Peyton Manning one of the best ever.
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az jam
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Absolutely agree, we could debate this forever. However both Manning and Brady will someday be in the NFL Hall of Fame. No debate on that.
AZ Native
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I have watched NFL football for over 50 yrs and in my humble opinion, Peyton is the best QB I have ever seen. Bar none!
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az jam
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Well nice to have another old fart like me on the board. I saw my first pro football game in 1955 when the hopeless Green Bat Packers upset the Los Angeles Rams in Milwaukee County Stadium (I grew up in Milwaukee). i was 13 years old and my grade school played on the field against another grade school at halftime for entertainment. We sat on the Ram's bench but when the teams came out on the field I asked and got Elroy "Crazy Legs" Hirsch's autograph.
Back to the thread, Manning is the best that I have ever seen and I like you have seen them all. But we know that certainly is debatable.
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nashman
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I'm sorry I always hear that Tom Brady wasn't surrounded by great players, thats total crap the Patriots had a great defense and on offense they had Corey Dillion, deon Branch, troy brown its not like he had no weapons, oh and the greatest weapon Vinateri who seemed liked he never missed. You have to look no farther than Matt Cassell to see Belichik is the reason that team wins. Again I think Brady is good but to me he is not in the top 5 QB's of all time NO WAY! And again both of the all 3 they won were by 3 with the KICKER winning them on the last play of the game. How Brady won the MVP's is kinda of a joke when the kicker was the clutch one winning the games!
chickenhead
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Brady's 1st Super Bowl, maybe, but his supporting cast for most of the years since then has been different. He really benefited from the Pats being able to bring in players like Dillon and Moss for those kinds of prices. But being part of a good organization shouldn't devalue what Brady has done with it. He's won two more Super Bowls and come within minutes of a perfect 19-0 season. How much more does he need to prove? That said, I think Manning is the better QB. But head-to-head, the Patriots have been the better team.
An interesting question is, how would they have done on each other's teams? Would Peyton and Belichik clash? Would Brady have been enough of a field general for Dungy?
An interesting question is, how would they have done on each other's teams? Would Peyton and Belichik clash? Would Brady have been enough of a field general for Dungy?
Gambit
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Agreed.
I also like your ideas on them switching teams. Peyton and Bellichick wouldn't work--Peyton thrives in autonomy, Bellichick loves control. Their would be a major paradigm clash there.
I have no idea how Brady would do on the Colts.
RugbyMuffin
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Right here. I have seen Manning play before and such, but the game he had against us last Sunday night was ridiculous.
If our DB's farted wrong he cashed in on it.
Each QB that has been deemed great in this league was extremely talented in all the skills an NFL QB has to have but each was "the best" at one thing.
Arm:
Dan Marino
Pure Atheletic Ability:
John Elway
Brains:
Peyton Manning
Composure:
Joe Montana
Competitiveness:
Steve Young
Will (Jedi Powers):
Brett Farve
Accuracy:
Joe Montana
Improvisitation (sp?):
Fran Tarkenton
That is all I can do off the top of my head but you get the idea.
I think we are seeing a genius (at least in football knowledge and IQ) at work when Manning is out on the field. It is like he is a robot and someone is playing Madden against the defense out there. He sees one thing happen after the snap and he KNOWS what is exactly going on, finds the guy to key on and reacts off that.
That all being said, it is just another reason of hope for our current Cardinals team. We screwed up twice deep in the red zone, and Peyton Manning got hot. Yes, our team didn't look great, but you factor in Manning and the day he was having and you can see how the game just got out of hand.
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nashman
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Brady would probably be much similar to Matt Cassell right now thats your answer! Brady has hugely benefitted from the team around him period. Without a good defense they don't win alot of the games they won and lets be honest when your kicker wins every superbowl you have won and your QB has rather pedestrian numbers in those bowls he is not the MVP!! Your coach and kicker are, Brady is rather cool under pressure but that doesn't make him one of the best ever!
Gambit
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He's done the best with what he has, and you have to respect that.
Plus he can put up huge numbers, as witnessed by the Perfect Regular Season. He has tremendous skills. Although he is by and large a system QB. The Patriots are like Texas Tech with a defense.
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Not saying Brady isn't a good QB clearly he is! One of the best ever is the question I don't believe personally he is one of the top QB's to ever play which I have heard many times in the media.
There is one name, and characteristic that absolutely must be included on the list but is typically omitted because most of us are too young to know or recall his playing days:
Winning:
Otto Graham -
In 10 pro football seasons, Graham led the Cleveland Browns to 10 title games, an accomplishment that will likely never be matched!
On top of that in 1956 the same year he lead the Browns to a championship, Graham played for the Rochester Royals and won an NBA Championship!
WOW!
