Knicks @ Suns Friday game thread 12-15-2023

Cheesebeef

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Shawn actually sounds really good. Glad he has a pretty full house still there for him.
I’m glad that the fans stuck around for him. For all the guff I gave Marion, he was a hell of a lot of fun to watch and part of truly FUN title contender that always left it all on the court. Easy teams to cheer for, even if the outcomes repeatedly ripped our hearts out.

I guess at least there’s not that kind of pain to fear coming down the line with this club because this team looks like they don’t have a heart. And if they don’t, they sure as hell ain’t ripping mine out.

I gotta wonder if Vogel is almost fired. This team reminds me of the 2008 or 9. The similarities are eerie. The previous year was DA’s last, we made a BIG swing for a coming off injury Shaq, dealing long time fan favorite Marion. When healthy, they looked pretty good then had Tim Duncan deliver his final Spurs dagger in us and we got whooped out of the playoffs. DA got fired, Porter came in and made us unwatchable with a lot of the same pieces… then got fired after like 35 games. Gentry took over and all of sudden the fun and gun Suns were back. Poured like 140 on the Clippers with everyone going nuts… then Amare’s eye fell out of his head and derailed the rest of the season.

Here, we had the end of a nice three year run, Monty at end of his rope, a BIG SWING trade for KD, swapping out fan favorites. Went into the postseason kinda in same position as that Suns team, put up a better fight, but still lost. Monty canned. New coach comes in. The next season all the pieces look like they might come together but the team is just beyond lackluster. Very Porter-esque.

I can only hope the trend from that 09 season continues. At least it only took 1 year for the Suns to right the ship and get back to the WCF. Maybe that happens with a coaching change and something unforeseen this off-season. But right now? This team ain’t it.

Biggest difference between the two situations was the Nash/Amare twosome was always what that 2004-2010 Suns squad was built around to contend. For us it was CP3/Book and then a great cadre of young guys rising up… but CP3’s gonzo as are the youngins.

Oh well… at least we have the Card…er…nals?

Yeah. Dark times in the Valley of the Suns.
 
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BirdGangThing

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Shawn Marion has some serious love for the valley - I got a little choked up when he did - my name is Shawn too - even as a casual fan growing up my step brother and I would immulate stat and the matrix - fighting over who was better

Glad to see everyone stick around - good to see Jerry and the old school Suns - f*** Sarver
 

Raindog

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Seconding most of the post game analysis aforementioned. Vogel stinks and needs to be fired as soon as the final whistle of the season for the Suns, which presumably will be well before anything resembling the Finals finals or even a conference finals. And dump the rest of the lousy staff with him.

And hopefully soon to be followed by James Jones getting canned. Let him go sit on his hands at another team's expense next year. Ishbia can afford to shell out for good/proven front office people instead of the bargain basement trainees that Sarver constantly brought in.
 

Hoop Head

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Shawn Marion has some serious love for the valley - I got a little choked up when he did - my name is Shawn too - even as a casual fan growing up my step brother and I would immulate stat and the matrix - fighting over who was better

Glad to see everyone stick around - good to see Jerry and the old school Suns - f*** Sarver

That was a cool ceremony. Those things always make allergies flare up. Really looking forward to Stoudemire's time. He was what got me back into the Suns as a teenager/young adult. I'd checked out for the most part during the late 90's and early 2000's because I was busy being a punk teenager.

So glad Marion got a warm welcome into the ROH and has mended his relationship with the Suns. You could tell it meant a lot to him tonight.
 

Azjose86

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This suns team is so bad. They gave up all their drafts and depth for 3 guys who are always injured. The window has officially closed for this team.
 

nashman

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To much talent on this team for efforts like this! They better get motivated before this season gets away from them. It literally looks as they don’t practice anything…ugh…
 

Phrazbit

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To much talent on this team for efforts like this! They better get motivated before this season gets away from them. It literally looks as they don’t practice anything…ugh…

I don't know that there is too much talent.

