Arians, Fitz and Palmer Return in 2018?

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,117
Reaction score
11,949
Location
Las Vegas, NV
This is totally out of whack concerning if Palmer can get the job done. How the hell could he have performed any better when not having a OL or running game or in the recent game when the coach wants to call a crack pot jump ball when he does have one. Yes, we need a QB of the future because Palmer is older and one day will retire but for me your accusations that Palmer is obviously amiss is funny

I'm sorry, but I watched week 1 passes fall in the dirt or be picked (when he HAD protection), I've watched him underthrow receivers, and he hasn't been able to consistently put the team in a position to win when opportunities are there. I'll admit there are some issues around him, but thinking he's deserving of another year as essentially our only option is extremely shortsighted.

Well, I'll bet that the Cards will be more than happy should CP choose to return and will draft a QBOF understudy in 2018. And with $35m + in CAP space as it stands going into next offseason, the Cards have more than enough to play in the Free Agent market.

$35m has to go toward the fact that we have only 1 QB under contract (Palmer), 2 WRs (JJ and Chad Williams), 1 TE, 1 DE, half of our starting linebackers, and realistically only 1 CB because I don't think anyone wants to bother counting Brandon Williams anymore. There's barely a team in place.

We have 24% of the cap this year dedicated to just Larry and Palmer alone - and Palmer is being paid as a top 5 player at his position. While he might be #2 in yards, he's 29th in quarterback rating. 19th in QBR, if you're into that kind of thing.

What does Less money have to do with reliability?

So, to my points above, and other points that have already been made - reliability counts on someone for him to actually throw to. For the team around him to be functional. For the offensive line to have capable players. Not to mention that he is paid higher this season, and has a similar cap number into the next, than all but one player - Joe Flacco. That means he should be the second best QB in the league. Or at least top 5, let's say. Hell, top 10. I surely know I could name a solid amount I'd prefer more than Palmer - who I like, but can't take over games, and has had two knee injuries with next to nothing in terms of playoff results.

If Carson wants to come back and QB this team next year? Let's see him do it for the $14 million or less Brady is going to make.
 

Cardiac

ASFN Icon
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Posts
12,042
Reaction score
3,229
I'm sorry, but I watched week 1 passes fall in the dirt or be picked (when he HAD protection), I've watched him underthrow receivers, and he hasn't been able to consistently put the team in a position to win when opportunities are there. I'll admit there are some issues around him, but thinking he's deserving of another year as essentially our only option is extremely shortsighted.



$35m has to go toward the fact that we have only 1 QB under contract (Palmer), 2 WRs (JJ and Chad Williams), 1 TE, 1 DE, half of our starting linebackers, and realistically only 1 CB because I don't think anyone wants to bother counting Brandon Williams anymore. There's barely a team in place.

We have 24% of the cap this year dedicated to just Larry and Palmer alone - and Palmer is being paid as a top 5 player at his position. While he might be #2 in yards, he's 29th in quarterback rating. 19th in QBR, if you're into that kind of thing.



So, to my points above, and other points that have already been made - reliability counts on someone for him to actually throw to. For the team around him to be functional. For the offensive line to have capable players. Not to mention that he is paid higher this season, and has a similar cap number into the next, than all but one player - Joe Flacco. That means he should be the second best QB in the league. Or at least top 5, let's say. Hell, top 10. I surely know I could name a solid amount I'd prefer more than Palmer - who I like, but can't take over games, and has had two knee injuries with next to nothing in terms of playoff results.

If Carson wants to come back and QB this team next year? Let's see him do it for the $14 million or less Brady is going to make.

I don't agree with all the above negatives about Carson but do agree he might not be a top ten QB. As far as taking less money Brady is the only QB out there doing that so bashing Carson for that is unfair, plus I'm sure the Cheatriots are doing some funny accounting :)

Lions just paid Stratford a ton of money and he hasn't taken his team anywhere. Dalton for the Bengals keep getting chances. Carr for the Raiders just got PAID and while very promising hasn't proven... Hell even Alex Smith for the Chiefs makes good coin. My point is getting an NFL quality QB is maybe the hardest thing to do in professional sports so when you find a good one who is an excellent teammate and leader and worker then you keep him and try to build up the team around him.

