Thunder @ Suns Sunday game thread, 11-12-2023

Chaplin

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I think coaching is a problem but I don't solely blame Vogel. As I've said, Kevin Young's offense appears nonexistent. It's horrible ISO ball. We've won 2 of our 4 games by last minute layups by Nurkic on broken plays, essentially. So what sort of offensive guru is Young, exactly?

The defense is bad but I think part of that can be attributed to guys being so disheartened by being crushed in the 4th quarter. When you only make 2 FG's in the 4th quarter as a team, of course everyone is dejected and their confidence is shot. The 7 Seconds Or Less Suns were more enthusiastic on defense than this squad because at least they were in good spirits and had a plan as soon as they got control of the ball, run! Maybe this team should adopt something like that. I dont know.


As I've said, I'm not putting this on Vogel. The only guys I put blame on outside of the players are Kevin Young and James Jones. Young for the atrocious offense. I dont care if Booker isn't there. He should have sets for KD and Beal since Booker isn't expected to be playing 48 minutes a night. James Jones for the awful roster construction, again. He does not like or want PF's at all, he's avoided them every year he's been here. He also seems to think 2 SG's make a PG and that isn't the case, especially when we're talking about reserves. I know Ishbia is active as an owner but I also don't believe he's forced JJ to make certain moves and avoid certain types of players. Trading Cam Payne in salary dump was stupid, wasting a roster spot on Bol Bol was also dumb, and entering the season with 1 real Center in Nurkic, an undersized backup in Eubanks, and no other player who fits Vogel's style was as foolish as only have 1 PG on the roster, a throw in from the Beal trade in Goodwin, who is a 2nd year player. I like Goodwin a lot but without a true PG to mentor him I feel we're setting him to fail.
It is on the coach to make adjustments and there seems to be no variety on offense. There isn't any on defense either, and we are getting killed by the 2-man game in the 4th quarter. OKC ran that over and over and over and over.

If Vogel isn't going to adjust -- he attempted to by altering his KD sub patterns -- then you fall victim to the "doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result" hole.
 

AzCardsfan76

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And yet, we still started 8-8. Can’t put the “turnaround” on the PG when we started with that record WITH that same point guard.
Which just makes it that more concerning for me, we were able to turn it around that year.

Without a true PG/Ball handler/distributor the offense looks discombobulated with zero flow. I also believe the turn over issue can be directly attributed to this as well.

I am trying to be optimistic in stating that we did start 8-8 on our finals run but there is reason for concern right now. I'll reserve final judgment until we can get the team healthy and whole for a good stretch and see how we look then.
 

Hoop Head

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It's hard for me to separate James Jones from Kevin Young and Frank Vogel. They are all part of the problem.

Like I said, I'm not just blaming Vogel. He does deserve blame, for sure, but perhaps a little less than Young. Young has shown an inability to create plays that create good looks for anyone. The only good looks we get at all on offense are from teams doubling KD and him finding the open man. He was retained and made the highest paid assistant in the NBA. It seemed like the offense would be his, for the most part.

Young also seems to be using Nurkic like Jokic and that ain't going to cut it. Nurkic is a solid passing big and makes good reads but he's not an offensive scoring threat that should have the ball in his hands that often. A play here and there, maybe trying that for brief stretches when our other stars are sitting is one thing but we've seen too much of that at critical points in games.

Offense has never been such a problem for Suns teams and shouldn't be a problem for this roster either. I just don't get it. I honestly think correcting the offense will help the defense though. Like I said, guys become energized offensively. Ayton fans used to always say that's why he'd vanish as well, because we'd quit incorporating him in the offense and while that was often a cop put due to the fact Ayton would check out by the 4th quarter 90% of the time, regardless of offensive touches, I believe a happy offense creates more defensive effort. Guys are scoring and don't want to get pulled because they made a blunder on defense. So fixing the offense will help provide us a better look at the defensive issues.
 
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Mainstreet

Mainstreet

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Like I said, I'm not just blaming Vogel. He does deserve blame, for sure, but perhaps a little less than Young. Young has shown an inability to create plays that create good looks for anyone. The only good looks we get at all on offense are from teams doubling KD and him finding the open man. He was retained and made the highest paid assistant in the NBA. It seemed like the offense would be his, for the most part.

Young also seems to be using Nurkic like Jokic and that ain't going to cut it. Nurkic is a solid passing big and makes good reads but he's not an offensive scoring threat that should have the ball in his hands that often. A play here and there, maybe trying that for brief stretches when our other stars are sitting is one thing but we've seen too much of that at critical points in games.

Offense has never been such a problem for Suns teams and shouldn't be a problem for this roster either. I just don't get it. I honestly think correcting the offense will help the defense though. Like I said, guys become energized offensively. Ayton fans used to always say that's why he'd vanish as well, because we'd quit incorporating him in the offense and while that was often a cop put due to the fact Ayton would check out by the 4th quarter 90% of the time, regardless of offensive touches, I believe a happy offense creates more defensive effort. Guys are scoring and don't want to get pulled because they made a blunder on defense. So fixing the offense will help provide us a better look at the defensive issues.

Turnovers have been a huge problem for the Suns. Opponents frequently score off these turnovers. This used to be the Suns mode of operation, getting easy points off defensive pressure. It's not happening enough, though.

Also, the Suns are missing a point guard that can control tempo, especially to close out games. Hopefully, Booker returning will help.

I read the Clippers believe some of their problems are playing too slow, not getting easy baskets. This seems to be a problem for the Suns as well.
 

Phrazbit

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I blame Isiah Thomas... this roster is very reminiscent of the mess he made in New York. Very expensive, very flashy, but short sighted and with some severe flaws.
 

Hoop Head

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I blame Isiah Thomas... this roster is very reminiscent of the mess he made in New York. Very expensive, very flashy, but short sighted and with some severe flaws.

While I agree to a certain extent that this resembles IT's Knicks, I can't blame someone who doesn't have a title, and hasn't officially been hired as part of the team more than those who are in positions of power doing IT's bidding. James Jones, Mat Ishbia, Josh Bartlestein, and the various other executives as well as coaches should tell IT to kick rocks.
 

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