The Ayton Plan

[Muggz]

I don't remember the Bleacher report ever predicting anything that came true that wasn't already predicted by Woj the previous week.
They are literally the Enquirer of the sports news world.

 

[Folster]

I assume if re-signing Ayton is not in the cards, we have had or will have conversations with interested teams about frameworks of a deal. Ayton's camp will know who is interested as well and we will try to steer him to a preferred location by refusing to negotiate a sign and trade with certain teams and using our right to match as a threat.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I just like him more than the Grant/Poeltl/Nurkic types we talk about. I’d prefer Anunoby but I don’t think he gets moved.

Ayton's weakness has to do with his head/heart. I don't want to lose him but I especially don't want to lose him for a lesser player that has a similar kind of weakness.

Poeltl isn't as talented as Collins but I'd take him over any of the names mentioned so far except for someone like Anunoby that we probably can't get close to.

And to be clear, I'd take Collins over Grant and I'd take Grant over Nurkic. But I'd take a maxed out DA over every name that's been rumored or suggested here.

 

[Finito]

I assume if re-signing Ayton is not in the cards, we have had or will have conversations with interested teams about frameworks of a deal. Ayton's camp will know who is interested as well and we will try to steer him to a preferred location by refusing to negotiate a sign and trade with certain teams and using our right to match as a threat.

A sign and trade is totally up to the player.

His agent and him already know who’s interested. Ayton has to want to play there first. That’s what also makes this a tricky situation. If they had just signed him in the offseason they would be in control of this instead it’s Ayton and his team.

It was just handled bad and they’ve cost themselves leverage just like the Stix deal if you had just signed him you would of had way more options

 

[Folster]

A sign and trade is totally up to the player.

I disagree. Firstly, the Suns have no obligation to negotiate with any teams. Secondly, many teams that are interested and Ayton may prefer don't have the cap space to sign him outright and/or would prefer not to use cap space alone to sign him as it would impact their other plans in free agency negatively.

We can steer him to teams we prefer using that leverage.

 

[Finito]

I disagree. Firstly, the Suns have no obligation to negotiate with any teams. Secondly, many teams that are interested and Ayton may prefer don't have the cap space to sign him outright and/or would prefer not to use cap space alone to sign him as it would impact their other plans in free agency negatively.

We can steer him to teams we prefer using that leverage.

It’s not even really a question who’s in control in a sign and trade. The player is

Go back and look at the history of sign and trades they are ridiculously lopsided for a reason. The team trading away the player has never once won the trade.

 

[GatorAZ]

It’s not even really a question who’s in control in a sign and trade. The player is

Go back and look at the history of sign and trades they are ridiculously lopsided for a reason. The team trading away the player has never once won the trade.

I think what Folster may be getting at is Ayton will need to convince Team X to give up enough to get a deal done because the Suns have the final say. My fear is basically what happened in 05’ where ownership is shoddy enough to accept a 50 cents on the dollar trade instead of playing hardball and forcing the player to sign an offer-sheet thus matching. That is where leverage and control mean slightly different things. If Ayton wants out bad enough the Suns may get 75 cents instead of 50. Either way I’m prepared to be disappointed.

 

[Joe Mama]

It’s not even really a question who’s in control in a sign and trade. The player is

Go back and look at the history of sign and trades they are ridiculously lopsided for a reason. The team trading away the player has never once won the trade.

DA is restricted. There are two parties in control in this scenario. I agree that it's pretty common for a team doing a sign in trade do not receive back equal talent. That kind of makes sense, doesn't it? My guess and my hope is that the Phoenix Suns are looking at this like they are either going to get very good return in a sign in trade or they are going to match and keep DA at least until you can trade him for something they like.

Joe

 

[Big Al]

A sign and trade is totally up to the player.

His agent and him already know who’s interested. Ayton has to want to play there first. That’s what also makes this a tricky situation. If they had just signed him in the offseason they would be in control of this instead it’s Ayton and his team.

It was just handled bad and they’ve cost themselves leverage just like the Stix deal if you had just signed him you would of had way more options

That's Suns business as usual. The Suns as a team played the Mavericks in this year playoffs with their wheels falling off and that's the same way Sarver has dealt with restricted free agent Ayton & players like Stix, Joe Johnson and to lesser players Bledsoe & Dragic in the past. We can't expect any difference from Sarver.

