A Very Good Question

[Chopper0080]

Trading for current Wilson would’ve been a stagnant move regardless.

I think that is debatable. I don't think much of Pete and how he wants the offense run and how he allocates personnel. He just hasn't adapted to how the NFL has changed IMO. I still believe Russ is one of the best QBs in the NFL. I just think the Seahawks make a similar mistake to AZ in thinking you don't have to have a good offensive line to support him.

Why I bring up those players is because I do believe we make things harder on ourselves by having a young QB who is learning along with a young HC who is learning. Neither of them are probably doing what or as much as they should to help the other just out of ignorance. As much of a pain in the ass Rodgers has been in Green Bay, he helps Lafluer a lot. He knows what it takes to win at the NFL level. He knows opposing defenses so he can assist with game planning. He can get in and out of plays to help out his play caller.

 

[Chopper0080]

It is just tough for a young QB to come into an unstable organization and have success. That is why our success has been tied to veteran QBs. They come in knowing what needs to happen and aren't dependent on the inexperienced HC (which is all we have had) to do it.

 

[Chopper0080]

Also, in regards to Vance Joseph. As much as I don't care for him, I think the reason you get rid of him is the disconnect between him and Keim. They just don't seem to be able to get on the same page which has become a huge problem.

 

[TheCardFan]

I think that is debatable.

Is it? We don't have a "win now" roster.

The arguments that could be made IMO are Burrow or Herbert (Watson if he was cleared). Mahomes doesn't count because of his salary and I am just not a huge Josh Allen person. I like him and hope he does well but I am probably not trading Kyler for any other QB in the NFL at this point.

I think we have the best young talent at QB with two more years of reasonable salary and a system that was designed for him.

 

[TheCardFan]

Also, in regards to Vance Joseph. As much as I don't care for him, I think the reason you get rid of him is the disconnect between him and Keim. They just don't seem to be able to get on the same page which has become a huge problem.

I hear you but this defense hasn't allowed many points (last 3 weeks have been bad).

Top 10 defenses so far in allowing points - we are 5th best.

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[DVontel]

I think that is debatable. I don't think much of Pete and how he wants the offense run and how he allocates personnel. He just hasn't adapted to how the NFL has changed IMO. I still believe Russ is one of the best QBs in the NFL. I just think the Seahawks make a similar mistake to AZ in thinking you don't have to have a good offensive line to support him.

Why I bring up those players is because I do believe we make things harder on ourselves by having a young QB who is learning along with a young HC who is learning. Neither of them are probably doing what or as much as they should to help the other just out of ignorance. As much of a pain in the ass Rodgers has been in Green Bay, he helps Lafluer a lot. He knows what it takes to win at the NFL level. He knows opposing defenses so he can assist with game planning. He can get in and out of plays to help out his play caller.

I initially thought this, but Pete isn’t the reason Russ continually misses layups or runs into sacks nonstop. He’s been fairly pedestrian since last year & you can make an argument he’s the 3rd best QB in this division or at least has been playing like it. He has the same faults Kyler has, but without the athleticism to get out of it anymore.

We shouldn’t even talk about Watson until he steps on the field for a NFL team again. He’s moot.

 

[kerouac9]

I initially thought this, but Pete isn’t the reason Russ continually misses layups or runs into sacks nonstop. He’s been fairly pedestrian since last year & you can make an argument he’s the 3rd best QB in this division or at least has been playing like it. He has the same faults Kyler has, but without the athleticism to get out of it anymore.

We shouldn’t even talk about Watson until he steps on the field for a NFL team again. He’s moot.

The Seahawks brought in a McVay disciple from Green Bay to install the offense that Russ wanted and instead Russ is on his same ol’ BS. Maybe he’s a really good system QB after all?

 

[Stout]

We can't pretend that we are not a success starved franchise. We were a 3 win team when we hired Kliff and Kyler. We have won 5 games, then 8 games and are currently at 10 wins. Kliff is not getting fired unless something dramatic happens and having a history of losing games in the second half of the season is just not enough. It will definitely facilitate a discussion, but likely little more.

I get that most are frustrated and some feel that Kliff needs to go, but outside of just saying it is the right thing to do, it is a silly discussion. It just isn't going to happen.

