Is Jeff Hornacek the right choice for the Suns?

[Phrazbit]

It sounds like "I'm interested!" than a musing.

Like I said, listen to the actual audio of the quote in its full context. It comes across very different than the print version.

 

[JCSunsfan]

It sounds like "I'm interested!" than a musing.

It would be a win-win. Jeff, the NBA's nice guy, returning to his alma mater, where he would be more effective developing and overseeing college players.

I should hope he is making overtures to Iowa State and preparing his resignation letter to the Suns, thanking them for the opportunity they gave him.

And I should hope that Sarver is discussing the lineup philosophy and the 2- or 3-tweener Guard offense with McD.

That's my hope!

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Absolute Zero]

This is turning into the Adrian Petersen thread. Except at least there, there is an actual chance of something happening. Here, we have 12 pages of posts, and Hornacek is not going anywhere for the near future. Sorry folks.

 

[Mainstreet]

This is turning into the Adrian Petersen thread. Except at least there, there is an actual chance of something happening. Here, we have 12 pages of posts, and Hornacek is not going anywhere for the near future. Sorry folks.

The twist would be if Hornacek is hired by Iowa State.

 

[Absolute Zero]

No chance in hell. Thibs isn't touching the Suns with a ten-foot pole.

If Drajic were still here, maybe he would though...

 

[sunsfan88]

That is just funny. Anyway, this is the quote that makes me disappointed about this game. Pathetic quote from Hornacek imo:

Jeff Hornacek's comments after the Pistons game

"We had some plays out there that we were supposed to run, the same play we've run for two years now. And some of our guys who have been here didn't know it. The concentration level tonight probably wasn't what it should've been. Our defensive assignments, we were switching things we weren't supposed to switch. We forgot to switch times when we were supposed to switch and that ends up getting you big."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...k-down-ugly-suns-offense-100-92-win/75102032/

Uh...what?

 

[ArizonaSportsFan]

Why is that surprising, or even condemning? Is the coach supposed to get new players? 3/5 of the starting lineup is quite questionable on BB IQ, and one of those gets by on sheer athleticism. It would be very frustrating coaching these guys, don't you think? I mean, they are professionals, and yet even I could tell they weren't very interested in the game.

 

[Errntknght]

What the heck do they do in practice if Jeff finds out in a game that the players don't know the offense or defense? I've been in favor of dispensing with him for some time and this sounds like he doesn't really want to have the job, but he doesn't want to come out and admit it. Its time to do him and the team a favor - find a different job for him to do.

 

[Catlover]

I don't know what to think of Jeff as a coach but our forwards and centers have been a huge disappointment. I don't think anyone would have anticipated they'd play this poorly.

Tyson is basically doing his job (defending and rebounding) but overall, as a group, they've been pretty bad. Hollinger's ratings have Markieff, PJ and Mirza as numbers 210, 225 and 287 respectively. Mirza has seen limited court time but PJ and Markieff are really killing us.

We don't fare any better looking at PER. Of our 7 front court players, Leuer has the highest at 16.7, Tyson at 16.3, Len at 13.5, Warren at 12.9, Markieff at 10.6, PJ at 9.4 and Mirza at 6. And it's not like our guards are tearing it up either. It's surprising that we're 3-3 given those numbers.

Anyway, I'm not quite ready to blame any of this on Jeff. I realize he might be at fault for all of it but right now I just can't tell if it's him, his system or the circumstances.

 

[sunsfan88]

What the heck do they do in practice if Jeff finds out in a game that the players don't know the offense or defense? I've been in favor of dispensing with him for some time and this sounds like he doesn't really want to have the job, but he doesn't want to come out and admit it. Its time to do him and the team a favor - find a different job for him to do.

This is what had me confused as well. A really bizarre thing for him to say.

He says they run the same play for two and I think everyone knows what play it is...the high pick and roll with Bledsoe.

If the players who have been here for so long don't even know how to run this play, isn't that on Hornacek for not having them prepared? Or do players on our team have terrible memory to not remember it?

And he says the concentration was low tonight...again, isn't it the HC's job to have the team prepared and play the players who are prepared?

How can they already lose concentration this early in the season? If this is how game 6 is, how will it be in game 16? Is Hornacek losing the locker room or something?

 

[Mainstreet]

This is what had me confused as well. A really bizarre thing for him to say.

He says they run the same play for two and I think everyone knows what play it is...the high pick and roll with Bledsoe.