 

[Finito]

I think what Folster may be getting at is Ayton will need to convince Team X to give up enough to get a deal done because the Suns have the final say. My fear is basically what happened in 05’ where ownership is shoddy enough to accept a 50 cents on the dollar trade instead of playing hardball and forcing the player to sign an offer-sheet thus matching. That is where leverage and control mean slightly different things. If Ayton wants out bad enough the Suns may get 75 cents instead of 50. Either way I’m prepared to be disappointed.

Your pretty much looking at 1 of 3 things happening.

Say Detriot and Indy(just throwing two random teams out) offer Ayton the Max.

Ayton says I’m signing with Detriot then you have to deal with Detriot. It’s going to be where Ayton wants to sign you can’t force him to go somewhere he doesn’t want to go if he has multiple options.

1 Suns match and sign Ayton

2 Suns sign and trade him to his team of choice

3 that team calls Sarvers bluff and really F’s us over.

Just using Detriot as an example. If I’m Detriot and I offer him the max and I’ve been watching the Suns very publicly say they don’t want to give Ayton the max for two years now why wouldn’t I call Sarvers bluff.

At the end of the day it’s Sarver who decides how much is going to spent especially with this team being a luxury tax team.

They aren’t obligated to send us back this amazing package. It’s kind of a take it or leave it situation. That’s why these trades are so lopsided

You either take what they offer, Sign Ayton to the max or just lose him outright.

 

[GatorAZ]

Your pretty much looking at 1 of 3 things happening.

Say Detriot and Indy(just throwing two random teams out) offer Ayton the Max.

Ayton says I’m signing with Detriot then you have to deal with Detriot. It’s going to be where Ayton wants to sign you can’t force him to go somewhere he doesn’t want to go if he has multiple options.

1 Suns match and sign Ayton

2 Suns sign and trade him to his team of choice

3 that team calls Sarvers bluff and really F’s us over.

Just using Detriot as an example. If I’m Detriot and I offer him the max and I’ve been watching the Suns very publicly say they don’t want to give Ayton the max for two years now why wouldn’t I call Sarvers bluff.

At the end of the day it’s Sarver who decides how much is going to spent especially with this team being a luxury tax team.

They aren’t obligated to send us back this amazing package. It’s kind of a take it or leave it situation. That’s why these trades are so lopsided

You either take what they offer, Sign Ayton to the max or just lose him outright.

I think an experienced agent like Bill Duffy would know one way or another regarding the bluff. If he knows the Suns will match he probably wouldn’t let Ayton sign an offer-sheet. Joe’s agent did the same thing.

Letting him go for nothing would be a “take our franchise Seattle” type reaction.

 

[DJ Tabooh]

Ok incoming hot trade idea lol but would you all be in favor of a possible DA sign and trade to Boston for Marcus Smart and Robert Williams?

The salaries I believe are workable and we’d have a PGOF in Smart who, although isn’t the best decision maker will make up for it on the defensive end and Rob is a lob threat and awesome defender also. I think Boston says no to the deal but curious to hear thoughts?

 

[Joe Mama]

Ok incoming hot trade idea lol but would you all be in favor of a possible DA sign and trade to Boston for Marcus Smart and Robert Williams?

The salaries I believe are workable and we’d have a PGOF in Smart who, although isn’t the best decision maker will make up for it on the defensive end and Rob is a lob threat and awesome defender also. I think Boston says no to the deal but curious to hear thoughts?

The Boston Celtics are in the finals right now and looking great with Robert Williams playing injured. Why would they make this deal?

Regarding us matching an offer, the only thing that came out from the Phoenix Suns about those negotiations was that they didn't want that final year. Can other teams sign him to that 5 year deal? I thought they were limited to 4 years, but I admit it when you don't know the CBA as well as I did 20 years ago.