I had to check myself with this regarding trading/moving on from Kyler. I may think Rodger or Wilson or Watson or whomever is a better option due to some concerns with Kyler, but I also need to be realistic that it is just not going to happen so discussing it outside of darkside or trade Kyler threads is silly.

Oh, I think you're right in that he isn't going, and we're likely chatting about nothing, really. But, hey, it's a message board. What else are we going to do?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

We can't pretend that we are not a success starved franchise. We were a 3 win team when we hired Kliff and Kyler. We have won 5 games, then 8 games and are currently at 10 wins. Kliff is not getting fired unless something dramatic happens and having a history of losing games in the second half of the season is just not enough. It will definitely facilitate a discussion, but likely little more.

I get that most are frustrated and some feel that Kliff needs to go, but outside of just saying it is the right thing to do, it is a silly discussion. It just isn't going to happen.

I had to check myself with this regarding trading/moving on from Kyler. I may think Rodger or Wilson or Watson or whomever is a better option due to some concerns with Kyler, but I also need to be realistic that it is just not going to happen so discussing it outside of darkside or trade Kyler threads is silly.

Something dramatic happens? Like starting our 7-0, and then going to the playoffs on a 5 game losing streak? Having teams regress the last two years instead of improving? Making the same procedural/penalty errors?

If we lose out and then flame out in the first round, I don't know how he's retained. Do people think he'll somehow become a better coach?

I just don't know how anyone after watching KK in operation for 3 years can say that they think he's ever going to be a top head coach.
Once things start getting tough, he folds, and his teams lose. The lack of discipline and focus has been evident from the beginning, and the little mistakes are what KILLS this team. In the playoffs against all good teams, our margin for error becomes even less, and with more time to gameplan I don't see that working in our favor.


You make think it's silly, but if we flame out as expected, I guarantee there will be plenty of people who want KK gone. If we're forced to stomach another year of this crap next year, I guarantee you'll be finding this talk to be considerably less silly.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Something dramatic happens? Like starting our 7-0, and then going to the playoffs on a 5 game losing streak? Having teams regress the last two years instead of improving? Making the same procedural/penalty errors?

If we lose out and then flame out in the first round, I don't know how he's retained. Do people think he'll somehow become a better coach?

I just don't know how anyone after watching KK in operation for 3 years can say that they think he's ever going to be a top head coach.
Once things start getting tough, he folds, and his teams lose. The lack of discipline and focus has been evident from the beginning, and the little mistakes are what KILLS this team. In the playoffs against all good teams, our margin for error becomes even less, and with more time to gameplan I don't see that working in our favor.


You make think it's silly, but if we flame out as expected, I guarantee there will be plenty of people who want KK gone. If we're forced to stomach another year of this crap next year, I guarantee you'll be finding this talk to be considerably less silly.

While I don't necessarily disagree with this, how often do playoff ready teams fire their coach, and then the new coach instantly makes the team better? I'm not sure I can think of a specific example. New coaches will want to bring in new staff and players, to which there is a transition period. The Cards can't afford that right now. Their best chance of success is to win during Kyler's rookie deal. We can't do that IMO with a coaching change.

It is almost like we have to hope that KK and KM get better before our window closes.

Bolded point: To be fair, plenty of people never really gave KK a fair shake from the beginning. Posters here have wanted him fired going back to his first year here. He has had the 'shortest rope' of all of our AZ coaches, including ones like McGinnis and Tobin

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

While I don't necessarily disagree with this, how often do playoff ready teams fire their coach, and then the new coach instantly makes the team better? I'm not sure I can think of a specific example. New coaches will want to bring in new staff and players, to which there is a transition period. The Cards can't afford that right now. Their best chance of success is to win during Kyler's rookie deal. We can't do that IMO with a coaching change.

It is almost like we have to hope that KK and KM get better before our window closes.