If the players who have been here for so long don't even know how to run this play, isn't that on Hornacek for not having them prepared? Or do players on our team have terrible memory to not remember it?

And he says the concentration was low tonight...again, isn't it the HC's job to have the team prepared and play the players who are prepared?

How can they already lose concentration this early in the season? If this is how game 6 is, how will it be in game 16? Is Hornacek losing the locker room or something?

There is still time for the Suns to get the ship righted (afterall the Suns are 3-3) but I'm not sure if Hornacek is the coach to do it. I'm losing confidence in the team as a fan. I can't quite put my finger on it but the players do not play with confidence or awareness, especially on offense. One of the things that particularly bothered me about the Pistons game is that the Pistons were able to extend their defense way out on the court and the Suns could not take advantage even with Drummond on the bench. The Suns have to make other teams pay when they take away something.

 

[elindholm]

I don't know what to think of Jeff as a coach but our forwards and centers have been a huge disappointment. I don't think anyone would have anticipated they'd play this poorly.

Huh? The centers are outperforming expectations, and the forwards are about what I expected -- except that Leuer is better than I thought.

Seriously, what were the expectations that the frontcourt is falling well short of?

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I think Hornacek tries to get too smart, tricky, cute sometimes w/ his rotations. Just keep it simple - Don't do anything crazy, ESPECIALLY the 1st 2-3 weeks of the season. After a few weeks, if you see a certain matchup isn't working or one player isn't playing well, then change it up. His style of just throwing random guys out there is just confusing the rhythm of players for no reason.

I don't see why he isn't playing Chandler/Len 100% at the 5 spot ... He is adjusting for no reason. Right now if you total up those 2 minutes per game it comes out to 42 ... When the other team goes small at the 5', who cares? Stick w/ Len or TC. The other night against the Clippers, he subbed Len out because Josh Smith was at the 5'. That right there is not helping anyone's confidence on this team, especially Lens. What's Smith going to do against Len? Jack up 3 pointers - Would the matchup allow the CLips to run the offense through Smith? ... That would be what the Suns would want.

TC playing 35 minutes against DET was also ridiculous. And Len didn't even play fully the other 13 either. The point of having 2 solid centers is that 1 should never have to play over 30 minutes (Unless they're really balling or it's a B2B situation and you're saving 1 of them for the next night). IT'S SIMPLE, but Hornacek tries to be too smart, tricky, cute with it. Also to note, Len typically plays well against other big guys like Drummond (His best games last yr. were against guys like D. Jordan, Marc Gasol, Pekovic, etc ... And he's even bigger than last year) - So the fact Drummond played so much is an argument to play Len even more.

The eye test tells me Len has improved a lot since last year. Stats don't show it fully yet, but again - you can't judge a player when he's averaging like 14 mpg. That's tough to do. Offensively, Len's 1 bad game against Portland has skewed his offensive #'s. But he's either made himself open to ball-handlers or gotten open through a move of his own at a pretty decent rate for a big guy. Len deserves, yes DESERVES, to be playing at least 20 mpg routinely for at least 2-3 weeks. He's in his 3rd year, has improved ... But Hornacek for some reason is F**** Len over w/ his minutes, lol (And he's doing the same thing to Goodwin I might add, who deserves some opportunity too )

The point of the 1st month is to see what you've got, not to adjust minutes around based off matchups ... That should come later if needed

 

[Catlover]

Huh? The centers are outperforming expectations, and the forwards are about what I expected -- except that Leuer is better than I thought.

Seriously, what were the expectations that the frontcourt is falling well short of?

I know PER has it's limits but watching them play, it seems to me that it tells the same story I see . Tyson's PER is the lowest it's been since the 09-10 season. Markieff's is easily the lowest of his career. PJ's is significantly lower than any other season. Mizra's is also at the bottom. Len's is the same as last season, where's the supposed improvement? Warren is a full point behind his pace of last year.

Never in my worst nightmares did I expect our frontcourt to play anywhere near this poorly. Other than Chandler and Leuer they look like they're sleepwalking out there.

I was disappointed with PJ last season but thought with improved veteran leadership he'd return to form. But his defense has been a disappointment and his offense has been even worse than usual. Markieff is playing like the worst starting power forward in the game (Hollinger has him as the 52nd best power forward). Len has had one good half. He's had 4 games where he failed to score 5 points.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

I know PER has it's limits but watching them play, it seems to me that it tells the same story I see . Tyson's PER is the lowest it's been since the 09-10 season. Markieff's is easily the lowest of his career. PJ's is significantly lower than any other season. Mizra's is also at the bottom. Len's is the same as last season, where's the supposed improvement? Warren is a full point behind his pace of last year.

