Is Kyler Murray the answer at QB for next year and beyond?

imaCafan

Next stop, Hall of Fame!
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
3,564
Reaction score
832
Location
Needles, Ca.
It was only two years ago that he was the leading candidate for NFL MVP. Everybody was raving about how great he was playing in 2021 up to late November. That was not an illusion. It was not insignificant data.

After AJ Green didn't turn around at the end of the Packers game, and he got hurt, he hasn't played great for a whole game since then. Why? That's for him and coaches to figure out. It's not that he can't do it, history shows he can. Will he? Unfortunately it is a question.
This. He CAN, so why isn’t he? Health? Mental breakdown? Scared? Bad supporting cast? Something else?
 

football karma

Happy in the pretense of knowledge
Joined
Jul 22, 2002
Posts
14,581
Reaction score
12,460
Bad offensive line:
Russell Wilson has earned a reputation as one of the most elusive and resilient quarterbacks in the NFL. His ability to extend plays under pressure and evade defenders has been crucial to his success, especially behind a Seattle Seahawks offensive line that has struggled with consistency at times. Wilson's quick release, scrambling ability, and knack for making plays on the run have made him a formidable force even when faced with constant pressure.
but as his line got worse, and the supporting running game got worse -- so did Russ
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
20,617
Reaction score
36,057
Location
UK
I went back and watched some of the All 22 after the first drive and Kyler has a major, major problem throwing with timing.

He just can't throw it unless the WR is looking back at him.

Remember the play when McBride got clocked as soon as he caught the ball on a checkdown for about 5 yards on 3rd and 10? Rondale ran a lovely route from the slot between the linebackers and turned and sat at the sticks for an easy first down. But Kyler had to throw it so it arrives as he turns. It's not a difficult pass and you see it all the time. Kyler sees it and chooses the no hoper play.

Here is that whole 3 play sequence of awful passes.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


Do you recall the first deep ball to Hollywood we all agreed was underthrown. Watch this and see just how underthrown it is. The window for Kyler to drop this into is huge but he still misses it. He basically just has to drop it outside the numbers for Brown to adjust to. If it's perfect he even has a chance to turn and home it with the space he has.

Just a terrible, terrible pass. It's so off target that Brown is adjusting his route before it's even half way there.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


The play after it's 3rd and 8. The Rams get the sack but McBride is open to get the 1st down. He's decided for some reason that Rondale is his one and only read despite him being in tight coverage running a stop route 2 yards short for 1st down. IMO McBride should be the first read based on how they are aligned.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


I won't do any more. It's depressingly bad.
 

kerouac9

Klowned by Keim
Joined
Feb 14, 2003
Posts
35,963
Reaction score
24,679
Location
Gilbert, AZ
He just can't throw it unless the WR is looking back at him.

Kyler's struggles as a rhythm passer have been known for a long time. Maybe he shows something in practice that he's getting there, or is just receptive to the fundamentals. I'm really suspicious that you can re-teach these fundamentals at a professional level.
The Rams get the sack but McBride is open to get the 1st down. He's decided for some reason that Rondale is his one and only read despite him being in tight coverage running a stop route 2 yards short for 1st down.
This is a hard one for me. No one looks open before the walls close in on Kyler.
 

cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
87,595
Reaction score
59,489
but as his line got worse, and the supporting running game got worse -- so did Russ
This isn’t really true. As he lost his job running game and O-line, Russ vaulted himself into an MVP candidate, carrying that team to the playoffs and seeing his stats skyrocket in his last four of five years with Seattle, well past the heyday of Lynch.

His second to last year with the Hawks, he threw for 40 TDs and 11 interceptions, en route to leading them to a 12-4 record, without much of a running game and terrible O-line. And even in his last season threw for 25 TDs and only 6 picks in 13.5 games when the Hawks were really deficient running the ball.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
20,617
Reaction score
36,057
Location
UK
Kyler's struggles as a rhythm passer have been known for a long time. Maybe he shows something in practice that he's getting there, or is just receptive to the fundamentals. I'm really suspicious that you can re-teach these fundamentals at a professional level.

This is a hard one for me. No one looks open before the walls close in on Kyler.

I thought so at first when watching that last play but McBride is well open for an easy pass there, he just stares down Rondale.

On Kyler, I agree, I don't think he can be fixed. I think there are some fundamental flaws to his game that are way beyond correcting now.

Will give him the rest of the season before deciding because maybe it's rust (I doubt it) but it's leaning towards having to move on.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
20,617
Reaction score
36,057
Location
UK
I went back and watched some of the All 22 after the first drive and Kyler has a major, major problem throwing with timing.

He just can't throw it unless the WR is looking back at him.

Remember the play when McBride got clocked as soon as he caught the ball on a checkdown for about 5 yards on 3rd and 10? Rondale ran a lovely route from the slot between the linebackers and turned and sat at the sticks for an easy first down. But Kyler had to throw it so it arrives as he turns. It's not a difficult pass and you see it all the time. Kyler sees it and chooses the no hoper play.

