Nets @ Suns Wednesday game thread 12-13-2023

Vacard

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This team isn’t showing resilience to injury. Monti’s team actually won games when key players were out like Paul. Payne took over and did his thing like we never skipped a beat. Granted that finals one has excellent chemistry because they were healthy for most of the year but still.
 

taz02

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How does a team with Booker, KD and Beal lose to the Nets on a night when Nurkic has 15 and 22 ?

We have been waiting for Beal to save the team and frankly the problems seem to go beyond health.

Based on what we’ve seen so far does anyone think this is a championship team even if heathy?
 

wagon mound 464

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I'm not sold on coach Vogel yet, seems like 'musical bench' making too many substations, too fast with roll players. He's a good talker but owner
Matt I. is looking for wins. Time will tell.....
 

wagon mound 464

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How does a team with Booker, KD and Beal lose to the Nets on a night when Nurkic has 15 and 22 ?

We have been waiting for Beal to save the team and frankly the problems seem to go beyond health.


** Based on what we’ve seen so far does anyone think this is a championship team even if heathy?
** No,,nowhere near it. Bull shyt talk was the big 3 would put up 30-30-30 and the rest ???

Seems like its going to take 118-120+ to win games in this season. They need Grayson, Nukic, and Gordon to get the other 30.
 
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ajcardfan

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Need to see what this team looks like for a healthy 10-15 game stretch. Hopefully that stretch is coming up right now.

Beal does not have his legs right now and looks tired half the time he has been out there the last couple games. He will likely be looking more explosive after he gets his legs under him.

Of course, that requires the team to actually get and stay healthy and that has not been a thing so far. 13-11 isn't so bad when you consider the amount of games missed by key players.
It was entirely predictable that health was going to be a potential problem. Even the most likely outcome. I am not optimistic they can string 10-15 games together. Much less the rest of the season.
 

1982baskets

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As I've been saying for a while, the team lacks balance. They don't have enough two way players. If their offense is on with their better offense lineups (Including usually Grayson, Gordon) then their defense isn't enough. On the flip, if they play their defensive lineups, they usually lack offense.

All while we do not see any consistency in lineups due to health. It's painfully obvious with the play.

That being said, I think the Suns aren't as average as their record indicates at 13-11. They have lost a lot of close games, and also have had zero chemistry building momentum weeks. Meaning we haven't had a time where a core group of 5 players play together for a few weeks as starters. Even last night, we had the big 3, Nurk, but then didn't have Grayson or Gordom who round out our top 6. Our top 6 players are probably (not in order) Nurk, Durant, Beal, Grayson, Book and Gordon.

It's been a really tough year, hopefully things will pick up eventually. I would love for Jones to make a move where we get more starting level talent. It always seems every game, we're starting a player or two that shouldn't be a starter. Our bench, again, no one really on that bench deserves more than 10 minutes a game. Really after Grayson and Gordon, this team has no one that's worth playing on a consistent basis.
 

1982baskets

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At this point, I just hope we can get in to April healthy and in a play in situation, with Jones making a move by the trade deadline. Even if it is that kind of situation where the Suns are an 8th seed, I think they have enough talent that they can put it together at the right time. I don't have much high hopes for the regular season standings. We're already past the quarter mark and can't put forth a starting lineup.
 

1982baskets

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I mean, lets have a look at the Nuggets. Their starters - Joker is a MVP level talent. Murray a second option all-star level player. Pope is a starting level two way player. Their 2 other starters are talented two way players that can go off for big numbers in Gordon and MPJ. They don't seem to have a hole in their starting lineup. You can look at other better teams, same thing. For the Suns to contend at that level, they need to be able to put forth the same starting lineup game in and game out, and be able to have that core lineup where there isn't a big hole.

Perhaps Grayson or Gordon will make it as such. Because certainly Nurk, Durant, Beal, Book are worthy of being a quality lineup together. However until we don't get that 5th piece that makes it consistent, we're gonna keep seeing this.
 

95pro

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I don't think JJ is the problem with team construction. I mean we did have a finals team that was one of the most balanced Suns team I've seen since 93, which is why both teams made it that far. I'll be in the minority here, don't get me wrong as Ishbia is just so much of a better owner than Sarver...BUT we all know who pulled the trigger for the KD trade, its good Ishbia wants to bring one home but man he did go for it all and imo it was just too much too soon as we lost players and future assets. From there on, it was forced upon JJ to fill out the roster within the constraints of limited funds and assets.