Bolded point: To be fair, plenty of people never really gave KK a fair shake from the beginning. Posters here have wanted him fired going back to his first year here. He has had the 'shortest rope' of all of our AZ coaches, including ones like McGinnis and Tobin

Hmm I think your long term memory isn’t very accurate. I think every first year coach has faced much the same criticism as has kliff. The primary difference being none of those coaches came into the head coach seat having just been fired as a losing college coach. Kliffs ascension is maybe the most unique in the history of the nfl. Has there ever been any coach that had his background awarded the top seat with a pro franchise? In any sport?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Hmm I think your long term memory isn’t very accurate. I think every first year coach has faced much the same criticism as has kliff. The primary difference being none of those coaches came into the head coach seat having just been fired as a losing college coach. Kliffs ascension is maybe the most unique in the history of the nfl. Has there ever been any coach that had his background awarded the top seat with a pro franchise? In any sport?

Possibly.... but I don't think it was that inaccurate either. With that said, I think you are kinda making my point for me. Many people questioned his hire right from the start. I'm not saying these concerns aren't valid. They absolutely are. It has given them those that question Kliff all of the ammunition that they have needed.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Possibly.... but I don't think it was that inaccurate either. With that said, I think you are kinda making my point for me. Many people questioned his hire right from the start. I'm not saying these concerns aren't valid. They absolutely are. It has given them those that question Kliff all of the ammunition that they have needed.

Agree. But my point was, there was a reasonable basis for that skepticism, no?

 

[ajcardfan]

Hmm I think your long term memory isn’t very accurate. I think every first year coach has faced much the same criticism as has kliff. The primary difference being none of those coaches came into the head coach seat having just been fired as a losing college coach. Kliffs ascension is maybe the most unique in the history of the nfl. Has there ever been any coach that had his background awarded the top seat with a pro franchise? In any sport?

It was a unique move for sure.

But winning records in college for coaches, more often than not, meant jack squat. I think college doesn't correlate to the NFL because of recruiting v. Drafting/free agency.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Agree. But my point was, there was a reasonable basis for that skepticism, no?

Of course. Whether you like the guy or don't, he has shown quite a bit of improvement in his tenure.

Not sure this team can afford for him to learn on the job. Also think he kinda deserves the chance. Before he was hired, we were the worst team in the NFL for the first time in our sad, pathetic history. That says a lot considering how bad we were for so long. This team, whether we flame out this year or don't, whether we fire Kliff or not, has a real chance at a bright future. Something that seemed so improbable just a few seasons ago. He deserves quite a bit of credit for that.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

It was a unique move for sure.

But winning records in college for coaches, more often than not, meant jack squat. I think college doesn't correlate to the NFL because of recruiting v. Drafting/free agency.

It needed to be. You could argue most of the status quo coaches that were available at the time, wouldn't have been able to make the turnaround they did as quickly as they did. They made a risky hire that has objectively paid off.

 

[ajcardfan]

It needed to be. You could argue most of the status quo coaches that were available at the time, wouldn't have been able to make the turnaround they did as quickly as they did. They made a risky hire that has objectively paid off.

Correct. This is not a franchise that will blow off playoff berths.

The real reason this season turned was the pregame videos bragging about being the best and putting playoff tickets for home games on sale before we clinched that.

I totally blame the pr and marketing departments.

 

[kerouac9]

Correct. This is not a franchise that will blow off playoff berths.

The real reason this season turned was the pregame videos bragging about being the best and putting playoff tickets for home games on sale before we clinched that.

I totally blame the pr and marketing departments.

I think the league has a rule about putting playoff tickets on sale if you’re close to making the dance.

While I don't necessarily disagree with this, how often do playoff ready teams fire their coach, and then the new coach instantly makes the team better? I'm not sure I can think of a specific example. New coaches will want to bring in new staff and players, to which there is a transition period. The Cards can't afford that right now. Their best chance of success is to win during Kyler's rookie deal. We can't do that IMO with a coaching change.

It is almost like we have to hope that KK and KM get better before our window closes.

Bolded point: To be fair, plenty of people never really gave KK a fair shake from the beginning. Posters here have wanted him fired going back to his first year here. He has had the 'shortest rope' of all of our AZ coaches, including ones like McGinnis and Tobin

Tampa dumped Tony Dungy and Gruden lead them to the Super Bowl the following year.

Green Bay dumped Mike McCarthy and immediately got better.

Cleveland dumped Freddie Kitchens for Stefanski and made the playoffs the next year.

It’s not hard to dig out these names, bro.

