Kyrie

[Carolinacacti]

That is a scenario... what I view as more likely is that the Suns end up with a roster with no PG capable of starting and a lineup incapable of defending anyone. IMO it is more likely that letting the current roster grow over the next couple years will yield better returns than trading for an empty stat player like Love and a dude that IMO will never be a starting caliber player in Ntikila.

Slim thought nitikila sucks.........So do I

 

[Phrazbit]

I disagree to considerable extent. In Ulis we have not only a capable starting PG but one that should start ahead of Bledsoe. If Watson starts Bled, no one will question the move but if he starts Ulis, some people will question that - hence Watson will go with Eric. We will have the same crappy offense as last year. Ulis would run the offense much better like he did last year but he'll have much less overall impact if he's on the second unit. Depending on how Watson configures the two lineups, the second unit may be better than the starting unit. If say the second unit is Ulis, Reed, Jackson, Bender/Peters and Williams.

I also think it's possible that shedding Chandler improves Len's play - before we got Chandler, Len had a positive impact on the team, and he's regressed since Tyson came. Yeah that means Len has a delicate psyche but if has it him to play well, I'd like to give him every chance. I haven't noticed Chandler doing much effective tutoring so far, but he does stabilize the defense despite not protecting the rim as in days of yore.

I agree that Ntilikina ia not a great prospect though I do like his defensive intensity and he might be a good backup wing after a couple of years. A PG is a long shot because he's not that quick. He moves fast enough after a few strides and he has nice long strides. I do think he'll be capable of handling the ball on the break, and that's a plus.

Ulis was a nice find in the 2nd round, I have hopes for him as an NBA player. However... we were waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better on offense with Bledsoe out there than we were with Ulis, the comparison isn't even close. I think sometimes people see the assist stat and decide its the be-all end-all for how a PG is running the offense. We scored more points on a higher shooting percentage as a team with Bledsoe out there.

Our offense was not the problem last season. What was crap was our defense, we couldn't stop anyone. Swapping Bledsoe for Ulis makes us worse across the board. Maybe in a few years the story will be different but I don't expect it will be next season and it certainly was not remotely true last season.

As for Len, he has been pretty consistent as a negative impact his entire career. He is a travesty as an offensive player and while he can defend the rim if he is right there in position, he is often out of position and cannot cover anyone on switches. Len is playing in the wrong decade. Unless the league changes rules to bring back 90s era basketball then I don't think he will ever be useful.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Bledsoe
Chandler
Warren

For

Love
Nklintinka

I vote no unless we can turn love into someone else.

We get a pick as well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yeah, that's pretty bad for the Suns. I'd be very surprised if it happened.

yeah... not on board with that trade.

 

[Raliu]

Kyrie, just like Marbury and Bledsoe, is the "attacking basket" PG, Suns can never make good use of such kind of PG, no matter how good their skill/strength are.

As a matter of fact, I don't believe any team can win conference finals with a PG who takes most of ball control and likes to attach basket.

 

[Finito]

Kyrie, just like Marbury and Bledsoe, is the "attacking basket" PG, Suns can never make good use of such kind of PG, no matter how good their skill/strength are.

As a matter of fact, I don't believe any team can win conference finals with a PG who takes most of ball control and likes to attach basket.

Uh didn't cleveland just win the conference finals with an attacking PG?

Do you think Steph Curry is a score first PG or an old school pass first PG? Yup he's a score first PG.

That old school Jason Kidd pass first point guard is a thing of the past just like that lumbering 7 footer who lives in the paint.

Best PG in basketball right now Curry, Irving, Westbrook, Harden, Paul, Wall, Lillard, IT. Only Paul would be considered pass first.

 

[SirStefan32]

Ulis was a nice find in the 2nd round, I have hopes for him as an NBA player. However... we were waaaaaaaaaaaaaay better on offense with Bledsoe out there than we were with Ulis, the comparison isn't even close. I think sometimes people see the assist stat and decide its the be-all end-all for how a PG is running the offense. We scored more points on a higher shooting percentage as a team with Bledsoe out there.

Our offense was not the problem last season. What was crap was our defense, we couldn't stop anyone. Swapping Bledsoe for Ulis makes us worse across the board. Maybe in a few years the story will be different but I don't expect it will be next season and it certainly was not remotely true last season.