Never in my worst nightmares did I expect our frontcourt to play anywhere near this poorly. Other than Chandler and Leuer they look like they're sleepwalking out there.

I was disappointed with PJ last season but thought with improved veteran leadership he'd return to form. But his defense has been a disappointment and his offense has been even worse than usual. Markieff is playing like the worst starting power forward in the game (Hollinger has him as the 52nd best power forward). Len has had one good half. He's had 4 games where he failed to score 5 points.

I don't agree w/ you really - Sample size way too small to be talking about stats or PER. For example, Len's FG% is 41% - Even with that, his PER is at 13. If his % gets up to 50-55 like it will or you just take out that 1 game he was 1-8, his PER would be like 16+ probably ... That's what a small sample size would do.

My take on evaluating players this early in the season is ... I don't. It's too early to because if a player has 1 bad game or is in a shooting/rebounding/whatever slump, it will throw off his #'s ... That's why my biggest issue so far is w/ the coach, since he is doing just that. He's evaluating players based off matchups when the team doesn't even know what they have in the 1st place. The Center position is the biggest example. Play Len 20-22 mpg, and TC 26-28 for the 1st 10-15 games - See how it works. It's simple. Personally, I think it would work out just fine. When a coach adjust to "the other team", he is basically saying "I don't think this team is good enough to play our style, to stick with our rotation" ... And again, it's fine to think that AFTER 20-30 games & you see something isn't working. But not when the season is just starting.

 

[Catlover]

I don't agree w/ you really - Sample size way too small to be talking about stats or PER. For example, Len's FG% is 41% - Even with that, his PER is only 13. If his % gets up to 50-55 like it will or you just take out that 1 game he was 1-8, his PER would be like 16+ probably ... That's what a small sample size would do.

My take on evaluating players this early in the season is ... I don't. It's too early too ... That's why my biggest issue so far is w/ the coach, since he is doing just that. He's evaluating players based off matchups when the team doesn't even know what they have in the 1st place. The Center position is the biggest example. Play Len 20-22 mpg, and TC 26-28 for the 1st 10-15 games - See how it works. It's simple. Personally, I think it would work out just fine.

And I can't help but think your Len bias is directing your response. I agree the sample size is too small but I think it's too consistent across the board to not be relevant. Len has not shown the improvement we were hoping for/expecting. He's looked lost out there at times, far too many times. I honestly don't know how you can hold a different opinion. I'm not saying dump the guy but if you weren't expecting more from Len than he's given us so far, well, I don't know what to say.

 

[devilalum]

I'm still suspicious that a lot of this confusion is being caused by the negative energy of Morris. I think he backed down because he realized his approach was making him look bad but he's still angry and team chemistry is terrible.

 

[devilalum]

Morris being "sick" on Thursday, getting the tech early in the game etc. are signs.

I'm sure Hornecek is frustrated with the lack of professionalism.

 

[elindholm]

I know PER has it's limits but watching them play, it seems to me that it tells the same story I see . Tyson's PER is the lowest it's been since the 09-10 season.

And his age is the highest of his career. I'm happy with what Chandler is bringing.

Markieff's is easily the lowest of his career.

And that's a surprise? He's a headcase who's going to pout until he gets traded away. Is there a way to get the breakdown of his PER with or without Marcus on the floor? My guess is that he performed a lot better when his brother was out there too.

PJ's is significantly lower than any other season. Mizra's is also at the bottom.

I didn't know anything about Teletovic until watching a couple of preseason games, but it was instantly obvious that he's a stiff. As for Tucker, my impression is that he's been playing at his usual level, just not putting as many points on the board -- but I could be wrong.

Len's is the same as last season, where's the supposed improvement?

I didn't expect to see improvement six games in, especially now that his role has changed.

Warren is a full point behind his pace of last year.

That does surprise me. From what I've seen, I thought Warren was doing pretty well.

Never in my worst nightmares did I expect our frontcourt to play anywhere near this poorly.

Then you could be in for a long nightmare. They are what they are, except I guess for Warren, if it's true that his production is down from last year.