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matt cassell played one season what do we know about him yet?
spare me those guys...they are all spares to include the kicker. troy brown and deon branch lol? You have a guy who will be in the HOF because of 2-3 clutch kicks...and they wern't exactly 55 yd attempts or anything. If that bills kicker made that kick would he be in the HOF? vinatieri came through in the clutch and good for him, but the kicker has one play. The rest of the guys determine 99% of the play. Essentially he's going into the hall off of 2 plays in his career. That to me is not right.
the patriots had one star and a team full of blue collar players. They proved in this day and age when the league is all about star power...that i real dynasty is about team. and that is the philosphy of most....but few HC's in the league actually get their players to buy into other than Bill.
all he has done is win games and championships on a team where he is the only true star. that is what actually makes him unique compared to most other championship QB's who had first ballot HOFers around him. the fact that the FG kicker is one of maybe 2-3 Hofer's on that team is saying something about what they achieved.
peyton has been incredibly consistent and is also a winner, but head to head he has lost plenty to N.E. and he has also played very poorly in some playoff games. If you're a colts fan you are perhaps thinking that from a talent perspective the colts should have won another ring or two. I would put peyton and brady even.
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nashman
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Peyton and Brady even? Ok end of conversation that statement is obsurd! And I am a Cardinals fan but I can appreciate the greatness of Manning like any other football fan with some understanding of the game!
why is it obsurd? It is a opinion that is clearly debatable. We aren't talking about jerry rice and michael irvin here.
A lot of people I talk to actually think brady is better. Head to head he performed in the clutch while manning made critical mistakes that cost his team. I put them even because manning has been very consistent for a long time...whereas brady has the playoff accolades that manning cannot match. Interestingly enough stats don't tell the whole story. I judge a QB on wins. brady broke all of mannings single season records a couple of years ago. Yet in spite of these excellent regular seasons that these 2 have had...neither won SB's those record breaking years. these guys couldn't be more close to one another IMHO. I don't take issue with anyone who thinks manning is better...on the flip side I don't take issue with someone who thinks brady is. obviously because I think they are about the same.
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AZ Native
Living is Easy with Eyes Closed
Well nice to have another old fart like me on the board. I saw my first pro football game in 1955 when the hopeless Green Bat Packers upset the Los Angeles Rams in Milwaukee County Stadium (I grew up in Milwaukee). i was 13 years old and my grade school played on the field against another grade school at halftime for entertainment. We sat on the Ram's bench but when the teams came out on the field I asked and got Elroy "Crazy Legs" Hirsch's autograph.
Back to the thread, Manning is the best that I have ever seen and I like you have seen them all. But we know that certainly is debatable.
Thx az jam. Everything is relative. But from from what I have witnessed in the last 50 years, Peyton is the best. IMHO
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One thing Brady has ALWAYS had since he got behind center is a defense that SCORES and one that gets the ball back for him and another try.Defensive rules even changed due to that patriots defense that held passing teams players and Tony Dungy on the rules committee made sure we have the rules we have in the NFL today and it also led his team to a NFL Championship the year after the rules went into effect.I'm sure you don't need me to tell you what rules I'm talking about.
I don't think the patriots win SB 36 even close without all the holding and late hits during that game.Yet Brady had a kicker to win on another long FG by 3 and his defense scored as much as he did.Plus he won the mvp with just over 100 yards passing.That is a sham to me.Lots of what Brady has done could be compared if every player could have played in that same system.I know Manning would have more than 1 ring in that system.
With todays defensive rules Warner would have 2 rings due to SB 36 and the awesome players surrounding Warner would'nt have been beaten to a pulp during the game.It would have been flag day.Or a real run away game if the real rules of today were observed due to the passing team the lambs were.I'm not a real Brady fan.Lets see how he turns out this year if he does'nt keep getting rushing days like Fred Taylor gave him last week of over 100+ yards.
I believe Brady is ranked 22nd of all qb's right now going into this weeks game.He finally does'nt have the same defense he once had and even with Moss and other wide recievers without his Welker he looks like Superman holding kryptonite.Very human.I see Manning throwing to Collie and Garcon like they been there for a while.I will have to say Collie from BYU was going to be great anyway,anywhere with a good qb arm.So taking away his Harrison did'nt kill Manning.
I still agree Otto Graham was one of the top 3 EVER.In many ways.comp%,yards per pass,and many other things that showed how great he was before there ever were just passing teams.He also was a mans man.A real B.A.
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Joe Montana was also a system QB, yet he's highly regarded as one of the GOAT. I don't know why his accomplishments are legit, but Brady's are somehow diminished.
Shogun
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You do understand that Brady is still rusty after being out for the year with a knee injury? Can you give him a bit more time before you try and do the "Ah ha! I told you" act? Peyton Manning, who everyone is loving in this thread, had a QB Rating around 70 and 10 TDs/9 INTs at the halfway point of the season just last year after his surgey. He then got his mojo back and cruised to another MVP award. Brady will be fine. He looked very good in the second half of the Buffalo game.
I'm disappointed in the disrespect for Brady and how eager people are ready to discredit him. Using Matt Cassel as confirmation that anyone can succeed in NE's 'system' is bunk because if you look at the numbers both having the same supporting cast it isn't even close.