As for Len, he has been pretty consistent as a negative impact his entire career. He is a travesty as an offensive player and while he can defend the rim if he is right there in position, he is often out of position and cannot cover anyone on switches. Len is playing in the wrong decade. Unless the league changes rules to bring back 90s era basketball then I don't think he will ever be useful.

That was not my perception. I suppose I could be wrong, but the offense looked much more fluid and smooth with Ulis running the show. I am on record saying that Ulis is just not big enough to be a good starter in the NBA (at least on a successful team), but I enjoyed watching the Suns with Ulis and no Bledsoe or Knight far more, at least on offense.

 

[Mainstreet]

That was not my perception. I suppose I could be wrong, but the offense looked much more fluid and smooth with Ulis running the show. I am on record saying that Ulis is just not big enough to be a good starter in the NBA (at least on a successful team), but I enjoyed watching the Suns with Ulis and no Bledsoe or Knight far more, at least on offense.

Ulis is oriented towards running the Suns offense as a floor general. I especially like his pass first mentality. He was especially impressive because he was only a rookie. Who is to say how good Ulis will be in a few years. Sure he has some defensive limitations because of his height but IT has gone a long way with the same issues.

However, all this said, Bledsoe is the better PG now because of his overall skills both offensively and defensively.

I will still look forward to Ulis coming off the bench. I like team basketball first.

It would not surprise me Ulis could be a starter someday.

 

[Phrazbit]

That was not my perception. I suppose I could be wrong, but the offense looked much more fluid and smooth with Ulis running the show. I am on record saying that Ulis is just not big enough to be a good starter in the NBA (at least on a successful team), but I enjoyed watching the Suns with Ulis and no Bledsoe or Knight far more, at least on offense.

We scored 110 per 100 possessions with Bledsoe in the game and a 50% effective fg%, with Ulis in it dropped to 106 and 48%. Those are not small margins.

I'm not killing Ulis, I like the kid, but Bledsoe is waaaaaaaaaaaay superior on both ends right now.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

We scored 110 per 100 possessions with Bledsoe in the game and a 50% effective fg%, with Ulis in it dropped to 106 and 48%. Those are not small margins.

I'm not killing Ulis, I like the kid, but Bledsoe is waaaaaaaaaaaay superior on both ends right now.

Well Suns were also tanking once Ullus started getting heavy minutes.

I love Ullis and have argued he can be a great starting point guard but starting him over Bledsoe is insulting...one of the reasons why bled needs to be moved

 

[SirStefan32]

We scored 110 per 100 possessions with Bledsoe in the game and a 50% effective fg%, with Ulis in it dropped to 106 and 48%. Those are not small margins.

I'm not killing Ulis, I like the kid, but Bledsoe is waaaaaaaaaaaay superior on both ends right now.

I am not sure how those stats are measured. Ulis would play with a second unit, so obviously they wouldn't score as well as the starters, for example. At the end of the season, the team was also missing 21 points per game from Bledsoe, they were also missing Chandler, who doesn;t score much, but scores at some insane percentage (without looking it up, I'm gonna say his FG% is around 65-70%. Warren wasn't quite the same player he was early in the season when he was dropping 20-ish points per game very efficiently. Knight and Bender, terrible as they were, were also missing. Ulis had very little to work with.

Also, I don't think anyone in their mind is arguing that Ulis is a better player than Bledsoe. I won't speak for anyone else, but I am saying that Ulis does a better job of distributing the ball and running the offense. Point guard is a unique position.

Now, do I want Ulis as the PG of the future? Probably not. Would I trade Bledsoe in favor of playing Ulis more? Definitely not- there would need to be additional reasons. Is Bledsoe the best player on the roster? Probably. At worst, he is the second best player on the team. He is probably the most complete player on the team. He doesn't do a good job running the offense, though. Ulis does that one thing better, no matter how we try to spin these advanced stats that can say anything we want them to say. He is a natural floor general. Bledsoe is not.

 

[Phrazbit]

I am not sure how those stats are measured. Ulis would play with a second unit, so obviously they wouldn't score as well as the starters, for example. At the end of the season, the team was also missing 21 points per game from Bledsoe, they were also missing Chandler, who doesn;t score much, but scores at some insane percentage (without looking it up, I'm gonna say his FG% is around 65-70%. Warren wasn't quite the same player he was early in the season when he was dropping 20-ish points per game very efficiently. Knight and Bender, terrible as they were, were also missing. Ulis had very little to work with.