When Carson has time and isn't running for his life and on pace to get sacked 60 times and has a running game he puts up tremendous numbers and yes can lead this team to the playoffs and beyond.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Posts
10,232
Reaction score
6,928
Location
Chandler
I don't agree with all the above negatives about Carson but do agree he might not be a top ten QB. As far as taking less money Brady is the only QB out there doing that so bashing Carson for that is unfair, plus I'm sure the Cheatriots are doing some funny accounting :)

Lions just paid Stratford a ton of money and he hasn't taken his team anywhere. Dalton for the Bengals keep getting chances. Carr for the Raiders just got PAID and while very promising hasn't proven... Hell even Alex Smith for the Chiefs makes good coin. My point is getting an NFL quality QB is maybe the hardest thing to do in professional sports so when you find a good one who is an excellent teammate and leader and worker then you keep him and try to build up the team around him.

When Carson has time and isn't running for his life and on pace to get sacked 60 times and has a running game he puts up tremendous numbers and yes can lead this team to the playoffs and beyond.

Palmer is making $500,000 more per year on average than Brady.

https://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/


Also Brady has more guaranteed money than Palmer.
 

overseascardfan

ASFN Addict
Joined
Apr 9, 2005
Posts
8,807
Reaction score
2,094
Location
Phoenix
We have $35m to spend as it stands with CP'S contract included.

Who's your QB in 2018?

And don't forget replacement cost.
Draft a QB in first round and trade for a QB like Nick Foles who would be a FA after next year costing only $7M. I would offer a 4th rounder and while people may say that is too much remember that this year’s fourth rounder didn’t make the team.
 

oaken1

Stone Cold
Supporting Member
Banned from P+R
Joined
Mar 13, 2004
Posts
16,788
Reaction score
13,476
Location
Modesto, California
I don't agree with all the above negatives about Carson but do agree he might not be a top ten QB. As far as taking less money Brady is the only QB out there doing that so bashing Carson for that is unfair, plus I'm sure the Cheatriots are doing some funny accounting :)

Lions just paid Stratford a ton of money and he hasn't taken his team anywhere. Dalton for the Bengals keep getting chances. Carr for the Raiders just got PAID and while very promising hasn't proven... Hell even Alex Smith for the Chiefs makes good coin. My point is getting an NFL quality QB is maybe the hardest thing to do in professional sports so when you find a good one who is an excellent teammate and leader and worker then you keep him and try to build up the team around him.

When Carson has time and isn't running for his life and on pace to get sacked 60 times and has a running game he puts up tremendous numbers and yes can lead this team to the playoffs and beyond.
Brady also has a wife who banks 300mil
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,117
Reaction score
11,949
Location
Las Vegas, NV
I don't agree with all the above negatives about Carson but do agree he might not be a top ten QB. As far as taking less money Brady is the only QB out there doing that so bashing Carson for that is unfair, plus I'm sure the Cheatriots are doing some funny accounting :)

Lions just paid Stratford a ton of money and he hasn't taken his team anywhere. Dalton for the Bengals keep getting chances. Carr for the Raiders just got PAID and while very promising hasn't proven... Hell even Alex Smith for the Chiefs makes good coin. My point is getting an NFL quality QB is maybe the hardest thing to do in professional sports so when you find a good one who is an excellent teammate and leader and worker then you keep him and try to build up the team around him.

When Carson has time and isn't running for his life and on pace to get sacked 60 times and has a running game he puts up tremendous numbers and yes can lead this team to the playoffs and beyond.

The only reason I used Brady was the age comparison and that, like it or not, Carson isn't Brady. And I'm not necessarily worried about bonus money or the overall value of the contract, I'm just talking in a pure vacuum, looking at next year's cap hit. Carson was worth this money in 2015, no doubt. Now, he is not. Sure, there are some overpaid players, like Dalton, and Joe Flacco, but I can't imagine anyone on this board would really rather have Carson Palmer at 20 million next year over Carr/Stafford at that number. And Alex Smith surely isn't going to make that much money next year.