Here is that whole 3 play sequence of awful passes.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


Do you recall the first deep ball to Hollywood we all agreed was underthrown. Watch this and see just how underthrown it is. The window for Kyler to drop this into is huge but he still misses it. He basically just has to drop it outside the numbers for Brown to adjust to. If it's perfect he even has a chance to turn and home it with the space he has.

Just a terrible, terrible pass. It's so off target that Brown is adjusting his route before it's even half way there.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


The play after it's 3rd and 8. The Rams get the sack but McBride is open to get the 1st down. He's decided for some reason that Rondale is his one and only read despite him being in tight coverage running a stop route 2 yards short for 1st down. IMO McBride should be the first read based on how they are aligned.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


I won't do any more. It's depressingly bad.

Watch Kylers feet on the underthrown pass to Hollywood. What's he doing there? If his back leg is coming forward like that then he has to be leaning back, not stepping into the throw.
 

Crimson Warrior

Dangerous Murray Zealot
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Posts
7,474
Reaction score
7,055
Location
Home of the Thunder
I went back and watched some of the All 22 after the first drive and Kyler has a major, major problem throwing with timing.

He just can't throw it unless the WR is looking back at him.

Remember the play when McBride got clocked as soon as he caught the ball on a checkdown for about 5 yards on 3rd and 10? Rondale ran a lovely route from the slot between the linebackers and turned and sat at the sticks for an easy first down. But Kyler had to throw it so it arrives as he turns. It's not a difficult pass and you see it all the time. Kyler sees it and chooses the no hoper play.

Here is that whole 3 play sequence of awful passes.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


Do you recall the first deep ball to Hollywood we all agreed was underthrown. Watch this and see just how underthrown it is. The window for Kyler to drop this into is huge but he still misses it. He basically just has to drop it outside the numbers for Brown to adjust to. If it's perfect he even has a chance to turn and home it with the space he has.

Just a terrible, terrible pass. It's so off target that Brown is adjusting his route before it's even half way there.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


The play after it's 3rd and 8. The Rams get the sack but McBride is open to get the 1st down. He's decided for some reason that Rondale is his one and only read despite him being in tight coverage running a stop route 2 yards short for 1st down. IMO McBride should be the first read based on how they are aligned.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media


I won't do any more. It's depressingly bad.

Let's be patient please Britcard. Let's improve the oline a little in the offseason, and also get a legit WR1.

I know it sucks for many on this board, but 2024 is going to be the real referendum on Murray.
 

cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
87,595
Reaction score
59,489
Let's be patient please Britcard. Let's improve the oline a little in the offseason, and also get a legit WR1.

I know it sucks for many on this board, but 2024 is going to be the real referendum on Murray.
Lol… this is the third straight “referendum” season of Kyler’s career.

And every year that answer looks questionable or flat out no, like last season, only the NEXT year will be the REAL referendum.
 

Stout

Hold onto the ball, Murray!
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Posts
37,572
Reaction score
19,938
Location
Pittsburgh, PA--Enemy territory!
Let's be patient please Britcard. Let's improve the oline a little in the offseason, and also get a legit WR1.

I know it sucks for many on this board, but 2024 is going to be the real referendum on Murray.
You have to get why people aren't patient with him though. He's how many years into his career and how many years into the big money deal he literally threw a fit to get, and we have to be patient? Hopefully he's turning it around by season's end, but when a guy tells you who he is, believe him. I honestly believe some here (not you necessarily) would be preaching patience and the need for a better roster in year 8, 9, 10. When does patience become "I've been burned already and don't want to be burned any longer."
 

Krangodnzr

Captain of Team Murray
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
33,700
Reaction score
29,163
Location
Orange County, CA
It was only two years ago that he was the leading candidate for NFL MVP. Everybody was raving about how great he was playing in 2021 up to late November. That was not an illusion. It was not insignificant data.

After AJ Green didn't turn around at the end of the Packers game, and he got hurt, he hasn't played great for a whole game since then. Why? That's for him and coaches to figure out. It's not that he can't do it, history shows he can. Will he? Unfortunately it is a question.
This mirrors my thinking. I think Kyler can be a really good QB. If it's not here, he will figure it out somewhere else.
 

BirdGangThing

Casual Fan
Joined
Dec 27, 2019
Posts
9,931
Reaction score
12,658
Location
Arcadia
Kyler's put in the work - rehabbing both his knee and relationship with the team

Looked good out the gates and is now in overthinking everything - that's what I see at least - young QB trying to listen to the voice in his helmet over the voice in his head

But I guarantee you Petzing isn't yelling at Kyler while he goes thru his progressions - or as he chucks it

Those throws are on Kyler Murray and Kyler Murray alone - but I also guarantee Kyler Murray is more than capable of making those throws

Dude just isn't in balance with the football universe right now - and this offensive line isn't helping matters
 

Crimson Warrior

Dangerous Murray Zealot
Joined
Oct 27, 2002
Posts
7,474
Reaction score
7,055
Location
Home of the Thunder
You have to get why people aren't patient with him though. He's how many years into his career and how many years into the big money deal he literally threw a fit to get, and we have to be patient? Hopefully he's turning it around by season's end, but when a guy tells you who he is, believe him. I honestly believe some here (not you necessarily) would be preaching patience and the need for a better roster in year 8, 9, 10. When does patience become "I've been burned already and don't want to be burned any longer."

