Is Jeff Hornacek the right choice for the Suns?

[sunsfan88]

He seems to want to play an almost exact copy of the "No defense-transition offense" style of play that MDA was famous for.

Difference being that MDA had Nash who did a great job of involving everyone on the floor where as our current guards...well, you know.

This team lacks any sort of discipline and leadership. We'll probably win today's game against NYK just because of how awful they are and off of talent on the roster. But this has something that has been a trend all season long. Bone headed moves like allowing Green to dribble the ball and bringing the ball up and not benching him even when he's 1-10 are just few examples. His old fashioned mentality on not playing or developing the rookies and sophomores is also annoying. Took him 20 games to realize that Len isn't any worse than Plumlee and that Len is actually young so he could potentially improve.

Not only that but Hornacek is among the worst coaches in the NBA in terms of drawing up at least half decent plays in pick and roll. Its nothing but iso and sometimes, a weak pick and roll.

I'm losing faith in Jeff Hornacek's ability to lead this team to success. Last year's 48 win team looks almost like a fluke at this point.

Suns right now are built on nothing but selfish and undisciplined basketball.

 

[95pro]

It's funny how we have an abundance of pg's and yet somehow Green or Tucker manages to bring up the ball only to have a turnover.

 

[95pro]

Coach's rotations are baffling too, as well as keeping Green in there while making all those mistakes.

 

[Superbone]

It's WAY too early to give up on Hornacek. Give him some time and a balanced roster before you get the pitchforks and torches out.

 

[BC867]

It's WAY too early to give up on Hornacek. Give him some time and a balanced roster before you get the pitchforks and torches out.

We would expect that to be the Suns Front Office approach. Especially since it is they who put together this unbalanced roster for him to manage.

If and when trade(s) bring our roster back to NBA-competitive condition (not just now, but for any game -- regular season or playoffs), sometime thereafter will be the time to assess if Jeff can deal with it.

Unless the Front Office has the skills to anticipate whether, based on what he has shown, he is the one to move forward with it.

If I remember it right, when Utah needed a Head Coach, they let Jeff move on.

As much as I liked him as a player, even with an unbalanced roster, he is showing the same weak approach to the overall game as D'Antoni.

Slow in developing young players and coaching consistent defense. "Some time" isn't going to change that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We would expect that to be the Suns Front Office approach. Especially since it is they who put together this unbalanced roster for him to manage.

If and when trade(s) bring our roster back to NBA-competitive condition (not just now, but for any game -- regular season or playoffs), sometime thereafter will be the time to assess if Jeff can deal with it.

Unless the Front Office has the skills to anticipate whether, based on what he has shown, he is the one to move forward with it.

If I remember it right, when Utah needed a Head Coach, they let Jeff move on.

As much as I liked him as a player, even with an unbalanced roster, he is showing the same weak approach to the overall game as D'Antoni.

Slow in developing young players and coaching consistent defense. "Some time" isn't going to change that.

That's not exactly what happened. They promoted Corbin but he'd been an assistant there for 7 or 8 years. Jeff had just joined the staff and had very little experience. Remember that Jeff took time off from the game to raise his kids. I don't know what he is as a Coach but he's the son of a coach and was always considered to be a very smart player so I'll remain hopeful.

Steve

 

[BC867]

That's not exactly what happened. They promoted Corbin but he'd been an assistant there for 7 or 8 years. Jeff had just joined the staff and had very little experience. Remember that Jeff took time off from the game to raise his kids. I don't know what he is as a Coach but he's the son of a coach and was always considered to be a very smart player so I'll remain hopeful.

Steve

Thanks, Steve. I didn't have time to research it before posting.

I'll remain hopeful for Jeff, too. We don't really have a choice.

 

[SirStefan32]

In my opinion, Hornacek is not to blame. I think that he has very clear direction from McD, Babby, and Sarver on who to play, how to play, and what his goals are. "Dragic is going to be in LA next year, so you need to make sure Bledsoe and IT are happy. We need to justify the Morris contracts, and your number one priority is to make playoffs" would be my guess as to what he's been told.

 

[AzStevenCal]

In my opinion, Hornacek is not to blame. I think that he has very clear direction from McD, Babby, and Sarver on who to play, how to play, and what his goals are. "Dragic is going to be in LA next year, so you need to make sure Bledsoe and IT are happy. We need to justify the Morris contracts, and your number one priority is to make playoffs" would be my guess as to what he's been told.

I don't think there's a chance in the world he's been told those things. And if I'm wrong, I don't think there's a chance in the world this franchise will ever turn it around.