I don't want to pay any Quarterback $20 million dollars next year though, not when this team has so many pure roster spots to fill. If we're drafting in the top 10, take a QB and start him right away. If we're drafting outside of it, sign someone like AJ McCarron/Alex Smith, re-sign Gabbert, and draft a kid, and let them all fight it out.
 

Proximo

ASFN Icon
Joined
Mar 8, 2015
Posts
12,246
Reaction score
9,943
Draft a QB in first round and trade for a QB like Nick Foles who would be a FA after next year costing only $7M. I would offer a 4th rounder and while people may say that is too much remember that this year’s fourth rounder didn’t make the team.

Nick Foles???? You obviously didn't watch his most recent starts. If you want to trade for someone, either Bridgewater or Bradford should be available, Jacoby Brissett might be available, those are far far better options.

Gabbert is twice the QB Foles is, other than his fluke Rookie year Foles is lucky to still be in the league. I would not sign him as a free agent, let alone trade anything for him.

I do not understand your hatred for Palmer, the last 4 games he has played very very well, top 10 QB well. Everyone knows he only has a couple years left, but you can start rebuilding with an old qb and rebuild at other positions, you don't have to gut the team just to gut it unless you really are going to tank. I do not think Bidwill, and Keim ever want to tank - the fact they just traded for old man Peterson says as much.
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
The only reason I used Brady was the age comparison and that, like it or not, Carson isn't Brady. And I'm not necessarily worried about bonus money or the overall value of the contract, I'm just talking in a pure vacuum, looking at next year's cap hit. Carson was worth this money in 2015, no doubt. Now, he is not. Sure, there are some overpaid players, like Dalton, and Joe Flacco, but I can't imagine anyone on this board would really rather have Carson Palmer at 20 million next year over Carr/Stafford at that number. And Alex Smith surely isn't going to make that much money next year.

I don't want to pay any Quarterback $20 million dollars next year though, not when this team has so many pure roster spots to fill. If we're drafting in the top 10, take a QB and start him right away. If we're drafting outside of it, sign someone like AJ McCarron/Alex Smith, re-sign Gabbert, and draft a kid, and let them all fight it out.

The chances of the Cards not honouring the present terms of his contract should he wish to return add up to zero... imo.
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,117
Reaction score
11,949
Location
Las Vegas, NV
The chances of the Cards not honouring the present terms of his contract should he wish to return add up to zero... imo.

I genuinely don't believe he's going to play next year and will retire, but saving $14 million on the cap if we release him makes me think otherwise if he insists he's playing in 2018 no matter what.
 

cardpa

Have a Nice Day!
Joined
Mar 14, 2003
Posts
7,336
Reaction score
4,011
Location
Monroe NC
Nick Foles???? You obviously didn't watch his most recent starts. If you want to trade for someone, either Bridgewater or Bradford should be available, Jacoby Brissett might be available, those are far far better options.

Gabbert is twice the QB Foles is, other than his fluke Rookie year Foles is lucky to still be in the league. I would not sign him as a free agent, let alone trade anything for him.

I do not understand your hatred for Palmer, the last 4 games he has played very very well, top 10 QB well. Everyone knows he only has a couple years left, but you can start rebuilding with an old qb and rebuild at other positions, you don't have to gut the team just to gut it unless you really are going to tank. I do not think Bidwill, and Keim ever want to tank - the fact they just traded for old man Peterson says as much.

Bradford is an injury waiting to happen. Until Bridgewater proves he is completely back from his injury I wouldn't touch him either. Brissett is meh. I would let Stanton go, resign Gabbert and then either draft a QB if I am feeling confident who I am taking can become the QBOTF or look to sign Garoppolo or Cousins or maybe Taylor or Smith. McCarron is coming free as a RFA. Brees is too, but I don't see Brees leaving NO and the fact that he is going to be 39 come January. That is all that is worth anything in 2018 unless you can swing a trade. There is a nice group of WRs coming available that can replace the likes of the Browns and Golden. There will be a few nice TEs too. You could probably find a guard in FA but RT is weak.
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
I genuinely don't believe he's going to play next year and will retire, but saving $14 million on the cap if we release him makes me think otherwise if he insists he's playing in 2018 no matter what.