 

[TheCardFan]

Tampa dumped Tony Dungy and Gruden lead them to the Super Bowl the following year.

Green Bay dumped Mike McCarthy and immediately got better.

Cleveland dumped Freddie Kitchens for Stefanski and made the playoffs the next year.

It’s not hard to dig out these names, bro.

Not exactly a legit comparison.

Tampa Bay made the playoffs 4/6 years with Dungy and 3 in a row. The issue there was he couldn't get to the Super Bowl. They clearly had the talent.
- We are pre-Dungy right now. Worst team in the league - 3 wins to 5 wins to 10 (with 2 more) wins, and playoffs. If KK can't show improvement next year that is different.

Green Bay is very similar to TB but even less like the Cardinals. McCarthy went to the playoffs 8 years in a row and won the Super Bowl. He fell off the table his last two years and got fired. Again, they clearly had the talent to win.
- Please let us have that kind of problem soon!

Cleveland quickly realized Freddie Kitchens wasn't it after one year. BTW - Stefanski has regressed this year and so has Baker...this team won't come close to 11 wins (2020). Also remember that KK killed Stefanski this year.
- kitchens was more like Wilks than KK for sure.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

It was a unique move for sure.

But winning records in college for coaches, more often than not, meant jack squat. I think college doesn't correlate to the NFL because of recruiting v. Drafting/free agency.

I can’t argue against that particular point. What should translate should be specific things like:

Leadership
Game management
Discipline
Accountability
Game prep
Understanding of the game

Those should be the same at both levels and discernible by a good evaluator.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Of course. Whether you like the guy or don't, he has shown quite a bit of improvement in his tenure.

Not sure this team can afford for him to learn on the job. Also think he kinda deserves the chance. Before he was hired, we were the worst team in the NFL for the first time in our sad, pathetic history. That says a lot considering how bad we were for so long. This team, whether we flame out this year or don't, whether we fire Kliff or not, has a real chance at a bright future. Something that seemed so improbable just a few seasons ago. He deserves quite a bit of credit for that.

Agreed. What really sells me on keeping him . . . for now . . . is his age. Head coach at 42. .500 record. Playoff appearance. IF he continues to grow and doesn’t plateau or lose the team we could be one of those rare teams that has a head coach for a decade+. We’ve never really had that chance.

The downside is if we hitch our wagon to a guy who has hit his ceiling we are (a) wasting prime kyler years; and (b) potentially stunting kylers growth (the latter being my greatest fear).

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I think the league has a rule about putting playoff tickets on sale if you’re close to making the dance.


Tampa dumped Tony Dungy and Gruden lead them to the Super Bowl the following year.

Green Bay dumped Mike McCarthy and immediately got better.

Cleveland dumped Freddie Kitchens for Stefanski and made the playoffs the next year.

It’s not hard to dig out these names, bro.

What TheCardFan said...

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Agreed. What really sells me on keeping him . . . for now . . . is his age. Head coach at 42. .500 record. Playoff appearance. IF he continues to grow and doesn’t plateau or lose the team we could be one of those rare teams that has a head coach for a decade+. We’ve never really had that chance.

The downside is if we hitch our wagon to a guy who has hit his ceiling we are (a) wasting prime kyler years; and (b) potentially stunting kylers growth (the latter being my greatest fear).

So much to agree with here. Even if you don't like Kliff, it is an exciting time to be a Cards fan. The unknown and uncertainty makes this much watch TV.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think the league has a rule about putting playoff tickets on sale if you’re close to making the dance.


Tampa dumped Tony Dungy and Gruden lead them to the Super Bowl the following year.

Green Bay dumped Mike McCarthy and immediately got better.

Cleveland dumped Freddie Kitchens for Stefanski and made the playoffs the next year.

It’s not hard to dig out these names, bro.

Yeah it’s not a crazy thing to see management decide that a coach has gotten a team as far as the coach can take them and replace the coach with the hopes of reaching another level. Those are just a few examples in the nfl. See even more of that in the nba and nhl and mlb.

 

[kerouac9]

What TheCardFan said...

Just because you don’t like the comparison doesn’t make it specifically what you asked.

You asked for playoff-ready teams making a head coaching switch and immediately getting better. I gave you three examples. It happens literally all the time.