Joe

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Robinson, Yao Ming, Mourning and Embid all came into the league 2 to 4 years older than DA. That's a lot of dev time. Hakeem was older by a year a well.
He will never be as good as most of those guys but he not far off. Suns have never had a better center and probably wont again.
If you do compare the numbers he really isn't to far off from some of the best to do it.
Yes we expect more from him as a number 1 pick. But I haven't heard you or anyone give 1 single example of a trade that would make us better and or is even possible.
If he stays fine if he leaves fine I'm not gonna be here crying about it.
I still support the team

You haven’t heard of a trade from me because I’m not in favor of a trade. He’s the best center we’ve ever had. He’s still not close to any of those guys. And talking about their age when they came into the league is meaningless now that we’ve completed his fourth season in the league. We aren’t comparing rookie seasons anymore. We can put that argument to bed.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Muggz, when we lose Ayton for probably the garbage we'll get in return which will probably be another 205 pound 3 point shooting small forward who again like all our other forwards don't rebound this Ouchie Z Clown will be happy but I'm sure his negatively will continue on this board. Ayton had a recruiter as a college coach not a legimate coach in Sean Miller and with only 1 year of at that and that was his choice. He came to Suns again no great mentor or coach in place. The player's development is needed by the team & player by work they put in. Robinson wasn't a 19 raw with potential talent his rookie year comming into the league instead he was a 24 year Naval serviceman. Mourning had what 4 years of college experience. Embid only went 1 year to U of Kansas but was injured more often early in his career and it looked like he was going to be a bust but he got it together and is a top notch NBA Center now. It sometimes just takes Time, Work & Patience I'm just saying. GO SUNS!!!

Lol. I have consistently stated we should not trade Ayton. Maybe try to make an accurate statement? I’m just not an Ayton jock-sniffer and can objectively view his shortcomings alongside his strengths.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Bill Duffy and Jake Fischer must have a text chain longer than this thread. He’s thrown out just about every team that could realistically acquire him. Maybe he’s right.

If Jones is smart he’s looking for a third team that could take Capela. Maybe OKC would take him for nothing because they need salary on their books to reach the cap floor and Capela isn’t a scrub. Atlanta sends us Collins for Ayton. The Hawks would need to take back roughly $30m.

Suns receive: Collins
Thunder receive: Capela
Hawks receive: Ayton, Craig, Favors

Why wouldn’t we want capella to replace ayton in that scenario?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It’s not even really a question who’s in control in a sign and trade. The player is

Go back and look at the history of sign and trades they are ridiculously lopsided for a reason. The team trading away the player has never once won the trade.

I’d kinda say the Pels are likely to win the Davis trade long term. Yes the lakers won a championship but Davis looks like he will never be healthy and the Pels ended up with a stud in ingram, jaxson Hayes with one of three first rounders, McCollum and nance jr with hart trade and they still have one more first round pick remaining.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Your pretty much looking at 1 of 3 things happening.

Say Detriot and Indy(just throwing two random teams out) offer Ayton the Max.

Ayton says I’m signing with Detriot then you have to deal with Detriot. It’s going to be where Ayton wants to sign you can’t force him to go somewhere he doesn’t want to go if he has multiple options.

1 Suns match and sign Ayton

2 Suns sign and trade him to his team of choice

3 that team calls Sarvers bluff and really F’s us over.

Just using Detriot as an example. If I’m Detriot and I offer him the max and I’ve been watching the Suns very publicly say they don’t want to give Ayton the max for two years now why wouldn’t I call Sarvers bluff.

At the end of the day it’s Sarver who decides how much is going to spent especially with this team being a luxury tax team.

They aren’t obligated to send us back this amazing package. It’s kind of a take it or leave it situation. That’s why these trades are so lopsided

You either take what they offer, Sign Ayton to the max or just lose him outright.

You could match and then trade him at a later date where he’s lost all leverage. That’s the fourth option.

 

[Big Al]

Lol. I have consistently stated we should not trade Ayton. Maybe try to make an accurate statement? I’m just not an Ayton jock-sniffer and can objectively view his shortcomings alongside his strengths.

OuchieZClown. You have your views & I have mine so let's just leave it there and be done. You understand? No body is as you say jock-sniffing just discussing NBA basketball & being civil about it!

 

[Hoop Head]

Ok incoming hot trade idea lol but would you all be in favor of a possible DA sign and trade to Boston for Marcus Smart and Robert Williams?

The salaries I believe are workable and we’d have a PGOF in Smart who, although isn’t the best decision maker will make up for it on the defensive end and Rob is a lob threat and awesome defender also. I think Boston says no to the deal but curious to hear thoughts?

