Protecting Murray

[RugbyMuffin]

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[nidan]

Don't kid yourself -

The Cards had the worst O line in the league last year and an O line that ranks as one of the lowest in the history of the NFL.

The day you say 'the trenches' (O line and D line) don't matter is the day you officially announce you know nothing of the game of football. (not saying you are here....keep reading)

Are you talking about the original starters, the backups or the backups to the backups ?

Last year our starting OL barely saw the field

 

[kerouac9]

I found it yesterday (or day before). I didn’t save the link, but I provided the data. Not looking it up again, but seems easy enough to confirm if you’re questioning its validity.

And I’m fine with limiting the time period viewed. The only reason I went back to 72 is because that’s what the data showed. But I think your “last ten years” is likely too limited a data set. I mean, Randall Cunningham ran for 900 yards in ‘90. And the guy he’s most compared to, Vick, played in the early 2000’s.

But even if you want to limit it to last 10 years it’s still only 8 occurrences. Out of 320 possible opportunities. That’s 2.5% of the time. When talking about prevalence I would hardly call that “many, many times.” How do you propose to move the field goals next? I’m game.

https://pickingpros.com/nfl/quarterback-rushing-leaders.php

QB rushing leaders (yardage), anyone over 600 yards, and count of those between 600 and 400), since 2001:

2001 - Kordell Stewart (527), 3 others
2002 - Mike Vick (749), Daunte Culpepper, 2 others
2003 - Daunte Culpepper (422)
2004 - Mike Vick (902), 1 other
2005 - Mick VIck (597)
2006 - Mike Vick (1039!), 1 other
2007 - Vince Young (395)
2008 - Tyler Thigpen (386)
2009 - David Garrard (323)
2010 - Mike Vick (676)
2011 - Cam Newton (709), Tim Tebow, 1 other
2012 - Robert Griffin III (833), Cam Newton, 2 others
2013 - Cam Newton (587), 5 others
2014 - Russell Wilson (849), Colin Kaepernick, 2 others
2015 - Cam Newton (636), 3 others
2016 - Tyrod Taylor (580), 1 other
2017 - Cam Newton (754), 3 others
2018 - Lamar Jackson (697), Josh Allen, 3 others​

So it looks like your source is old or something? Again, it's not really an outlier condition that Andy Dalton didn't rush for 600 yards. It's probably more reasonable to say that, as a dual threat quarterback, you should reasonably expect Murray to rush for more yards than Tyler Thigpen.

If you expect the guy to add value as a runner, and I think we all do, then you expect him to approach the benchmarks of other QBs who add value as runners. If Kyler Murray is rushing for as many yards as a rookie as Marcus Mariota did, I think we're all going to be disappointed, because one of the traits that elevated him to #1 overall failed to appear.

 

[dscher]

That's what I think we'll see. Even if you don't like Murray much, he is a much more advanced passer than Newton was coming out.

I just don't see a 3-13 year. I don't. Moving back to a 3-4 and all the additions almost guarantee the defense is going to be better. I think health on the offensive line will make them better, the Cardinals had a ridiculous number of injuries. I think the offensive line won't be a bottom 3 unit.

I just got a little nauseous

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

https://pickingpros.com/nfl/quarterback-rushing-leaders.php

QB rushing leaders (yardage), anyone over 600 yards, and count of those between 600 and 400), since 2001:

2001 - Kordell Stewart (527), 3 others
2002 - Mike Vick (749), Daunte Culpepper, 2 others
2003 - Daunte Culpepper (422)
2004 - Mike Vick (902), 1 other
2005 - Mick VIck (597)
2006 - Mike Vick (1039!), 1 other
2007 - Vince Young (395)
2008 - Tyler Thigpen (386)
2009 - David Garrard (323)
2010 - Mike Vick (676)
2011 - Cam Newton (709), Tim Tebow, 1 other
2012 - Robert Griffin III (833), Cam Newton, 2 others
2013 - Cam Newton (587), 5 others
2014 - Russell Wilson (849), Colin Kaepernick, 2 others
2015 - Cam Newton (636), 3 others
2016 - Tyrod Taylor (580), 1 other
2017 - Cam Newton (754), 3 others
2018 - Lamar Jackson (697), Josh Allen, 3 others​

So it looks like your source is old or something? Again, it's not really an outlier condition that Andy Dalton didn't rush for 600 yards. It's probably more reasonable to say that, as a dual threat quarterback, you should reasonably expect Murray to rush for more yards than Tyler Thigpen.

