Suns @ Bobcats 11/7/12 game thread.

AzStevenCal

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I'm surprised nobody here is talking about the 2 on 1 break in the 4th quarter where Tucker wouldn't give up the ball to Dragic for a wide open layup. Dragic reamed him afterward and then for the rest of the game, Tucker wouldn't high-five Dragic after free throws.

The dude needs to listen up or he'll be out of the league again before he can blink. I'm also not too happy about Beasley and Brown blowing off Dragic when calling for the ball to bring it up court.

That was a bad decision by Tucker, he should know better. I don't really know about the Beasley/Brown issue. I figure that the coach either gives them the freedom to occasionally bring up the ball or Gentry will be all over them for not putting it in the hands of the primary ball handler. I know for myself, I loved bringing the ball up every now and then. If you're stuck playing down low or off the ball, it starts to feel like a foreign object if you go too long in between quality touches. Or, at least it worked that way for me.

Steve
 

elindholm

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I'm surprised nobody here is talking about the 2 on 1 break in the 4th quarter where Tucker wouldn't give up the ball to Dragic for a wide open layup.

I don't understand that criticism. He got to the rim and probably would have scored had he not been fouled. That's what you're supposed to do on the break: get to the rim and draw a foul. It's not like Dragic is automatic. Take the sure thing.
 

AzStevenCal

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I don't understand that criticism. He got to the rim and probably would have scored had he not been fouled. That's what you're supposed to do on the break: get to the rim and draw a foul. It's not like Dragic is automatic. Take the sure thing.

It looked to me like the sure thing would have been to give the ball to a wide open Dragic and then block out the defender from challenging for a rebound.

Steve
 

Superbone

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I don't understand that criticism. He got to the rim and probably would have scored had he not been fouled. That's what you're supposed to do on the break: get to the rim and draw a foul. It's not like Dragic is automatic. Take the sure thing.

Did you see the play?

The sure thing was the wide open, undefended layup for Dragic. Dragic would have scored without being fouled. That's worth two points.

Tucker tried to score with a defender draped on him. No sure thing. He got fouled and had two free throw attempts.

Basketball 101 here.
 

carey

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Did you see the play?

The sure thing was the wide open, undefended layup for Dragic. Dragic would have scored without being fouled. That's worth two points.

Tucker tried to score with a defender draped on him. No sure thing. He got fouled and had two free throw attempts.

Basketball 101 here.

Yeah no doubt. And then when Dragic got in Tucker's face for the mistake Tucker ignored him. Later he wouldn't hi-five him. This is Dragic's team and not scrub-ass Tucker's team. He could go the **** back to Germany for all I care if he's not going to respect our team leader.
 

Mainstreet

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I don't understand that criticism. He got to the rim and probably would have scored had he not been fouled. That's what you're supposed to do on the break: get to the rim and draw a foul. It's not like Dragic is automatic. Take the sure thing.

I thought Tucker should have passed the ball to Dragic but things can happen in a pass off, so I will not fault Tucker for taking the shot and getting fouled at the rim.

Yes, I saw it.
 

sunsfan88

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Tucker is still the best perimeter defender we have on this team.
 

Mainstreet

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Tucker is still the best perimeter defender we have on this team.

He sure stopped Byron Mullen's 3 point shooting exhibition. I still don't know what gives with Mullen shooting all those 3 point shots... actually 6 out of 10. He is not even a good shooter especially from 3 point range.
 

SunsTzu

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He is not even a good shooter especially from 3 point range.

It's pretty obvious he added a 3pt shot over the summer unless you want to completely ignore what he did in preseason and he was shooting 7 per game before playing the Suns.
 

SunsTzu

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Mainstreet

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I know but it's pretty obvious he made a major change in his game this summer, so looking at career stats won't give you a good indication of the player he is now. Including 6 preseason games he is averaging 7 three point attempts per game this year. Last season he only averaged .8 per game and never attempted a 3 before that.

Mullen may have changed his game to include the 3 point shot but that does not necessarily make him a potent 3 point shooter. He is shooting .333 in the regular season so far from 3 point range including his amazing effort against the Suns. It's not that Mullen is shooting the 3 point shot but the fact he shot 6-10 from 3 point range against the Suns that caught my attention.
 

SunsTzu

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Mullen may have changed his game to include the 3 point shot but that does not necessarily make him a potent 3 point shooter. He is shooting .333 in the regular season so far from 3 point range including his amazing effort against the Suns. It's not that Mullen is shooting the 3 point shot but the fact he shot 6-10 from 3 point range against the Suns that caught my attention.

He'll have to prove it over the course of the season, but it's pretty obvious his coach thinks he's a potent 3p shooter since he's letting him get so many up. It's a lot like when Frye first came to the Suns and became a stretch big.
 

elindholm

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Did you see the play?

Yes.

The sure thing was the wide open, undefended layup for Dragic. Dragic would have scored without being fouled. That's worth two points.

Unless he didn't. When Dragic is moving at top speed, he's not very well in control. I don't think it's guaranteed that he would have scored.

Tucker tried to score with a defender draped on him. No sure thing. He got fouled and had two free throw attempts.

I think that's the outcome you're looking for in a fast break. If you can't make free throws, that's a different problem. But I don't think the offense should ever pass up a chance to draw a foul and get to the line, except for very specialized situations toward the end of a game.

Basketball 101 here.

I guess we took different versions of that course.
 

Errntknght

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Lucky for us Brown went 6/8 from 3, mostly guarded at that.