Also, I don't think anyone in their mind is arguing that Ulis is a better player than Bledsoe. I won't speak for anyone else, but I am saying that Ulis does a better job of distributing the ball and running the offense. Point guard is a unique position.

Now, do I want Ulis as the PG of the future? Probably not. Would I trade Bledsoe in favor of playing Ulis more? Definitely not- there would need to be additional reasons. Is Bledsoe the best player on the roster? Probably. At worst, he is the second best player on the team. He is probably the most complete player on the team. He doesn't do a good job running the offense, though. Ulis does that one thing better, no matter how we try to spin these advanced stats that can say anything we want them to say. He is a natural floor general. Bledsoe is not.

I don't think he does, not yet at least. The stats don't make any case for Ulis running the offense better and it isn't even close. He might be more of a "floor general" but it doesn't mean the offense is improved with him in the game.

Again, it might get there eventually, you might like the ascetics of Ulis running the point more, but it is not near as effective and the gap between the stats is so large that simply placing it on a couple players being out or preforming differently does not add up.

And here is a stat that illustrates it perfectly:

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!?PlayerID=1626164&VsPlayerID=1627755

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!?PlayerID=1626164&VsPlayerID=202339

Booker is the kind of guy who should benefit the most by playing with the type of player Ulis gives the perception of being... yet Booker's shooting percentage drops by 2.5%, his 3pt percentage drops by a whooping 9% when he is paired with Ulis. With Bledsoe alongside him he shot a very efficient 45% from 2 and 40% from 3, without Bledsoe those numbers plummet to 38 and 28%.

The stat disparity is HUUUUGE. Bledsoe might not be as slick of a passer but he is waaaaaaay more effective offensively as is the team.

 

[Hoop Head]

I think the reason Booker's shooting dropped with Ulis compared to Bledsoe is because he had to shoot much more, making up for the 20 points a game that Bledsoe wasn't there to score.

 

[Raze]

Uh didn't cleveland just win the conference finals with an attacking PG?

Do you think Steph Curry is a score first PG or an old school pass first PG? Yup he's a score first PG.

That old school Jason Kidd pass first point guard is a thing of the past just like that lumbering 7 footer who lives in the paint.

Best PG in basketball right now Curry, Irving, Westbrook, Harden, Paul, Wall, Lillard, IT. Only Paul would be considered pass first.

To be more accurate, Cleveland just won the conference finals with arguably the greatest player in NBA history while in his prime. The attacking PG contributed, but no one is saying he's the reason they won the conference finals. Which is probably why he wants to leave. He wants everyone talking about him.

Steph Curry is a closer example. However, he is better at distributing the ball or running the offense than Kyrie. He also buys into the defensive scheme, something Kyrie seems above doing. But I agree, he's more score first than pass first. (As he should be)

I would also argue that a pass first PG was just taken #2 in the draft. Often compared to Kidd.

But your point is valid: traditional PGs and Cs are almost extinct.

I would argue that Irving, Westbrook, Harden, and IT aren't PGs. They are OGs who can pass.

A traditional PG gets everyone involved. Assists come in the flow of an offense, not exclusively while attacking the lanes. Nash might be one of the best ever. It's an insult to true PGs to say guys like Parker or even Westbrook are PGs. They may be great at what they do, but they don't get everyone involved. They just handle most of the dribbling duties. They're OGs. OGs are Gs who can attack the rim and maybe hit from outside. They can pass, but it's not their primary goal. I'd say nearly 80% of today's PGs are actually just OGs. SGs hit from outside and are minimal passers.

PG: Chris Paul
OG: Kyrie Irving, Harden, Westbrook, IT...
SG: Klay Thompson

As for Cs, I would argue that Chriss, Bender, Kevin Love, and Horford aren't Cs. They are the tallest F on the floor.

The Center is the center of the Defense. He is the rim protector. He is the cleaner of boards. The paint is his home. No one comes into his house without paying a price. There are still some good traditional Cs out there: Gobert, Jordan, Whiteside, and Cousins were top 10 in Rebounds and Blocks. (Cousins departing from the traditional not shooting 3's mold). I'd say a good traditional Center has to be north of 10 rebounds and 2 blocks per game. Only Gobert and Whiteside did that last year. But the C who could do all that and score north of 20 points in the paint are extinct. (Olajuwon, Ewing, Chamberlain, Duncan etc.)