If you expect the guy to add value as a runner, and I think we all do, then you expect him to approach the benchmarks of other QBs who add value as runners. If Kyler Murray is rushing for as many yards as a rookie as Marcus Mariota did, I think we're all going to be disappointed, because one of the traits that elevated him to #1 overall failed to appear.

Eh I kinda think you’re moving the goalposts. But i concede there are “more” albeit not many, that’s still 2.4% of QBs that started each season. And Wilson has only done it once, Kap only once, and even Newton only 50% of the time. So again I think using that as a floor is setting really high expectations. I think people only set such lofty floors if they are trying to set up failure so they can later say “told you so.” Only the elite of the elite running QBs seem to hit or exceed that mark. I mean, I hope - but based on the data you provided hardly expect - Murray to hit that mark.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Eh I kinda think you’re moving the goalposts. But i concede there are “more” albeit not many, that’s still 2.4% of QBs that started each season. And Wilson has only done it once, Kap only once, and even Newton only 50% of the time. So again I think using that as a floor is setting really high expectations. I think people only set such lofty floors if they are trying to set up failure so they can later say “told you so.” Only the elite of the elite running QBs seem to hit or exceed that mark. I mean, I hope - but based on the data you provided hardly expect - Murray to hit that mark.

If sacks were not subtracted from his rushing totals, Murray would have run for over 1100 yards last year on 160 or so carries. That's pretty bad ass.

I think 600 yards is not unreasonable; I think he's going to exceed that total.

My stat line for Murray:

3500 yards passing, 62% completion. 23 TDs, 14 Ints (I think he's going to throw some picks because he's not used to the smaller windows at first).
700 rushing yards, 6 TDs.

29 total TDs.

(Josh Rosen 3200 yards, 60% completion, 19 TDs, 15 Ints, sacked 50 times. Dolphins 3-13. 1st pick in the draft. Flores is going to be awful)

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

(Josh Rosen 3200 yards, 60% completion, 19 TDs, 15 Ints, sacked 50 times. Dolphins 3-13. 1st pick in the draft. Flores is going to be awful)

Of course this is assuming that Rosen starts a majority of the games.

 

[Cardsfaninlouky]

The Cards have been widely criticized for not drafting an O-linemen who plays tackle or even guard. The question is fairly simple, what was the best way to protect their new QB? To most observers it was odd that after taking Murray, 2 of the next 3 picks went defense. To me the theory was simple, if the other team scores too many points the new QB will be constantly playing catch up. Predictably throwing every down and thereby allowing the opposing defense to just rush continuously. That would eventually exhaust the O-line and Murray. By focusing on a top corner the Cards were attempting to forestall quick scores that meant the offense never would get a chance to rest. Barring a rash of injuries this defense should be good enough to provide enough balance to the game to not overly tax Murray.

The other concern was if there was a strong pass rush, would Murray’s mobility be enough to protect him? The Cards saw 2 options to help; draft o-linemen or draft receivers. After their second pick there were no attractive o-lineman certain to provide protection. In fact before the draft the Cards had extensively added to the O-line. The Cards surveyed the situation and decided even with time there were too few targets for Murray. So they elected to go receiver which made sense looking at the pool. In fact I was truly surprised the Cards were able to assemble so many quality receivers. If pressured Murray should have plenty of options to get rid of the ball quickly. Now they must just make certain Murray knows he must protect himself.