Current roster construction isn't well balanced imo, Gordon/Allen mostly offense, JO/Goodwin/KBD mostly defense. I think the more versatile guys Metu/Little have shown they can make an impact and I like that they're playing more lately. Vogel did say he would tinker a lot with lineups before the season started. I think he wants to give some lineups some looks and see what he has. I think he gave BolBol one last shot to see something. Granted we are 20+ games into the season and we should know what each player brings by now but I'm willing to give it another 20 games as we have never been fully healthy as a team.

Personally from I've seen, we need shorter leashes on guys who are just not ON such as Gordon, Allen and Yuta. Define minutes for Little, Metu and KBD. Then just sit JO, Goodwin is just as impactful while actually providing a bit of offense. Guys who can go: Azibuke, Saben, Bol Bol, D Lee.
 

BirdGangThing

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I'm not that worried - sometimes Arizona fans remind me of that "it's my money and I want it now" commercial

Do have problems? Hell yeah
Do we have time? Hell yeah

Expecting us to be clicking on all cylinders in their very first game together ever - It was never gonna happen - and the Nets aren't scrubs - people talk about their record but neglect to mention they started out bad but have won like 6 out of their last 8 games now

We suck at crunch time - nobody knows who's supposed to do what - nobody knows who's supposed to defer to who

But our defense sucks during crunch time too - and that is where I'm looking at Vogel - he's not the one out there bricking 3s but he should have the defensive system starting to take form by now and it's simply not

Beal - I hope he doesn't get used to being side dressing because we wanted a main course - and that's what he's capable of - but you can't microwave cohesiveness so I'm going to give him a week or two before I start tripping

What I do like is how Vogel keeps trying new line ups - that ish is mad fun for me - really enjoying Metu as of late and I'm sure Nurk is too

Should we have won - yeah
Reason to panic button - nah
 

Peter Sheldon

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We need an athletic rebound grabbing center in trade badly. No matter the cost in terms of trades. It's bad now. Imagine if Nurk gets injured! Watching middle of the road teams get offensive rebound after offensive rebound is just sickening. Our injured bench players would not have helped this.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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I mean, lets have a look at the Nuggets. Their starters - Joker is a MVP level talent. Murray a second option all-star level player. Pope is a starting level two way player. Their 2 other starters are talented two way players that can go off for big numbers in Gordon and MPJ. They don't seem to have a hole in their starting lineup. You can look at other better teams, same thing. For the Suns to contend at that level, they need to be able to put forth the same starting lineup game in and game out, and be able to have that core lineup where there isn't a big hole.

Perhaps Grayson or Gordon will make it as such. Because certainly Nurk, Durant, Beal, Book are worthy of being a quality lineup together. However until we don't get that 5th piece that makes it consistent, we're gonna keep seeing this.
I know you’re trying to make a point but MPJ is not a two way player.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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in which they did swaps, so they can only get worse not better
Which are only triggered if the nets finish with a better record than us, which despite our rocky start to the season still remains unlikely.
 

BirdGangThing

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We need an athletic rebound grabbing center in trade badly. No matter the cost in terms of trades. It's bad now. Imagine if Nurk gets injured! Watching middle of the road teams get offensive rebound after offensive rebound is just sickening. Our injured bench players would not have helped this.
The Nets had 10 offensive rebounds
The Suns had 14 offensive rebounds

There was definitely a lack of Eubanks last night but we saw Nurk and Metu and KD start the game - that's not a small line up and I think it'll ultimately be one of our more successful line ups
 

BirdGangThing

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I think we did miss Gordon and Grayson last night and I think it's obvious where we missed them

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taz02

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Having all our guys healthy will certainly help, but the chances of our guys staying healthy through the playoffs seems slim to none. Even then I'm not sure a fully healthy team is championship team.

Point Book is a bad plan, it takes him away from his game and wears him out. IF Beal can stay healthy and take the bulk of the PG duties that would help.

Nurkic has been great but they must find a way to stop the opposing teams constant parade to the hoop.

We need health, a point guard other than Booker and an interior defender.
 

Proximo

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How does a team with Booker, KD and Beal lose to the Nets on a night when Nurkic has 15 and 22 ?

We have been waiting for Beal to save the team and frankly the problems seem to go beyond health.

Based on what we’ve seen so far does anyone think this is a championship team even if heathy?
Coaching is my conclusion.