(There is an entire generation of NBA fans today that have no idea what Hakeem Olajuwon or Charles Barkley are doing with their back to the basket in those highlight reels. It's disgusting to see agile low post scoring nearly extinct.)

 

[Phrazbit]

I think the reason Booker's shooting dropped with Ulis compared to Bledsoe is because he had to shoot much more, making up for the 20 points a game that Bledsoe wasn't there to score.

Again... that is part of the offense as a whole being better with Bledsoe. He is good and it makes the other players jobs easier. He might not get big assist numbers, but he isn't selfish. Bledsoe has shown more willingness to divert to other players on offense than any of the stand out guards we've had since Nash.

 

[Hoop Head]

I've never been in the Anti-Bledsoe camp but was never a big fan of his. The longer this potential trade is drawn out though the more I've grown to appreciate Bledsoe and what he brings to the table. I don't think we should spend a crazy amount to resign him in two years or consider him untouchable but I'm not sold in a swap for Kyrie straight up, knowing it will take other assets to get that done I'm against it.

I like some of the potential deals with us getting someone younger in return, not named Kyrie, but I think those who dislike Bledsoe will hate Kyrie running this team. I agree with @Phrazbit in regards to Bledsoe not being a selfish player. He's never complained about touches or anything really in his time here. He's deferred to Dragic, IT, Knight, and Booker over his 4 years in Phoenix so far also. Meanwhile Kyrie has trouble deferring to Lebron even though Lebron is just as likely to find you again on offense in position to score than dribble the clock down and throw up a bad shot. Kyrie is more of an Allen Iverson type of PG who will dribble the air out of the ball each possession if he could and I can't see a player like him helping the development of our young core.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Agreed with the above that I like Bledsoe, hes a great player and seems to br a great teamate. I also agree Kyrie is an amazing scorer but likely not a great floor general. Its also worth noting Kyries defense is atrocious.

BUT smart thing is to move Bledsoe hopefully not for Kyrie...

 

[Phrazbit]

Agreed with the above that I like Bledsoe, hes a great player and seems to br a great teamate. I also agree Kyrie is an amazing scorer but likely not a great floor general. Its also worth noting Kyries defense is atrocious.

BUT smart thing is to move Bledsoe hopefully not for Kyrie...

I'm fine with moving Bledsoe for the right price, I just don't think that the floated Knicks/Cavs/Suns trades (that are not Porzingis pipe dreams) are beneficial.

Really wish the Knicks had taken Dennis Smith, that is a trade I would have been down for.

 

[Finito]

To be more accurate, Cleveland just won the conference finals with arguably the greatest player in NBA history while in his prime. The attacking PG contributed, but no one is saying he's the reason they won the conference finals. Which is probably why he wants to leave. He wants everyone talking about him.

Steph Curry is a closer example. However, he is better at distributing the ball or running the offense than Kyrie. He also buys into the defensive scheme, something Kyrie seems above doing. But I agree, he's more score first than pass first. (As he should be)

I would also argue that a pass first PG was just taken #2 in the draft. Often compared to Kidd.

But your point is valid: traditional PGs and Cs are almost extinct.

I would argue that Irving, Westbrook, Harden, and IT aren't PGs. They are OGs who can pass.

A traditional PG gets everyone involved. Assists come in the flow of an offense, not exclusively while attacking the lanes. Nash might be one of the best ever. It's an insult to true PGs to say guys like Parker or even Westbrook are PGs. They may be great at what they do, but they don't get everyone involved. They just handle most of the dribbling duties. They're OGs. OGs are Gs who can attack the rim and maybe hit from outside. They can pass, but it's not their primary goal. I'd say nearly 80% of today's PGs are actually just OGs. SGs hit from outside and are minimal passers.

PG: Chris Paul
OG: Kyrie Irving, Harden, Westbrook, IT...
SG: Klay Thompson

As for Cs, I would argue that Chriss, Bender, Kevin Love, and Horford aren't Cs. They are the tallest F on the floor.

The Center is the center of the Defense. He is the rim protector. He is the cleaner of boards. The paint is his home. No one comes into his house without paying a price. There are still some good traditional Cs out there: Gobert, Jordan, Whiteside, and Cousins were top 10 in Rebounds and Blocks. (Cousins departing from the traditional not shooting 3's mold). I'd say a good traditional Center has to be north of 10 rebounds and 2 blocks per game. Only Gobert and Whiteside did that last year. But the C who could do all that and score north of 20 points in the paint are extinct. (Olajuwon, Ewing, Chamberlain, Duncan etc.)

