Knicks @ Suns Friday game thread 12-15-2023

1982baskets

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Vogel is a good defensive coach, but as shown in Orlando, here and the year he had Westbrook in the Lakers, if the team isn't talented on defense, he can't do much. His teams that do well on defense have the following formula

1) Very good rim protecting big with huge wingspan (High Blocks per game type)
2) Typically a good defensive on ball player at the point (Caruso, George Hill)
3) Length at the perimeter (at the 2/3).

Honestly, most good defensive teams tend to have those ingredients. Now tell me with our team if we have those pieces?

We don't have a particularly good defensive Center at the rim, we don't have length at the 2 or 3, and we don't have a starting level (or off the bench starting level) guard that can defend on the ball. Maybe Goodwin for a few moments.

The way this team was built was a pipedream that Beal turns into that player who defends and gives you superstar 3rd option which makes your offense so good that even average defense is enough. As it has turned out, Beal has been a complete dud due to injuries (and not sure he fits anyway) and our other 2 stars have also been hurt a lot. This has disconnected any shot at having that powerhouse offense we needed to get wins even with average defense.

What we needed to do with Vogel style coach is to get those defensive pieces. Instead we traded for stars and a lot of top heavy stuff, without much thought into what would work around Booker/Durant. Booker/Durant with elite defense is enough to win. Vogel won (or came to close) in 2 stops with just 2 stars (and Indiana not even 2 stars). Indiana they had the defense with Hibbert, Hill, George .... in LA Anthony Davis, Caruso, and other players brought that defense.

To me this 100% on Jones and ownership, not the coach. They haven't given him a roster with any defensive talent outside of Goodwin (who has barely playable NBA offense, meaning he is a liability on offense). The entire Beal trade shouldn't have been done, if they wanted defensive balance. They needed to instead trade for some defensive players. The Ayton trade, again, it did give you depth which you needed once you traded for Beal. However if you don't do that Beal trade, you can then instead trade for defensive rim protecting big, instead of Nurk. We needed to roster build with the needs of Vogel's defense, and having 2 stars like Book/Durant. James Jones messsed this up.
 

1982baskets

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There was a run of games where Durant and Booker were healthy, with Allen/Gordon. We played elite offense. That is the only way this team can get into the playoffs. They are not built to win with defense. They have to be incredibly good from offense. They have to play lineups where their 3 point shooting is potent around KD/Book. That's the only way they will make the playoffs this year. Forget championships without a balanced roster.

The best case I see is we stay above .500 and by trade deadline Jones makes a move to give the team some defense at the 2/3, plus a PG who can come off the bench and close games. How he does this with the limited assets the Suns have, I don't know. Beal is not going anywhere. Jones will need to flip Nurk/Allen into something that fits Vogel's defense, and also gives you a closing PG. Tough to see how he can get that without giving up first round picks he doesn't have.
 

nashman

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He also became the first player to score 50 and go 100% on 9 3 pointers. As bad as we played if he doesn’t have a historic night they still in this game. Just giving up way to many layups and 3s in general they look lost on D way to often! What the hell is this team practicing? Vogel looks like a joke this far for a supposed defensive guru…
 
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Mainstreet

Mainstreet

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I thought it was just me. Having the same issue on another site.

ETA: I'm wondering if "X" did something on their end to mess it up.


I always do a brief summary before my tweets. I figured if twitter ever went down, the basic content would still be there.

I've gone back to copying and pasting tweets until it gets fixed.
 

Superbone

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I always do a brief summary before my tweets. I figured if twitter ever went down, the basic content would still be there.

I've gone back to copying and pasting tweets until it gets fixed.
Good idea. It looks to be fixed already.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Yes, this is the problem.

I'm no expert but if you plan on not having to have a true PG don't you need a well defined offense. I don't think the triangle needed a PG. Without a floor general you need a great offensive system. Maybe Beal is the answer but I wouldn't bet on it.
Exactly. The triangle and the warriors offense didn’t need it. Those offenses exist.
 

nashman

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Exactly. The triangle and the warriors offense didn’t need it. Those offenses exist.
Yep makes you wonder why we’re paying Young big bucks for this trash? They better figure something out or this season is gonna get away from them quickly! Even without Beal with a decent system KD and Book with supporting cast should be a decent team! Injuries are absolutely killing this team right now and not just to the stars can’t have our best role players missing time as well what a total cluster right now!
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Actually they do.