Steve

 

[BC867]

In my opinion, Hornacek is not to blame. I think that he has very clear direction from McD, Babby, and Sarver on who to play, how to play, and what his goals are. "Dragic is going to be in LA next year, so you need to make sure Bledsoe and IT are happy. We need to justify the Morris contracts, and your number one priority is to make playoffs" would be my guess as to what he's been told.

I don't think there's a chance in the world he's been told those things.

I don't know what he is as a Coach but he's the son of a coach and was always considered to be a very smart player so I'll remain hopeful.

I am curious how you can remain hopeful for Jeff unless you believe that he is being manipulated/limited by McD/Babby/Sarver.

If he is closing games with a Small Forward, Wing and 3 Point Guards on his own and expects to become a playoff team in the NBA, there is no hope for him.

I agree with Stefan. The Front Office has to save face for its goofy moves and goofy roster. I feel sorry for Jeff. He is the skapegoat.

Cotton used to say that Horny reminded him of his newspaper delivery boy. He was quiet and mild mannered. A perfect foil for our eccentric owner and powers that be.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't why people constantly talk about the unbalanced roster Jeff has been saddled with. I'm virtually certain he was a major player in the decisions that led to it, so I'm not giving him a pass until there is some evidence to the contrary. If I'm wrong he's a wimp and McD is an idiot. Of course, I'm wrong my fair share of the time.

I'm extremely disappointed in Hornacek's coaching. I had very high expectations on both ends of the floor. Last year I felt I didn't complain too much because of the team's success and the fast break was working modestly well. I did mention a few times the simple minded offense and the lack of playing time for Len, Ish Smith(early on) and Goodwin.
I didn't like much anything that transpired over the summer - acquiring Tolliver, failing to get Ed Davis, the amount we paid Bledsoe and the Morri. I was neutral about IT as I could imagine how it might work out and there was the chance Bled would leave - plus the price was right. Worst case we had a much better shooting version of Ish. Drafting Warren was a good thing, of course, and maybe Ennis - who knows.

Now, the fastbreak is limping, the offense is as limited as ever, Kieff is rarely driving inside, PF is generating minimal rebounds, Warren and Goodwin languish on the bench even if Green is not contributing and the team is losing close games. Tolliver is just what his history suggested he would be. The lone bright spot is Len - relatively speaking.

I keep thinking about the pinch post maneuver with Markieff - he's hitting his midrange jumper so well it would challenging to defend and it would give him better driving opportunities - depending on how they elect to defend. Besides he'd have something keeping him involved - and away from the three point line.

Jeff could turn it around but I'm far from convinced he's a good long term coach.

 

[BC867]

I don't why people constantly talk about the unbalanced roster Jeff has been saddled with. I'm virtually certain he was a major player in the decisions that led to it ...

I was giving Jeff the benefit of the doubt. I find it to be the only way to remain hopeful and not give up on rooting for the Suns this season.

Jeff could turn it around but I'm far from convinced he's a good long term coach.

Which is why I said in the other thread that we'll know what kind of a Coach Jeff is if and when the Suns undo this 3-Unhappy-Lead-Point Guard mess, forcing everyone else up a position, frustrating them as well.

Right now, at the close of games, there is only one happy Suns player, if any at all. The Point Guard who gets to play 30-32 minutes at his position.

Well, perhaps Green, too. Who doesn't seem to get reprimanded when he brings the ball up the court with at least two Point Guards on the floor.

It would be comical if it weren't so sad. Our Suns aren't living up to the billing that the NBA is the greatest professional basketball league in the world.

 

[Superbone]

You are SO melodramatic, BC!

 

[BC867]

You are SO melodramatic, BC!

'Guess so. Yeah, but Melo plays on the Knicks.

 

[devilalum]

I don't know how you can properly evaluate his performance given the personnel he's had to work with. Same old story, you can't fire the players for being too short, too weak too........

 

[BC867]

I don't know how you can properly evaluate his performance given the personnel he's had to work with.

OK, I'll say it again.

Which is why I said in the other thread that we'll know what kind of a Coach Jeff is if and when the Suns undo this 3-Unhappy-Lead-Point Guard mess, forcing everyone else up a position, frustrating them as well.

But if, as Errntknght said ...

I don't why people constantly talk about the unbalanced roster Jeff has been saddled with. I'm virtually certain he was a major player in the decisions that led to it.

...if that is true, then Jeff's judgement as a Coach comes into question, too.

If I had been brought in to manage that situation, or found it forced it upon me, I would have certainly said to the owner and GM, "There is no way that I or any other Coach can keep three lead Point Guards happy. Or be competitive playing 4 out of 5 people out of position to accommodate it."

