybody else see the DAntoni interview after the Denver game. I'll paraphrase:

"Yeah, Amare looked great. But they always do in the first game back. You don't get sore until a few days after. He's going to take a dip and its going to be really tough for him--and for us. But he'll have to work through it. We're just focused on winning a championship etc etc..."

He said this just after Amare scored 20 and everyone was giddy and BEFORE any game in which Amare looked bad. It was clear that the coach was trying to temper short term expectations.

The way Amare is looking right now comes as a surprise to NO ONE in the organization. Also, Amare's "discouraged" looks during games--its called muscle pain. That's that the way everyone looks during training camp.

Honestly, I don't know Amare will eventually look as a result of this surgery, but what we're seeing now is just a part of the process.

 

[Gaddabout]

I know not anything more pleasant, or more instructive, than to compare experience with expectation, or to register from time to time the difference between idea and reality. It is by this kind of observation that we grow daily less liable to be disappointed. - Samuel Johnson

.

 

[baltimorer]

I'll bet you Amare shuts it down for an extended period of time, most likely for the season, before the week is up.

 

[elindholm]

I'll bet you Amare shuts it down for an extended period of time, most likely for the season, before the week is up.

What's the bet? If you are willing to remove the "most likely" qualifier and just make it "for the season," you're on. I do think he's likely to take off a game or three, though.

 

[baltimorer]

Didn't anybody else see the DAntoni interview after the Denver game. I'll paraphrase:

"Yeah, Amare looked great. But they always do in the first game back. You don't get sore until a few days after. He's going to take a dip and its going to be really tough for him--and for us. But he'll have to work through it. We're just focused on winning a championship etc etc..."

He said this just after Amare scored 20 and everyone was giddy and BEFORE any game in which Amare looked bad. It was clear that the coach was trying to temper short term expectations.

The way Amare is looking right now comes as a surprise to NO ONE in the organization. Also, Amare's "discouraged" looks during games--its called muscle pain. That's that the way everyone looks during training camp.

Honestly, I don't know Amare will eventually look as a result of this surgery, but what we're seeing now is just a part of the process.

I think that D'Antoni quote is more revisionist thinking than anything. He may have said, "it's not going to be like this every night," but you're portraying it as though Coach predicted this scenario completely.

At some point, we're all probably going to have to stop with the "this is like Amare's training camp" business. Two years ago, I can guaruntee you that five days into training camp, Amare didn't look anything like this. You think that he came into training camp one day 1 picking quarters off of the top of the backboard and then, five days later, could barely wipe the dust off the underside of the rim? Of course, it's a combination of things, but when guys miss 65 games, and then return, from less serious injuries, they don't look like Amare looks now. When Michael Jordan came back healthy and played the Bulls' last 19 games of the season, he averaged over 27 points per game. Now, maybe Amare is less athletic or durable than a 34 year old man, but I'd guess that his "muscle soreness" has a lot more to do with the surgery than to the NBA just being physically exhausting.

Let's say the trainers and doctors are correct about the health of Amare's knee. Maybe playing on it won't hurt it. I'll even concede that. But he is limping a bit out there, and he is compensating. So, wouldn't you say there is a substantial possibility that the new swelling in his other knee could become problematic if he continues to move the way he does? There is no way for you to say that "trainers know best" on this one because I can see him putting extra pressure on his other leg that his body isn't used to.

 

[Chaplin]

At some point, we're all probably going to have to stop with the "this is like Amare's training camp" business. Two years ago, I can guaruntee you that five days into training camp, Amare didn't look anything like this.

I'd agree with that. Why? He had been working out the entire summer before working on his jumpshot, both on his own and with the national team. In this current case, he wasn't working out AT ALL for 3 or 4 months.

Let's say the trainers and doctors are correct about the health of Amare's knee. Maybe playing on it won't hurt it. I'll even concede that. But he is limping a bit out there, and he is compensating. So, wouldn't you say there is a substantial possibility that the new swelling in his other knee could become problematic if he continues to move the way he does? There is no way for you to say that "trainers know best" on this one because I can see him putting extra pressure on his other leg that his body isn't used to.