That doesn't make any sense for Boston, even if they don't win the title. Why would they trade the 1st team All Defense PG and the Center from the 2nd All Defense team for Ayton? Smart won Defensive Player of the Year and Williams finished 7th voting, but would have likely finished higher had he not gotten injured.

Maybe get Ja from Memphis instead? We could send them Cam Payne and Saric to make salaries work. We'd have to max out Ja but that shouldn't be an issue with Paul coming off the books soon.

 

[Proximo]

Your pretty much looking at 1 of 3 things happening.

Say Detriot and Indy(just throwing two random teams out) offer Ayton the Max.

Ayton says I’m signing with Detriot then you have to deal with Detriot. It’s going to be where Ayton wants to sign you can’t force him to go somewhere he doesn’t want to go if he has multiple options.

1 Suns match and sign Ayton

2 Suns sign and trade him to his team of choice

3 that team calls Sarvers bluff and really F’s us over.

Just using Detriot as an example. If I’m Detriot and I offer him the max and I’ve been watching the Suns very publicly say they don’t want to give Ayton the max for two years now why wouldn’t I call Sarvers bluff.

At the end of the day it’s Sarver who decides how much is going to spent especially with this team being a luxury tax team.

They aren’t obligated to send us back this amazing package. It’s kind of a take it or leave it situation. That’s why these trades are so lopsided

You either take what they offer, Sign Ayton to the max or just lose him outright.

Suns have never said they had a problem with giving Ayton a 4 year max deal that any other team can offer him - in fact they offered that to him last season. It's Ayton that is demanding more, but he has zero leverage to get it.

The reason Suns don't want to give him a full max is pretty obvious, he isn't worth it, and they don't have to give it to him to keep control of him.

There is no way the Suns can be F'd over, unless they F themselves over by not giving him the restricted max deal.

I suppose we could get into a Ben Simmons like situation, but even they did ok, just like we will - young talented players have a lot of value in the NBA.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

OuchieZClown. You have your views & I have mine so let's just leave it there and be done. You understand?

Lol. You were the one coming at me, buddy. I never stated your name anywhere. I’m just having a conversation on a suns board about suns players.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Suns have never said they had a problem with giving Ayton a 4 year max deal that any other team can offer him - in fact they offered that to him last season. It's Ayton that is demanding more, but he has zero leverage to get it.

The reason Suns don't want to give him a full max is pretty obvious, he isn't worth it, and they don't have to give it to him to keep control of him.

There is no way the Suns can be F'd over, unless they F themselves over by not giving him the restricted max deal.

I suppose we could get into a Ben Simmons like situation, but even they did ok, just like we will - young talented players have a lot of value in the NBA.

The Simmons deal is an interesting one for a point of comparison. Obviously he and aytin are completely different scenarios. But which has more tha value? The young center who looks like it’s possible he doesn’t have the dawg to max out his potential or the one-time all-star who has a mental breakdown/back issues and has, more or less, sat out a season?

 

[Big Al]

Lol. You were the one coming at me, buddy. I never stated your name anywhere. I’m just having a conversation on a suns board about suns players.

Then no harm no foul.

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Muggz, when we lose Ayton for probably the garbage we'll get in return which will probably be another 205 pound 3 point shooting small forward who again like all our other forwards don't rebound this Ouchie Z Clown will be happy but I'm sure his negatively will continue on this board. Ayton had a recruiter as a college coach not a legimate coach in Sean Miller and with only 1 year of at that and that was his choice. He came to Suns again no great mentor or coach in place. The player's development is needed by the team & player by work they put in. Robinson wasn't a 19 raw with potential talent his rookie year comming into the league instead he was a 24 year Naval serviceman. Mourning had what 4 years of college experience. Embid only went 1 year to U of Kansas but was injured more often early in his career and it looked like he was going to be a bust but he got it together and is a top notch NBA Center now. It sometimes just takes Time, Work & Patience I'm just saying. GO SUNS!!!

OuchieZClown. You have your views & I have mine so let's just leave it there and be done. You understand? No body is as you say jock-sniffing just discussing NBA basketball & being civil about it!

Maybe don't call a poster out by name if you're not looking for a response?