 

[Catlover]

I meant to ask this question in my last post but was interrupted by door to door intruders. How many people are happy with what they've seen from Len so far this season? I don't mean "what will he be" or "should we dump him" Just simply, has he performed well so far this season?

 

[sunsfan88]

I think Chandler's the second highest rebounding center in the NBA right now.

 

[elindholm]

I meant to ask this question in my last post but was interrupted by door to door intruders. How many people are happy with what they've seen from Len so far this season?

I'm satisfied. His rookie year, I thought he was hopeless, but last season he convinced me that there was a glimmer of hope. It's still only a glimmer, but it doesn't look to me like he's regressed. He has a slow learning curve and a low ceiling, so in that sense, everything is on schedule.

 

[Catlover]

And his age is the highest of his career. I'm happy with what Chandler is bringing.

I'm fine with Chandler, as I said, he's basically doing what we expected. He's giving us leadership, defense and rebounding. His defense hasn't been quite as impactful as I had hoped but maybe that's on the guards or the lackluster play of PJ and Markieff.

And that's a surprise? He's a headcase who's going to pout until he gets traded away. Is there a way to get the breakdown of his PER with or without Marcus on the floor? My guess is that he performed a lot better when his brother was out there too.

Yes, it's a surprise. It's a shock. I was hoping that he'd play his best in part because he's finally playing next to a real big man and in part so that he could draw interest in his quest to leave Phoenix. But I can see why others might have expected a dropoff. But he's playing the worst of his career, I just don't see how anyone could have expected that. Certainly the front office and coaching staff didn't or they would have benched him after the Dallas game (or before it).

I didn't know anything about Teletovic until watching a couple of preseason games, but it was instantly obvious that he's a stiff. As for Tucker, my impression is that he's been playing at his usual level, just not putting as many points on the board -- but I could be wrong.

I knew nothing about him either. I didn't expect his defense to be this poor but I thought that a shooter would actually show some shooting skills. At least he hasn't hurt us much (so far) other than wasting a roster spot.

I didn't expect to see improvement six games in, especially now that his role has changed.

I don't think his role is all that different than it's been in the past. It's not like he has a long history of starting. Last year, early in the season, he really showed promise but he eventually tailed off. Some of us excused it believing he just wasn't used to this much play. He had a really nice move in the first game and since then he's mostly looked lost. I didn't expect superstar but to me he still looks like a rookie most of the time.

That does surprise me. From what I've seen, I thought Warren was doing pretty well.

I think he's doing fine for his experience level and has earned more minutes. He certainly appears to be outplaying Tucker even granting the coaches see things I miss.

Then you could be in for a long nightmare. They are what they are, except I guess for Warren, if it's true that his production is down from last year.

I doubt they'll stay as they are. Either Tucker and Markieff will pick it up or they'll be on the bench pretty soon. I really doubt that there is another front court playing as poorly as ours is and that even with Chandler gobbling up boards.

 

[FutureSuperstar]

And I can't help but think your Len bias is directing your response. I agree the sample size is too small but I think it's too consistent across the board to not be relevant. Len has not shown the improvement we were hoping for/expecting. He's looked lost out there at times, far too many times. I honestly don't know how you can hold a different opinion. I'm not saying dump the guy but if you weren't expecting more from Len than he's given us so far, well, I don't know what to say.

Look, don't call me biased just because I disagree you. And really what did I disagree with? I just said it's too early to be making evaluations on players ... hardly a controversial statement.

So far Len especially it's hard to evaluate ... His minutes are all over the place. And the "lost out there at times" comment I don't agree w/ at all. I feel like you, and some people, feel like centers or players are just 100% at the right spot all the time ... That's not the case. I haven't noticed him being out of place any more than any other player or center.

 

[Catlover]

Look, don't call me biased just because I disagree you. And really what did I disagree with? I just said it's too early to be making evaluations on players ... hardly a controversial statement.

So far Len especially it's hard to evaluate ... His minutes are all over the place. And the "lost out there at times" comment I don't agree w/ at all. I feel like you, and some people, feel like centers or players are just 100% at the right spot all the time ... That's not the case. I haven't noticed him being out of place any more than any other player or center.

Look, don't get defensive just because you're biased. Guess what, we all are, it's human nature. If you haven't noticed him being out of place any more than any other center than you haven't watched him play. I'm not evaluating him for the future, I'm just talking about what he's done so far. And keep in mind, I'm one of Len's biggest supporters on this forum.