In that regard Murray must understand this is the NFL. These opponents are bigger, faster and stronger. If he gets hit very often he will get hurt. Better to take a loss than an injury. The Cards are likely not a playoff team next year, but if (a really big if) this offense is just competitive they could be in 2020. Next year’s free agent group if not destroyed by tagging has some decent O-line prospects. The draft is favorable. Aside from the O-line upgrades the Cards lose Suggs & Swearinger. They could re-sign both. There are 2-3 decent tackles who will be available in the next draft. The point is that the Cards will be in position to contend if the offense works and Murray survives the 2019 season. So be hopeful. Don’t get carried away early. However, the Cards do appear to be on the right track.

Two ways of adding players obviously, through free agency & the draft. Obviously we needed an upgrade at OL & WR. They got both. As you said above, had a higher graded OL player been available in the 4th round & later, the cards may have drafted one? Either way, we needed weapons to catch passes & score points so we would've needed more WR's after selecting an OL player in the 4th round & higher anyways. It's a gamble either direction they went. Hopefully the OL upgrades will stay injury free & us taking so many WR's will pay off?

 

[Jetstream Green]

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[Cardiac]

Call me crazy but I'll be thrilled if Murray doesn't run for a lot of yards if he throws for a bunch of yards and TD's. Scramble and pick up some first downs but always look to throw the ball first, which is what he mostly did in college.

 

[The Kraken]

Heck, if he is under 600 yards rushing and we are winning games because teams are forced "spy" on him and maybe do not run as much man to man for fear of him taking off, I will be very pleased.

 

[Proximo]

Didnt help that our offense was like vanilla ice cream with no threats to speak of. Defense are not going to simply pin their ears back and come after Murray. They are going to half to respect the bubble screens, jet sweeps and rpo’s. That alone will buy this o- line a little time.

They are also going to have to worry about contain with Murray. Last year was “ I’ll meet you at the qb” mentality.

I’m am not disregarding the o - line. I just believe with the speed we have acquired and the diversity in play calling and design that it’s not all doom and gloom.

Exactly. The patriots don’t ever have a great online. They don’t need one because they get the ball out in 3 seconds.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Kyler Murray is Deshaun Watson 2.0... I hope this franchise keeps him alive long enough where we can reap the benefits from drafting him

 

[Solar7]

If sacks were not subtracted from his rushing totals, Murray would have run for over 1100 yards last year on 160 or so carries. That's pretty bad ass.

I think 600 yards is not unreasonable; I think he's going to exceed that total.

My stat line for Murray:

3500 yards passing, 62% completion. 23 TDs, 14 Ints (I think he's going to throw some picks because he's not used to the smaller windows at first).
700 rushing yards, 6 TDs.

29 total TDs.

(Josh Rosen 3200 yards, 60% completion, 19 TDs, 15 Ints, sacked 50 times. Dolphins 3-13. 1st pick in the draft. Flores is going to be awful)

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[slanidrac16]

Kyler Murray is Deshaun Watson 2.0... I hope this franchise keeps him alive long enough where we can reap the benefits from drafting him

He’s smarter, a bit better passer and faster than Watson.... oh, and before anybody responds, he’s shorter too.

 

[Vacard]

If sacks were not subtracted from his rushing totals, Murray would have run for over 1100 yards last year on 160 or so carries. That's pretty bad ass.

I think 600 yards is not unreasonable; I think he's going to exceed that total.

My stat line for Murray:

3500 yards passing, 62% completion. 23 TDs, 14 Ints (I think he's going to throw some picks because he's not used to the smaller windows at first).
700 rushing yards, 6 TDs.

29 total TDs.

(Josh Rosen 3200 yards, 60% completion, 19 TDs, 15 Ints, sacked 50 times. Dolphins 3-13. 1st pick in the draft. Flores is going to be awful)

I truly believe that Flores is a placeholder for someone who Ross really wants.

 

[Krangodnzr]

I truly believe that Flores is a placeholder for someone who Ross really wants.

I think Ross has no idea how to run an NFL franchise.

 

[BigRedArk]

Kyler Murray is Deshaun Watson 2.0... I hope this franchise keeps him alive long enough where we can reap the benefits from drafting him

Murray kinda reminds me of Fran Tarkenton(6 ft. Tall).