Are you saying they'd cut CP to save $14m?
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,117
Reaction score
11,949
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Are you saying they'd cut CP to save $14m?

Again, realistically looking at it, I say he retires. If he comes back for another year, I think the team has to force him to take a pay cut (and if he and Fitz were both coming back for "one more run," I think he probably would take a little less).

If the unlikely scenario occurs where he says "I'm not retiring, I'm staying another year, and I'm not adjusting my contract," I think the team almost has to cut him.
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
Again, realistically looking at it, I say he retires. If he comes back for another year, I think the team has to force him to take a pay cut (and if he and Fitz were both coming back for "one more run," I think he probably would take a little less).

If the unlikely scenario occurs where he says "I'm not retiring, I'm staying another year, and I'm not adjusting my contract," I think the team almost has to cut him.

If he returns, I can't imagine your scenario. Bidwill and Co. are not going to turn their back on guy who could generate 4000 yards and their best chance to win.
 
Joined
Aug 7, 2008
Posts
10,232
Reaction score
6,928
Location
Chandler
If he returns, I can't imagine your scenario. Bidwill and Co. are not going to turn their back on guy who could generate 4000 yards and their best chance to win.

This. If he comes back it will be on his current contract. He is not taking a cut in pay. Especially after the beating he receives every game.
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,117
Reaction score
11,949
Location
Las Vegas, NV
If he returns, I can't imagine your scenario. Bidwill and Co. are not going to turn their back on guy who could generate 4000 yards and their best chance to win.

For the hundredth time, 4,000 yards =/= best chance to win. It's like Bortles in years past, who threw for 4,000 yards because his team was down big because he couldn't produce early.

Game 1: Palmer can't get anything going, team keeps in it until the end of the 3rd, he throws the pick six that seals the game, most of his yards come in the 4th where we're out of it.
Game 2: Gets nothing done all game until the 4th quarter where a big chunk of his yardage comes off of one throw. One half of his yards accumulate in the 4th quarter in desperation mode. And this was a BAD Colts team.
Game 3: Admittedly this one wasn't his fault.
Game 4: Can't get us off the ground all game, and is in chuck it and pray mode. Maybe you can blame the OL here but it's still 51 attempts, 50 attempts before a TD was thrown.
Game 5: The entire team was flat, but it was still a bad game. And still a majority of yardage in the 4th when the Eagles had it in the bag.

The yardage numbers pretty much ignore game flow and QB effectiveness. Again, he's 29th in quarterback rating. He's not "their best chance to win."
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
For the hundredth time, 4,000 yards =/= best chance to win. It's like Bortles in years past, who threw for 4,000 yards because his team was down big because he couldn't produce early.

Game 1: Palmer can't get anything going, team keeps in it until the end of the 3rd, he throws the pick six that seals the game, most of his yards come in the 4th where we're out of it.
Game 2: Gets nothing done all game until the 4th quarter where a big chunk of his yardage comes off of one throw. One half of his yards accumulate in the 4th quarter in desperation mode. And this was a BAD Colts team.
Game 3: Admittedly this one wasn't his fault.
Game 4: Can't get us off the ground all game, and is in chuck it and pray mode. Maybe you can blame the OL here but it's still 51 attempts, 50 attempts before a TD was thrown.
Game 5: The entire team was flat, but it was still a bad game. And still a majority of yardage in the 4th when the Eagles had it in the bag.

The yardage numbers pretty much ignore game flow and QB effectiveness. Again, he's 29th in quarterback rating. He's not "their best chance to win."

Bottom line, you want him out and can't offer us a replacement that we can have a modicum of confidence in at this point.

If he retires, end of story.

If he returns it will be under his existing contract. IMO.

And it will be because the people with skin in the game believe he gives them the best chance to win.
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,117
Reaction score
11,949
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Bottom line, you want him out and can't offer us a replacement that we can have a modicum of confidence in at this point.

If he retires, end of story.

If he returns it will be under his existing contract. IMO.

And it will be because the people with skin in the game believe he gives them the best chance to win.