Patriots w/ Brady: 16 wins, SB appearance
Patriots w/ Cassell: 11-5, missed playoffs
Brady: 4,806 yards, 50 TDs, 8 INTs
Cassell: 3,693 yards, 21 TDs, 11 INTs
Cassel put up good numbers with great weapons, Brady put ups all-time great numbers with a great cast. Brady put up great numbers and lead SB-winning offenses with a bunch of number three receivers. End of story. At the end of it all, he goes down as one of the greats and one of the special QBs of this generation.
And can we give some credit to Rex Ryan and that great Jets' defense? They haven't made any offense look good this year. Manning would struggle against him as well.
Any and everyone in this thread that trys to explain away Tom Brady's success and accomplishments with things such as "it's the players around him" or "it's the system he played in" or "it's because of his defense" etc... etc... Is severely delusional and loses a ton of "football" credibility.
To be more clear you are all clueless!
To be more clear you are all clueless!
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Any and everyone in this thread that trys to explain away Tom Brady's success and accomplishments with things such as "it's the players around him" or "it's the system he played in" or "it's because of his defense" etc... etc... Is severely delusional and loses a ton of "football" credibility.
To be more clear you are all clueless!
I never had any credability to lose.I will admit to being clueless also.I just think that for a very long time Belicheat has had an awesome defense that has always ranked highly on the scoring defensive side of the coin.Something other greats might not of had. I know Eddie DeBartalo did buy himself great defenses to go with Montana so who knows.I know a few qb's that have never had that kind of defense to play with,all while having their most success in this league.
Elway was always athletic and could run and throw like a baseball fastball pitcher and when he got older he went with an awesome running game that got him two SB trophies and he went out on top after losing a few SB's without the running game.Terrell Davis was something special out of Georgia.What a find.Shame about his carreer injury.Tough for RB's.Lots get overused too early and long.Now we're into a time of the rotational backfields.Not the Eric Dickerson mindset.
I just know defenses have surely helped qb's get farther along.I did'nt mean to try to bring Brady down with the suggestion.Nor lift Manning either as once or twice the colts "D" has been effective running that Tampa style that has always been effective against Warner and many other pocket passers.
You have to have very special linebackers aka...Derrick Brooks that are very fast(able to get back deep quickly) and can hit with a ton to run that Tampa Two style of defense that is successfull.Eddie D. just bought the best players on 'D' and had them play with his offense.York can't do that now.lol
After playing this sport for so long all I know as a trenchman with my lunchpail is that no quarterback ever did anything without guys like me protecting their behinds.Many a great offensive line has passed by with the likes of these greatest qb's of all time.None will be remembered truly though.Thats just the biz.
As a football card guy who has sold one or two on ebay.Brady sells better than any other qb besides Favre right now.So I proudly walk away with my cluelessness and dissapear again.A retired man's gotta have a hobby or two.You can hardly sell a Montana,Elway,Namath card during these bad economic times.Folks want them for free or nothing.Once you've risked a cards future by having it graded and sealed up forever by the toughest grading service in the land that charges you tons of money per card to grade.You get a high grade on that card while 10 others are trashed in value with bad grades.You still can't get what you have in the card.Sorry for getting off topic.I just thought this thread could use a tidbit of current news on the NFL card market.
We will find out - Dec 27th, Jets vs. Colts at Indianapolis
Thank you....Any and everyone in this thread that trys to explain away Tom Brady's success and accomplishments with things such as "it's the players around him" or "it's the system he played in" or "it's because of his defense" etc... etc... Is severely delusional and loses a ton of "football" credibility.
To be more clear you are all clueless!
I think we can look at every SB winning QB and point to other teammates or coaches that helped him along. If you want to say defense helped brady... fine. I'm pretty sure defense helped every SB team. The fact is reggie wayne and marvin harrison helped peyton. and peyton's defense scored 2 TD's in his SB game no? Michael irvin emmitt smith and argueably the best OL of all time helped aikman. oh BTW the cowboys defense in 92 had no pro bowlers, but they were the #1 defense in the NFL that year and forced a record 9 turnovers in the SB. In fact in every SB victory in the 90's the cowboys defense either scored or created game deciding scores.
rice, taylor, roger craig, and argueably the greatest offensive innovator of all time helped montana. we could diminish QB's in all sorts of ways by pointing out the players at the other 21 positions and the coaching that helped them out. after all this is a team game. these are just a bunch of silly arguements going full circle.
Again my statement about brady is that he is unique in the fact that as a QB with 3 rings.. he has no first ballot specialty HOF players around him on his offense in the SB years. and if we are going to praise manning for his statistical genius in spite of a average playoff record, then we can also give brady props for having the best single season of all time in spite of losing the big one. it would be one thing if we were talking about one hit wonders like brad johnson or trent dilfer. but brady is no doubt...special.
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nashman
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Shane your opinion is just that the same as anyone elses, you like Brady as I remember so your opinion is a bit biased as well. The fact that Matt Cassell played with the same team and they were 11-5 speaks VOLUMES about how that team wins period Brady is good but to compare him to the greatest of all time is out there imo! How great is Cassell looking in a different system? Again you can argue all you want but the fact is the KICKER won all three rings Mr. Brady has on his fingers!