 

[Harry]

Legitimately, what is the point of a dual threat QB if he doesn't use one of his tools?

The injury factor is so great and the replacement drop off so steep the hope is that running becomes a last resort or occurs in a situation where he can slide down to protect himself. Seattle lost most of a season when Wilson got hurt. It’s not that Murray can’t run but rather he shouldn’t. That’s why quite a few teams shun running QBs.

 

[Harry]

Murray kinda reminds me of Fran Tarkenton(6 ft. Tall).

There was no combine but look up typical 40 times & and any bench press stats you can find from that era. There is no comparison to the modern day athlete. I loved Fran but he’d be physically destroyed by the current players. The speed/force numbers are so powerful now and the agility so refined Fran’s type of running around wouldn’t last very long Defensive guys from his era would break an ankle doing the 3 cone drill.

 

[cardpa]

Worst position to have to start a rookie on the OL is center.
I'm pretty tired of hearing how the O Line sucked last year and we need to draft a bunch of guys to fix it.

#1) Rookies don't help your O line at all. They virtually never help that fast.
#2) Our own O line hardly played at all last year. Injuries are part of the game to be sure, but no team had to endure having its entire line gone, at the same time starting a rookie QB with a rookie HC.

We ended up having a legendarily bad offense last year, but there are lots of reasons why. We had O line starters in multiple positions in multiple games who literally were not in the NFL the week before.

Wetzel had to start 5 games for us. Holden had 2 starts. Cunningham had 6. Barksdale had 4. Vujnovich had 2. Gossett had 4. Munyer had a start. Aboushi had 6.
And our rookie C who only came in because Shipley went down in preseason had 16 starts. Zero of these people were planned on.

Drafting more rookies and throwing them in amongst the other 20 already here wouldn't affect our game nearly so much as just keeping our guys upright and playing together for a while.

The problem is half of the guys who weren't planned on are still on the roster and the other half of the line are injury prone which will probably result in bringing in some more guys off the street by mid season. In fact you could argue that this collection of linemen is even worse since Wetzel is gone as is Barksdale. I would rather have a rookie who can start 16 games for me and allow him to grow and learn as he plays than depend on a guy who has a history of playing in 6-7 games and ending up on IR and having to start a backup who doesn't have half the talent the rookie has. The line is still a mess. A turd is still a turd no matter how much you shine it up.

 

[Krangodnzr]

The problem is half of the guys who weren't planned on are still on the roster and the other half of the line are injury prone which will probably result in bringing in some more guys off the street by mid season. In fact you could argue that this collection of linemen is even worse since Wetzel is gone as is Barksdale. I would rather have a rookie who can start 16 games for me and allow him to grow and learn as he plays than depend on a guy who has a history of playing in 6-7 games and ending up on IR and having to start a backup who doesn't have half the talent the rookie has. The line is still a mess. A turd is still a turd no matter how much you shine it up.

Wetzel became expendable when Kunningham showed he could play a little.

Gilbert >>>>>>> Barksdale when healthy.

 

[Chopper0080]

The injury factor is so great and the replacement drop off so steep the hope is that running becomes a last resort or occurs in a situation where he can slide down to protect himself. Seattle lost most of a season when Wilson got hurt. It’s not that Murray can’t run but rather he shouldn’t. That’s why quite a few teams shun running QBs.

I understand, but that is the risk you take when you prioritize a QB with that skill set. You don't keep them from using their advantage, you just have to work with them to know how to protect themselves.

 

[kerouac9]

I understand, but that is the risk you take when you prioritize a QB with that skill set. You don't keep them from using their advantage, you just have to work with them to know how to protect themselves.

Yes. I think the idea is that the mobility can keep him effective and the team competitive as he learns the fine points of the position at the NFL level. There's no such thing as a 31-year old dual-threat QB.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Yes. I think the idea is that the mobility can keep him effective and the team competitive as he learns the fine points of the position at the NFL level. There's no such thing as a 31-year old dual-threat QB.

Russell Wilson seven months from now. I keep waiting for Wilson to slow down and he hasn't yet.