We have like 4, legit, high quality players, one or 2 decent role players and then a boat load of trash. And, among those top 6 guys, 4 of them are extremely injury prone.

These injuries are not a fluke, they're a feature.

It freakin sucks, but it would take a freaking miracle for the top part of this roster to stay healthy for an 8 week playoff run. They can't even stay healthy for one game right now.
 

taz02

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The suns have zero chance of winning a series against the better, bigger teams like the Bucks. Anyone catch the stat line for Giannis in the Bucks 140 point victory over the Pacers? (64 points 14 rebounds 70% shooting, with 32 FTA). I have no idea how good the Pacers are defensively, but they can’t be much worse than us.

We need an interior defender, a point guard, health, and better coaching to have any shot at being a contender.

Also, what a bad time to retire Marion's jersey, reminded me what having an exciting team was like.
 

CardNots

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It's not gonna happen tonight maybe not by the AS break.
But this team WILL find it's identity and when that happens we will have some beautiful basketball to watch.
Give them a chance to play together, one game means nothing.
Well that would be a huge step up from sucking… I seriously cannot watch anymore. It’s not even at a local gym pick up game level yet:)
 

wagon mound 464

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Suns may not even make the play in tourney.


** Vogel looks, after 25 games in,
to be overhyped as a head coach just because he won a 'Bubble' Championship.
I mentioned in another thread that Vogel isn't the coach many believed would get this team to the finals.
Wishful thinking. The Lakers didn't want him any longer with stars like AD and Lebron....
Vogel style is substitutions after 4/5 minutes,, throwing too many combos into the mix. The look on KD's
face with the subs coming in, looks like he has to keep adjusting to those on the floor. (throw parts at it until its fixed?)

Hope Matt I. was watching the Kings and Nets games also. The Nuggets, Mavs, Lakers are licking their chops to face the Suns.
 

Hoop Head

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The suns have zero chance of winning a series against the better, bigger teams like the Bucks. Anyone catch the stat line for Giannis in the Bucks 140 point victory over the Pacers? (64 points 14 rebounds 70% shooting, with 32 FTA). I have no idea how good the Pacers are defensively, but they can’t be much worse than us.

The Pacers defense is 28th or 29th in the league. They're awful. They do have the best offense in the league, which is how they've been competitive but we actually look good on defense compared to them. We're middle of the pack, in the 12-18 range for defense.

We do need size. We need help. This roster is so poorly constructed that I'm surprised we haven't heard more about making a move. I know we don't have many means to make a trade of sorts but this isn't cutting it.
 

Bufalay

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Booker is a really bad point guard. He takes 7.8 seconds to cross half court and then another 6 seconds to decide what he's going to do after that.
 

AzStevenCal

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Booker is a really bad point guard. He takes 7.8 seconds to cross half court and then another 6 seconds to decide what he's going to do after that.
I think "really bad" is an overstatement. But no matter where you rank him as a PG, it's far below where he ranks as a shooting guard. To me, he is a an average offensive PG and a well below average defensive PG. At the 2 spot, he's perhaps the best in the league on offense and one of the best on defense. He struggles to guard a few of the quicker 2's otherwise I'd rate him as the best defender at that spot. But when he moves to the point, he struggles defending most of them.

Also, unless he's paired with a strong (and quick) ballhandler, it's easy to press him into irrelevance. And teams do that regularly late in the game.
 
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Mainstreet

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Frank Vogel says the Suns have to decide if they want to be a good defensive team.

Personally, I think it's more about coaching because I don't see any malcontents on the team.

Kellan Olson

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Frank Vogel said the Suns have to decide whether or not they want to be a good defensive team."What we're doing is not good enough."
 