It will never happen, but the correct decision would be to pull the plug on the Durant experiment now. It's not working, it's not going to work, and the longer the Suns hold onto him as a depreciating asset, the worse of a hole they are digging for themselves.

I'm not saying that Durant is the problem with this year's team. He isn't. He's playing at a high level and has been healthy. But he's not the solution either. He's not a leader, and for all of his alleged chemistry with Booker off the court, on the court they seem like strangers.

Beal is a sunk cost, but the rest of the roster has fair-value contracts. They could get things back on track in a few years, maybe, if they gave themselves more assets to work with. The time is now to cut their losses with Durant, whose value will only get lower from here.
I thought about this, but I think trading Durant is a disastrous course of action. Let’s see what it nets us:

We lose 2025, 2027, and 2029 draft picks.

We have swaps for the intervening first round draft picks, so bottoming out for better picks won’t be of value. They won’t be high picks like Oklahoma City had to acquire their top end talent.

Only a contender is going to trade for Durant. So we aren’t getting premium picks from them. It would have to be a third team that wants something the acquiring contender has on their roster. Such a deal isn’t all that likely.

Jettisoning Durant for picks means sticking book with an injured beal. That’s a nonstarter. He’s going to want to want out. Now he’s a premium trade asset in his prime. But again wherever he goes likely becomes better. In other words those picks aren’t likely to be premium either.

The only upside i foresee is all the money off the books. Makes the suns able to trade for bloated contracts with picks attached ala OKC.

In other words we end up awful but without our own premium picks to show for it. We end up with a buttload of additional picks, but they’re all likely in the 20+ range. And we have to wait until 2030 before our awfulness can actually pay off in any high draft pick.

I think we are stuck playing this out with changes like:

Maybe nurk’s contract can draw draw someone.

Trades around the edges.

New coach

It’s a bleak picture. But I’m still not totally sold that the current construction is a disaster. It is if the three just never play a string of games together. It is if this team never develops any cohesion. But we haven’t even been to see what that might be yet. Skeptical it comes together under Vogel at this point. But uncertain who can ride outta the wings as a replacement.
 

Ouchie-Z-Clown

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Vogel is a good defensive coach, but as shown in Orlando, here and the year he had Westbrook in the Lakers, if the team isn't talented on defense, he can't do much. His teams that do well on defense have the following formula

1) Very good rim protecting big with huge wingspan (High Blocks per game type)
2) Typically a good defensive on ball player at the point (Caruso, George Hill)
3) Length at the perimeter (at the 2/3).

Honestly, most good defensive teams tend to have those ingredients. Now tell me with our team if we have those pieces?

We don't have a particularly good defensive Center at the rim, we don't have length at the 2 or 3, and we don't have a starting level (or off the bench starting level) guard that can defend on the ball. Maybe Goodwin for a few moments.

The way this team was built was a pipedream that Beal turns into that player who defends and gives you superstar 3rd option which makes your offense so good that even average defense is enough. As it has turned out, Beal has been a complete dud due to injuries (and not sure he fits anyway) and our other 2 stars have also been hurt a lot. This has disconnected any shot at having that powerhouse offense we needed to get wins even with average defense.

What we needed to do with Vogel style coach is to get those defensive pieces. Instead we traded for stars and a lot of top heavy stuff, without much thought into what would work around Booker/Durant. Booker/Durant with elite defense is enough to win. Vogel won (or came to close) in 2 stops with just 2 stars (and Indiana not even 2 stars). Indiana they had the defense with Hibbert, Hill, George .... in LA Anthony Davis, Caruso, and other players brought that defense.

To me this 100% on Jones and ownership, not the coach. They haven't given him a roster with any defensive talent outside of Goodwin (who has barely playable NBA offense, meaning he is a liability on offense). The entire Beal trade shouldn't have been done, if they wanted defensive balance. They needed to instead trade for some defensive players. The Ayton trade, again, it did give you depth which you needed once you traded for Beal. However if you don't do that Beal trade, you can then instead trade for defensive rim protecting big, instead of Nurk. We needed to roster build with the needs of Vogel's defense, and having 2 stars like Book/Durant. James Jones messsed this up.
What defensive rim protecting big was available? Robert Williams? He’s more injury prone than our three.
 