Defense wasn't adequate, and rebounding not adequate, and offense was still not running smoothly.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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We are a bad defensive team and we are an absolutely terrible team in the clutch.

Don't know how these problems can be fixed with this roster... I expected us to be middling on defense but being flat out trash in the clutch has been a surprise. Booker is the only guy on the entire roster with above average play making skills, if the opposition keeps him from creating then everything falls apart. Trap Booker and we end up with desperation heaves or KD dribbling into the teeth of the defense for a contested fadeaway or a turnover.

This team was supposed to be a title contender but right now they are no where near that aspiration.

Worst of all, they're boring. Not a fun team to watch in the slightest...

Durant plays a particularly joyless brand of basketball that I have never been a fan of. Slow paced, deliberate and obvious... it is like watching a robot play tic tak toe. He might make a lot of his shots but there is zero excitement in watching a dude spend 15 seconds setting up a 12 foot fadeaway that you know he has a 50% chance of making... and a 25% chance of making in the clutch.

After the low value methodical 2 point jumper there is seemingly an overwhelming chance it will be followed up by a transition 3 or uncontested layup by the opposition, because no one on this team seems to know who they should be covering.
I keep seeing this sentiment that we are "absolutely terrible" on defense, but the numbers say we are mediocre.

If you look closely you can see that a lot of our issues are continuity related with players making the wrong reads and rotations. This is largely a combination of communication issues and guys assuming someone else is covering what they should be. These things will likely get better as the players get more time together.

The fact that they aren't even a bottom 10 defense with the amount of roster turnover we have is actually somewhat impressive IMO.
 

CardsSunsDbacks

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Something we failed miserably to do.

Twice.
Failed miserably? The first game 100% should have been a win if not for a fluke turnover in the last seconds.

2nd game we had a miserable start, but fought back and probably should have gotten the win as well.

You act like they came in and flat out kicked our ass in both games. Not what happened.
 

Proximo

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I'm not that worried - sometimes Arizona fans remind me of that "it's my money and I want it now" commercial

Do have problems? Hell yeah
Do we have time? Hell yeah

Expecting us to be clicking on all cylinders in their very first game together ever - It was never gonna happen - and the Nets aren't scrubs - people talk about their record but neglect to mention they started out bad but have won like 6 out of their last 8 games now

We suck at crunch time - nobody knows who's supposed to do what - nobody knows who's supposed to defer to who

But our defense sucks during crunch time too - and that is where I'm looking at Vogel - he's not the one out there bricking 3s but he should have the defensive system starting to take form by now and it's simply not

Beal - I hope he doesn't get used to being side dressing because we wanted a main course - and that's what he's capable of - but you can't microwave cohesiveness so I'm going to give him a week or two before I start tripping

What I do like is how Vogel keeps trying new line ups - that ish is mad fun for me - really enjoying Metu as of late and I'm sure Nurk is too

Should we have won - yeah
Reason to panic button - nah
I'm not panicking, my expectations have already dropped quite a bit.

I don't know this team just is not working on offense like it was supposed to. We seemed quite a bit better offensively last season, which really doesn't make much sense considering our overall talent is clearly better now.

I think it must be the coaching.
 

Proximo

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I keep seeing this sentiment that we are "absolutely terrible" on defense, but the numbers say we are mediocre.

If you look closely you can see that a lot of our issues are continuity related with players making the wrong reads and rotations. This is largely a combination of communication issues and guys assuming someone else is covering what they should be. These things will likely get better as the players get more time together.

The fact that they aren't even a bottom 10 defense with the amount of roster turnover we have is actually somewhat impressive IMO.
We are mediocre on defense - other than our rebounding which we really suck at - mainly long rebounds. Other teams don't seem to have that problem and you don't need big guys for long rebounds - seems like coaching to me.

Offense is what is letting us down. Double teaming is way too effective against us.
 

95pro

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I keep seeing this sentiment that we are "absolutely terrible" on defense, but the numbers say we are mediocre.

If you look closely you can see that a lot of our issues are continuity related with players making the wrong reads and rotations. This is largely a combination of communication issues and guys assuming someone else is covering what they should be. These things will likely get better as the players get more time together.

The fact that they aren't even a bottom 10 defense with the amount of roster turnover we have is actually somewhat impressive IMO.

Championship standards. Mediocre isn't good enough.



Considering everything, both sides of the court can be improved despite any personnel changes.
 
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