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Mainstreet

Mainstreet

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I think "really bad" is an overstatement. But no matter where you rank him as a PG, it's far below where he ranks as a shooting guard. To me, he is a an average offensive PG and a well below average defensive PG. At the 2 spot, he's perhaps the best in the league on offense and one of the best on defense. He struggles to guard a few of the quicker 2's otherwise I'd rate him as the best defender at that spot. But when he moves to the point, he struggles defending most of them.

Also, unless he's paired with a strong (and quick) ballhandler, it's easy to press him into irrelevance. And teams do that regularly late in the game.

I think the idea was to run the team with two combo guards. Unfortunately, that hasn't materialized and the Suns didn't think they needed a more conventional point guard to stabilize the team.

Now they are paying the price.
 

Cheesebeef

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I think "really bad" is an overstatement. But no matter where you rank him as a PG, it's far below where he ranks as a shooting guard. To me, he is a an average offensive PG and a well below average defensive PG. At the 2 spot, he's perhaps the best in the league on offense and one of the best on defense. He struggles to guard a few of the quicker 2's otherwise I'd rate him as the best defender at that spot. But when he moves to the point, he struggles defending most of them.

Also, unless he's paired with a strong (and quick) ballhandler, it's easy to press him into irrelevance. And teams do that regularly late in the game.
What bothers me most about Booker as ball handler is after all this time, he still lets himself get totally trapped on double teams and he and the team haven’t figured out how to attack that and make teams pay when it happens.
 

taz02

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I think "really bad" is an overstatement. But no matter where you rank him as a PG, it's far below where he ranks as a shooting guard. To me, he is a an average offensive PG and a well below average defensive PG. At the 2 spot, he's perhaps the best in the league on offense and one of the best on defense. He struggles to guard a few of the quicker 2's otherwise I'd rate him as the best defender at that spot. But when he moves to the point, he struggles defending most of them.

Also, unless he's paired with a strong (and quick) ballhandler, it's easy to press him into irrelevance. And teams do that regularly late in the game.

Yes, this is the problem.

I'm no expert but if you plan on not having to have a true PG don't you need a well defined offense. I don't think the triangle needed a PG. Without a floor general you need a great offensive system. Maybe Beal is the answer but I wouldn't bet on it.
 

Raindog

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Frank Vogel says the Suns have to decide if they want to be a good defensive team.

Personally, I think it's more about coaching because I don't see any malcontents on the team.

Kellan Olson
@KellanOlson

Frank Vogel said the Suns have to decide whether or not they want to be a good defensive team."What we're doing is not good enough."
I have the same impression. Almost all the players on the team seem like historically solid professionals, not troublemakers or guys who have had issues with their past teams. It's very difficult for me to imagine they are ignoring or defying the coaches. And it's not my impression that most of the players are historically low basketball IQ types either.

Which pretty much indicates to me that the coaching staff is not doing its job successfully. I don't know precisely what the issue is, but watching in real time Vogel bungle the management of the ending of that Spurs game earlier this season certainly left me questioning his aptitude. And nothing I've seen since then has indicated that was a fluke.
 

elindholm

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We have no assets to even get things done.

Actually they do.

It will never happen, but the correct decision would be to pull the plug on the Durant experiment now. It's not working, it's not going to work, and the longer the Suns hold onto him as a depreciating asset, the worse of a hole they are digging for themselves.

I'm not saying that Durant is the problem with this year's team. He isn't. He's playing at a high level and has been healthy. But he's not the solution either. He's not a leader, and for all of his alleged chemistry with Booker off the court, on the court they seem like strangers.

Beal is a sunk cost, but the rest of the roster has fair-value contracts. They could get things back on track in a few years, maybe, if they gave themselves more assets to work with. The time is now to cut their losses with Durant, whose value will only get lower from here.
 

95pro

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I think the idea was to run the team with two combo guards. Unfortunately, that hasn't materialized and the Suns didn't think they needed a more conventional point guard to stabilize the team.

Now they are paying the price.

Once book gives up the ball there’s no one else to facilitate the offense.
 
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