(There is an entire generation of NBA fans today that have no idea what Hakeem Olajuwon or Charles Barkley are doing with their back to the basket in those highlight reels. It's disgusting to see agile low post scoring nearly extinct.)

It's the evolution of the game it's positionless basketball.

Curry does not buy into defense come on now that guy is horrible on D.

Kyrie played amazing the last two years all playoffs long and when it came time to hit the big shots it's was him not lebron he was. Very big reason for there success.

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't think he does, not yet at least. The stats don't make any case for Ulis running the offense better and it isn't even close. He might be more of a "floor general" but it doesn't mean the offense is improved with him in the game.

Again, it might get there eventually, you might like the ascetics of Ulis running the point more, but it is not near as effective and the gap between the stats is so large that simply placing it on a couple players being out or preforming differently does not add up.

And here is a stat that illustrates it perfectly:

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!?PlayerID=1626164&VsPlayerID=1627755

http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!?PlayerID=1626164&VsPlayerID=202339

Booker is the kind of guy who should benefit the most by playing with the type of player Ulis gives the perception of being... yet Booker's shooting percentage drops by 2.5%, his 3pt percentage drops by a whooping 9% when he is paired with Ulis. With Bledsoe alongside him he shot a very efficient 45% from 2 and 40% from 3, without Bledsoe those numbers plummet to 38 and 28%.

The stat disparity is HUUUUGE. Bledsoe might not be as slick of a passer but he is waaaaaaay more effective offensively as is the team.

But that's not a good comparison. Majority of Booker's minutes with Ulis were in the last 10-15 games. With other offensive threats getting "strategic rest", defenses were able to focus on Booker more. At the end of the season, a player who is in his second season is probably going to be a little tired and not perform quite as well.

I appreciate advanced stats, but you have to look at the context of what stats are telling you. There was a big difference between the first part of the season and the second part of the season, especially the last 10-15 games or so.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm fine with moving Bledsoe for the right price, I just don't think that the floated Knicks/Cavs/Suns trades (that are not Porzingis pipe dreams) are beneficial.

Really wish the Knicks had taken Dennis Smith, that is a trade I would have been down for.

I agree. Let's not move players for the sake of moving them.

 

[Chaplin]

Well Suns were also tanking once Ullus started getting heavy minutes.

I love Ullis and have argued he can be a great starting point guard but starting him over Bledsoe is insulting...one of the reasons why bled needs to be moved

Wait, are you saying Ulis himself played below his ability because the Suns were "tanking"? When Ulis played, he played to win, just like everyone else on the floor.

The fact that we appeared to be tanking reflects more on the skill level of the players we put on the floor, including Ulis (and especially coaching). I like Ulis, don't get me wrong. But there's no way he deliberately played below his ability in order to lose games.

 

[NashDishesDimes]

Wait, are you saying Ulis himself played below his ability because the Suns were "tanking"? When Ulis played, he played to win, just like everyone else on the floor.

The fact that we appeared to be tanking reflects more on the skill level of the players we put on the floor, including Ulis (and especially coaching). I like Ulis, don't get me wrong. But there's no way he deliberately played below his ability in order to lose games.

No what im saying is that he didnt have the help, they were suiting up like 6 guys and derrick jones jr was starting, that is how bad it got.

 

[leclerc]

I'm really torn on this, but here are my thoughts:

Trade for Kyrie only if the price is right.

He might be a two year rental, similar to what we have in Bledsoe, a pretty good PG that does not elevate the team like Dame, Westbrook and Curry does.

If he turns out to bring wins though, he still might walk after two years, so we could just as well keep Bledsoe and for instance Warren and the draft pick (whatever fillers in the trade).

Anyhow we could get a top PG by other means. Maybe in the next draft or a different trade or God willing signing a top free agent. Besides Ulis had a pretty good rookie season so who knows how good he will be in two years (yes I will say it) despite his physical shortcomings.

 

[overseascardfan]

I'm fine with moving Bledsoe for the right price, I just don't think that the floated Knicks/Cavs/Suns trades (that are not Porzingis pipe dreams) are beneficial.

Really wish the Knicks had taken Dennis Smith, that is a trade I would have been down for.

Me too. Had my hopes up high with NY trade rumors but then I realized NY passed on him and he was scooped up by DAL with the very next pick.