Mullens must rip the cords in practice because in their other two games he went 2/14 on threes and last year he shot < 30%. EJ kept saying he had the 'ultra green light' after he canned a couple so it's probably true. He didn't make any after Tucker started playing him tight w.o. the ball, so the Suns have probably demonstrated how to deal with him.
 

Superbone

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I guess we took different versions of that course.

Yeah, I'm not going to argue with you. There's no question in my mind Dragic would have made the easy layup. He was pretty much waiting on the left side of the basket (his strong side.) If an NBA guard can't make that layup 99.99% of the time, they don't belong in the league.
 

SunsTzu

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so the Suns have probably demonstrated how to deal with him.

They probably made a better demonstration on how not to deal with him. I'm guessing since he shot so poorly the 1st two games that those teams already knew how to defend him based on the way he shot in preseason.
 

SirStefan32

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Yes.

Unless he didn't. When Dragic is moving at top speed, he's not very well in control. I don't think it's guaranteed that he would have scored.

I think that's the outcome you're looking for in a fast break. If you can't make free throws, that's a different problem. But I don't think the offense should ever pass up a chance to draw a foul and get to the line, except for very specialized situations toward the end of a game.

I guess we took different versions of that course.

I disagree. The outcome you are looking for is scoring two points. Tucker was guarded, Dragic was wide open. The best thing to do is to pass the ball to the guy who is open.

Doesn't matter what kind of a shot it is, I will take my chances with Dragic over any scrub, including Tucker.
 

95pro

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Yeah, I'm not going to argue with you. There's no question in my mind Dragic would have made the easy layup. He was pretty much waiting on the left side of the basket (his strong side.) If an NBA guard can't make that layup 99.99% of the time, they don't belong in the league.

I disagree. The outcome you are looking for is scoring two points. Tucker was guarded, Dragic was wide open. The best thing to do is to pass the ball to the guy who is open.

Doesn't matter what kind of a shot it is, I will take my chances with Dragic over any scrub, including Tucker.

agreed with you guys here.
hell when i'm running a with a fast break, the point is to score an easy layup/2pts. last thing i'm thinking is "man i keeping this ball even if the other guys are open and im going to see if i can draw a foul".

and current dragic is much better at finishing on these fast breaks. old suns dragic wasnt.
 

elindholm

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and current dragic is much better at finishing on these fast breaks. old suns dragic wasnt.

I've seen Dragic blow two easy layups already this season, and it's been only a few games, so I don't understand how you can possibly make that claim.
 

SunsTzu

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I've seen Dragic blow two easy layups already this season, and it's been only a few games, so I don't understand how you can possibly make that claim.

The only layups I've seen Dragic blow this year were ones that were made fairly difficult by him needing to create space to get open. Last season Dragic was among the best at his position when it comes to finishing at the rim, in fact the only players to shoot a better % than him all averaged fewer attempts than Dragic had makes.

http://www.hoopdata.com/shotstats.aspx?team=%&type=pg&posi=PG&yr=2012&gp=0&mins=0
 

SirStefan32

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I've seen Dragic blow two easy layups already this season, and it's been only a few games, so I don't understand how you can possibly make that claim.

Oh come on now Eric- attempting a layup when someone is guarding you cannot possibly be a better solution than passing it to the guy who is NOT being guarded. I don't care if it's a layup, a mid-range jumper, or a long three. I don't understand why you are arguing this in a manner that would make Slin blush. You know this- we are talking basic fast-break tactics.

I realize you don't like Dragic, but unlike people like Slin, you usually try very hard to stay objective, which is why I am so confused as to why you are arguing that Tucker was right to do what he did.
Am I missing something here?
 

elindholm

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Oh come on now Eric- attempting a layup when someone is guarding you cannot possibly be a better solution than passing it to the guy who is NOT being guarded. I don't care if it's a layup, a mid-range jumper, or a long three. I don't understand why you are arguing this in a manner that would make Slin blush. You know this- we are talking basic fast-break tactics.

I guess I'm just wrong. I see the defense fouling as a concession that the offense has done its job. "Get to the rim and draw a foul," we hear that a thousand times a season. I'll admit that I haven't watched the play over and over, but it sure looked to me like Tucker had an easy score had he not been fouled. So what's the big deal? Either he's aggressive and goes hard for the rim, or he second-guesses himself and starts trying to execute a little dish-off that isn't within his skill set. If he makes both free throws, there's no argument at all, so why not instead focus on improving his free-throw shooting? And remember, a foul on the defense brings the offense closer to the bonus, so it provides extra value that way.

I realize you don't like Dragic

Dragic has impressed me this season, and I haven't said anything negative about him since the real games started. But people miss layups; it happens. It's not like Tucker had LeBron James trailing, ready to electrify the team with a thunderous dunk. Sure, Dragic probably scores without getting fouled, but again, I think if you get to the rim and go to the line, you've done your job. If Tucker didn't have a clear path to the basket and was risking coming away with nothing, that's a different story. But I want players who can see that target, know they can get there, and attack it for all they're worth.
 

Mainstreet

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As I recall on the play Dragic was slightly behind Tucker going to the rim. Yes, it would have been a nice play if Tucker had passed the ball but I think some posters are ignoring the possibility of the ball getting tipped or going astray where the Suns would have got nothing. IMO, Tucker had a path to the hoop and it was up to his discretion whether he should keep the ball or pass it. I've seen these type plays go awry when a player does not make a good pass.
 

BC867

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If he makes both free throws, there's no argument at all, so why not instead focus on improving his free-throw shooting?
As they were headed downcourt?

Finding the open man should be instinctual for NBA players, young or old.
 

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