But I offered replacement options already... Smith, McCarron, someone else mentioned Brissett, along with a rookie QB and Gabbert or similar to compete.
 

GuernseyCard

ASFN Icon
Joined
Dec 29, 2012
Posts
10,123
Reaction score
5,681
Location
London UK
But I offered replacement options already... Smith, McCarron, someone else mentioned Brissett, along with a rookie QB and Gabbert or similar to compete.

Smith is the only one with a pedigree and could offer some confidence in a transition. But, at best it's $5m saving in 2018.

If we draft our QBOF, why would you care which vet holds the reins next season?

As said: It's CP'S decision to return or not and I think Bidwill and Co. would be more than happy if he did and the present contract would be a non issue.

P.S - CP has been hit 66 times so far. It was down to 4 last game and we saw an efficient performance.
 

Solar7

Go Suns
Joined
May 18, 2002
Posts
11,117
Reaction score
11,949
Location
Las Vegas, NV
Smith is the only one with a pedigree and could offer some confidence in a transition. But, at best it's $5m saving in 2018.

If we draft our QBOF, why would you care which vet holds the reins next season?

As said: It's CP'S decision to return or not and I think Bidwill and Co. would be more than happy if he did and the present contract would be a non issue.

P.S - CP has been hit 66 times so far. It was down to 4 last game and we saw an efficient performance.

I care because the rest of the roster is extraordinarily depleted, as mentioned in one of my previous posts. Plus "a rookie QB" does not automatically mean we have our quarterback of the future. But to ensure his success, I'd prefer we use cap space to build a young core around the rookie or cheaper QB than continue to try to squeeze the very last drops out of the oldest team in the league, and the third oldest QB in the league.

This team is barely 3-3 right now. I legitimately can't understand why one win against a struggling Buccaneers team makes you think the trick to winning a Super Bowl in the 2018 season is bringing back a QB who is finishing outside of the top 15 in all key statistics besides attempts, yardage, and interceptions.
 

daves

Keepin' it real!
Supporting Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2003
Posts
3,390
Reaction score
6,630
Location
Orange County, CA
Smith is the only one with a pedigree and could offer some confidence in a transition. But, at best it's $5m saving in 2018.
Wait a minute... Palmer has a $20.625M cap number in 2018, and cutting him would yield a $14M cap saving.

Alex Smith has a $16.9M cap number this year and is scheduled to be paid $17M in salary and new bonuses next year with KC... has a 120+ passer rating, 15 TDs and 0 INTs... and you think, if cut loose, he would sign for a $5M SAVING compared to Palmer, even after accounting for Palmer's $6.625M in dead money?!?

:shrug:

...dave
 

schutd

ASFN Addict
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
6,146
Reaction score
1,826
Location
Charleston, SC
A player as talented as Johnson should NOT be downgraded to RB2.

Agreed. If DJ hasnt 1000% cemented his place as THE FUTURE of this team, I dont know what to say. You DO NOT "demote" a player like that, even if its only in perception, and expect him to A. take it happily, and B. not consider bouncing at the end of his rookie deal.
 

schutd

ASFN Addict
Joined
Oct 15, 2002
Posts
6,146
Reaction score
1,826
Location
Charleston, SC
Because David Johnson can also excel at WR, there is no reason why he and Adrian Peterson can't be dual focal points of the offense. In this day and age, every team needs two good RBs to share the load. This can be a blessing for Johnson in that without another very good RB on the roster, his workload could have been overwhelming. I think DJ and AP will forge a tremendous bond.

if the Cardinals have a chance to make the playoffs, it would be a blessing to have David Johnson fresher and less beat up.


Also agreed, but you HAVE to have the wily vet come out and say that he knows his role, that he is happy to be here playing with DJ and that he believes its his best chance to win it all doing it side by side with DJ, as his mentor to some degree, and NOT as the featured back. AP has never done that. As far as I know, he's always grumbled for NO.1 status. If he doesnt acknowledge that, you have to try and move him. The danger for a highly combustible situation is too great.

I would LOVE for it to work out. Ego, not talent will determine if its a possibility.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
540,796
Posts
5,295,685
Members
6,288
Latest member
Crazy_Player
Top