He is STIFF. It happens to players, all players. Especially in the 3rd game after a very long layoff.

"Trainers know best" is completely relevant. They are PAID, yes, paid, to do assessments like this. They can tell him to move differently so as NOT to put pressure on that other knee. You are just throwing out your opinion based on virtually nothing other than seeing him have problems moving because of stiffness in his 3rd game back after flying clear across the country. He was probably still feeling the stiffness effects from that 1st game where he had 20 and his adrenaline kept him going.

I know you don't want to give him a chance, but come on now.

 

[SactownSunsFan]

I'd agree with that. Why? He had been working out the entire summer before working on his jumpshot, both on his own and with the national team. In this current case, he wasn't working out AT ALL for 3 or 4 months.

Correction- he's has been working out Chap... on his knee.

Do some people on here think his knee excersizes and the last few weeks of one-on-one and five-on-five practices are anything like playing in real games? They're not.

 

[jibikao]

Didn't anybody else see the DAntoni interview after the Denver game. I'll paraphrase:

"Yeah, Amare looked great. But they always do in the first game back. You don't get sore until a few days after. He's going to take a dip and its going to be really tough for him--and for us. But he'll have to work through it. We're just focused on winning a championship etc etc..."

He said this just after Amare scored 20 and everyone was giddy and BEFORE any game in which Amare looked bad. It was clear that the coach was trying to temper short term expectations.

The way Amare is looking right now comes as a surprise to NO ONE in the organization. Also, Amare's "discouraged" looks during games--its called muscle pain. That's that the way everyone looks during training camp.

Honestly, I don't know Amare will eventually look as a result of this surgery, but what we're seeing now is just a part of the process.

I did say Amare needs more time to come back, didn't I? And if I remember correctly, after Amare's first 20pt game, there was an article on NBA.com that states "Amare IS back". Of course everybody thought Amare "is" back but he isn't quite "there" yet.

And no, I did not watch D'Antoni's press conference. I've said I've not seen Amare on TV yet. I live in Maryland. I shall see him on Thursday, TNT.

 

[elindholm]

Of course, it's a combination of things, but when guys miss 65 games, and then return, from less serious injuries, they don't look like Amare looks now. When Michael Jordan came back healthy and played the Bulls' last 19 games of the season, he averaged over 27 points per game. Now, maybe Amare is less athletic or durable than a 34 year old man, but I'd guess that his "muscle soreness" has a lot more to do with the surgery than to the NBA just being physically exhausting.

Do you even understand about muscle atrophy? When a limb is immobilized, the patient cannot use the muscles, and they degenerate. Quickly. This is normal and inevitable. So even once the joint is healed, the patient must build back the strength in all of the muscles that he wasn't able to use during the recovery.

Obviously someone can hit the ground running if all they did was break a hand, or even a collarbone. Just as Stoudemire was able to keep working on his upper body while his lower body healed, it works the other way around for those who have suffered an upper-body injury.

So yes, the "muscle soreness" does have to do with the surgery, but it doesn't indicate anything one way or the other about whether the surgery was successful, or whether the knee has healed properly. Stoudemire's knees could be perfect, and his legs would be having the same problem.

 

[baltimorer]

What's the bet? If you are willing to remove the "most likely" qualifier and just make it "for the season," you're on. I do think he's likely to take off a game or three, though.

I'd bet with you, but according to breaking news reports, Amare has in fact been shut down. So, it wouldn't really be a fair bet anymore, now would it?

 

[myrondizzo]

I'd bet with you, but according to breaking news reports, Amare has in fact been shut down. So, it wouldn't really be a fair bet anymore, now would it?

where is that being reported every report ive read has said that he's just going to take a few games and might take off the rest of the season if it doesnt get better. every report has said that he will still be practicing with the team. no sense in practicing if there is no chance of him comming back this year.

 

[elindholm]

I'd bet with you, but according to breaking news reports, Amare has in fact been shut down. So, it wouldn't really be a fair bet anymore, now would it?

Of course it would. Do you want the bet or not?

 

[Chaplin]

Of course it would. Do you want the bet or not?

If he trusts his own medical expertise, I'm sure he'll do that bet. He's just thinking of the stakes.