I'll be honest with you, I'm alarmed by the way he's throwing the ball these last three games (specifically the wobblers and consistent underthrows), but at this point I'm trying not to overreact or draw definitive conclusions. It's all but inconceivable to me that he's washed because there's no logical cause for that effect to have occurred. Still, the data points going back to through 2022 are troubling.

I also honestly think (for a lot of reasons that I won't rehash here) it's best for the team overall to give him a runway that includes 2024 plus an effort to upgrade the talent around him this offseason. Even if we have to hold our nose for the rest of this year to do so. It's probably not very exciting for you to read that my friend I'm sure.

I know it's little solace to those who are ready right now to move on from Murray, but to be considered our QBOF, for 2024 I think he needs to post a pure passer rating of right around 95.0 (plus rush effectively). That's my attempt to view the situation objectively.
 

cheesebeef

ASFN IDOL
Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2003
Posts
87,595
Reaction score
59,489
I'll be honest with you, I'm alarmed by the way he's throwing the ball, but at this point I'm trying not to overreact or draw definitive conclusions. It's all but inconceivable to me that he's washed because there's no logical cause for that effect to have occurred. Still, the data points going back to through 2022 are troubling.

I also honestly think (for a lot of reasons that I won't rehash here) it's best for the team overall to give him a runway that includes 2024 plus an effort to upgrade the talent around him this offseason. Even if we have to hold our nose for the rest of this year to do so. It's probably not very exciting for you to read that my friend I'm sure.

I know it's little solace to those who are ready right now to move on from Murray, but to be considered our QBOF, for 2024 I think he needs to post a pure passer rating of right around 95.0 (plus rush effectively). That's my attempt to view the situation objectively.
I think this is all pretty fair, especially the last paragraph.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
20,617
Reaction score
36,057
Location
UK
Let's be patient please Britcard. Let's improve the oline a little in the offseason, and also get a legit WR1.

I know it sucks for many on this board, but 2024 is going to be the real referendum on Murray.

I feel like we have said this for 3 consecutive offseasons. Sometimes you just have to accept the facts. Our O line is fine, it's not going to dominate every game but it's fine.

He has 5 more games, that's a lot of games. If there isn't some marked improvement I don't know what other choice there is.

On saying that, I expect the Pats to overtake us and for us to miss out on Maye and Williams anyway. So may be moot.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
20,617
Reaction score
36,057
Location
UK
You have to get why people aren't patient with him though. He's how many years into his career and how many years into the big money deal he literally threw a fit to get, and we have to be patient? Hopefully he's turning it around by season's end, but when a guy tells you who he is, believe him. I honestly believe some here (not you necessarily) would be preaching patience and the need for a better roster in year 8, 9, 10. When does patience become "I've been burned already and don't want to be burned any longer."

It's not just that he isn't winning or lets us down in clutch moments. This isn't a Herbert situation.

He's being absolute dogshit on basic stuff.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
20,617
Reaction score
36,057
Location
UK
I'll be honest with you, I'm alarmed by the way he's throwing the ball these last three games (specifically the wobblers and consistent underthrows), but at this point I'm trying not to overreact or draw definitive conclusions. It's all but inconceivable to me that he's washed because there's no logical cause for that effect to have occurred. Still, the data points going back to through 2022 are troubling.

I also honestly think (for a lot of reasons that I won't rehash here) it's best for the team overall to give him a runway that includes 2024 plus an effort to upgrade the talent around him this offseason. Even if we have to hold our nose for the rest of this year to do so. It's probably not very exciting for you to read that my friend I'm sure.

I know it's little solace to those who are ready right now to move on from Murray, but to be considered our QBOF, for 2024 I think he needs to post a pure passer rating of right around 95.0 (plus rush effectively). That's my attempt to view the situation objectively.

I think this is the mostly likely thing to happen if for no other reason than I think we miss on top 2.

Kyler really controls his own fate. If he loses out, he's probably done. If he wins 2 he's definitely safe. Even winning 1 probably saves him but could go either way.
 

BritCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Posts
20,617
Reaction score
36,057
Location
UK
Disagree. I don't think it has anything to do with him winning or losing - it's about how he plays.

Him winning or losing will push us in or out of being able to pick Williams or Maye.

The only other solution would be to trade both our firsts to move up which would be a nightmare and I don't see them doing.
 

DVontel

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Posts
12,277
Reaction score
20,802
Patriots own the Jets. As awful as the Patriots have looked, I bet they will beat the Jets in their next matchup.
 

Russ Smith

The Original Whizzinator
Supporting Member
Joined
May 14, 2002
Posts
84,019
Reaction score
32,583
I missed the first drive so until I saw highlights I hadn't seen how good he looked on that drive. It is weird how good he looked that drive vs the rest of the game.
 
Top