Phrazbit

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I thought about this, but I think trading Durant is a disastrous course of action. Let’s see what it nets us:

We lose 2025, 2027, and 2029 draft picks.

We have swaps for the intervening first round draft picks, so bottoming out for better picks won’t be of value. They won’t be high picks like Oklahoma City had to acquire their top end talent.

Only a contender is going to trade for Durant. So we aren’t getting premium picks from them. It would have to be a third team that wants something the acquiring contender has on their roster. Such a deal isn’t all that likely.

Jettisoning Durant for picks means sticking book with an injured beal. That’s a nonstarter. He’s going to want to want out. Now he’s a premium trade asset in his prime. But again wherever he goes likely becomes better. In other words those picks aren’t likely to be premium either.

The only upside i foresee is all the money off the books. Makes the suns able to trade for bloated contracts with picks attached ala OKC.

In other words we end up awful but without our own premium picks to show for it. We end up with a buttload of additional picks, but they’re all likely in the 20+ range. And we have to wait until 2030 before our awfulness can actually pay off in any high draft pick.

I think we are stuck playing this out with changes like:

Maybe nurk’s contract can draw draw someone.

Trades around the edges.

New coach

It’s a bleak picture. But I’m still not totally sold that the current construction is a disaster. It is if the three just never play a string of games together. It is if this team never develops any cohesion. But we haven’t even been to see what that might be yet. Skeptical it comes together under Vogel at this point. But uncertain who can ride outta the wings as a replacement.

If someone was willing to give up even 80% of the value that we gave up for Durant, they would likely be similarly screwed.

People here thought we wouldn't give up anything but late firsts as a result of the trade... we gave up the 21st pick in year 1, the way this thing is trending that might be the weakest pick we surrender.

Come February, if we are still floundering like this and KD is still putting up these stats, then we should absolutely float him out there. Let someone else fall on the sword.

However, I don't think anyone would offer anything close to what we gave up. It's hard to imagine any decent team being able to scrap together the salary fodder and the picks without ruining themselves.
 

taz02

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We have little choice but to make it work with this group. We have leveraged our assets and future on it.

if it doesn't work, our choice will be, either flounder in mediocrity for a few years or blow it up trading Booker.
 

elindholm

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I thought about this, but I think trading Durant is a disastrous course of action. Let’s see what it nets us:

We lose 2025, 2027, and 2029 draft picks.

We have swaps for the intervening first round draft picks, so bottoming out for better picks won’t be of value. They won’t be high picks like Oklahoma City had to acquire their top end talent.

Only a contender is going to trade for Durant. So we aren’t getting premium picks from them. It would have to be a third team that wants something the acquiring contender has on their roster. Such a deal isn’t all that likely.

Jettisoning Durant for picks means sticking book with an injured beal. That’s a nonstarter. He’s going to want to want out. Now he’s a premium trade asset in his prime. But again wherever he goes likely becomes better. In other words those picks aren’t likely to be premium either.

The only upside i foresee is all the money off the books. Makes the suns able to trade for bloated contracts with picks attached ala OKC.

In other words we end up awful but without our own premium picks to show for it. We end up with a buttload of additional picks, but they’re all likely in the 20+ range. And we have to wait until 2030 before our awfulness can actually pay off in any high draft pick.

I think we are stuck playing this out with changes like:

Maybe nurk’s contract can draw draw someone.

Trades around the edges.

New coach

It’s a bleak picture. But I’m still not totally sold that the current construction is a disaster. It is if the three just never play a string of games together. It is if this team never develops any cohesion. But we haven’t even been to see what that might be yet. Skeptical it comes together under Vogel at this point. But uncertain who can ride outta the wings as a replacement.

I appreciate your thoughtful response.
 

Hoop Head

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One team I thought of when the "trade Durant" idea was floated was OKC. He has a history there, would likely push them over the top, and they're loaded with picks and young talent.

It's a matter of what they'd give up. We could make a deal work financially that involved KD for Chet, Dort, and Bertran (salary filler) plus some picks. Unfortunately I don't see them moving Chet. I'd do that trade though, even if we only got 2 picks out of it. Chet appears legit. Dort is Okogie that isn't a liability on offense, and Bertrans expires after next season. I don't know how they could swing the deal without including either Chet or Shai and I'd imagine Shai is a non starter, plus with Beal and Booker already here his fit isn't ideal.
 
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