 

[sunsfan88]

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TIER 7: I'LL GET MY OWN BUCKET, THANK YOU

Here we are, at the bottom of the pyramid. These are the teams that really struggle to share the ball. The 76ers, Lakers, Kings, and Hornets seem to have more of a focus on this coming offseason than sharing the ball right now. The Thunder and the Suns are on a completely different page. They are currently fighting for the exact same playoff spot. Coaching and system have a lot to do with their placement on this pyramid. Both their offenses are among the lowest in number of Set Screens per Chance.

The Raptors and the Suns are two teams that stick out most from this graphic. They are very effective scoring teams but rank lower in facilitation.

This article really is a great read, it goes into much more detail than the tidbits that I've posted here. I highly recommend giving it a read.

http://www.vantagesports.com/#story/VLWbbSMAABhrQX0w/the-passing-pyramid

Mike Budenholzer was the guy who I really wanted us to get when we let go of Hunter and damn I'm jealous that his Hawks lead all categories in terms of passing the ball and they are a top 3 team in the league because of it.

The Thunder's ranking on here is not quite accurate because while it is true that they played like that, it was mostly when KD/Westbrook were out and they had guys like Reggie Jackson and PJ3 doing the scoring for them.

 

[Hoop Head]

For the Suns to be that ranked that low, especially amongst some of the worst overall teams in the league, while it's 3 best players are PG's is terrible. Of course it's debatable if those are the teams 3 best players but they're all starting caliber point guards and are definitely 3 of the 5 best players on the team right now.

Having IT thrown into the mix seems to have had a negative impact on how both the starting guards play and on the second unit as well, at least in comparison to last season. Having a starting caliber scoring PG as the 6th man doesn't encourage either Bledsoe or Dragic to play as a facilitator more because if the team isn't hitting shots one of those two will most likely sit for IT's instant offense. Whenever Thomas is on the floor he seems to take over the PG role moving either Bledsoe and/or Dragic off of the ball completely. Isaiah plays more ISO ball and looks to score before setting up a play for anyone else more than Eric or Goran do. When IT & Green are on the court if the ball ends up in either of their hands chances are they are the last Suns player to get the ball on the possession. That hurts the second unit and other players on the court when it comes to ball movement because they are less likely to get touches or shots then so I imagine that causes them to play a similar style.

IT is too much of a score first guard and has too much ego and talent to be 6th man in that sort of system. If we moved IT and let Ennis get 10 minutes a game while allowing more time for Bledsoe & Dragic to run the offense alone in stretches it would help with ball movement overall, I believe. I think Wright's addition has helped in terms of front court depth and Hornacek playing him with Plumlee the other night showed that he'll use him at C or PF which takes away from some of Marcus and Kieff's minutes.

It's hard to judge whether it's Hornacek's "system/style" at fault or if he's just trying to get the most out of what he has. The team is winning so there is that but having such poor ball movement will only lead to early playoff exit. The Thunder have more success with little ball movement because they have 2 of the best scorers in the game, Durant and Westbrook are 2 of the top 5-10 players in the league. Both can create their own shot and score at will against just about anyone. Last season the dual PG system seemed to work and it's effective this season as well but not nearly in the same way as last year. The team hasn't gotten better compared to last year overall although the individual talent has gotten better.

 

[Mainstreet]

Mike Budenholzer was the guy who I really wanted us to get when we let go of Hunter and damn I'm jealous that his Hawks lead all categories in terms of passing the ball and they are a top 3 team in the league because of it.

And Mike Budenholzer just happens to be a native of Holbrook, Arizona no less.

 

[Mainstreet]

For the Suns to be that ranked that low, especially amongst some of the worst overall teams in the league, while it's 3 best players are PG's is terrible. Of course it's debatable if those are the teams 3 best players but they're all starting caliber point guards and are definitely 3 of the 5 best players on the team right now.

Having IT thrown into the mix seems to have had a negative impact on how both the starting guards play and on the second unit as well, at least in comparison to last season. Having a starting caliber scoring PG as the 6th man doesn't encourage either Bledsoe or Dragic to play as a facilitator more because if the team isn't hitting shots one of those two will most likely sit for IT's instant offense. Whenever Thomas is on the floor he seems to take over the PG role moving either Bledsoe and/or Dragic off of the ball completely. Isaiah plays more ISO ball and looks to score before setting up a play for anyone else more than Eric or Goran do. When IT & Green are on the court if the ball ends up in either of their hands chances are they are the last Suns player to get the ball on the possession. That hurts the second unit and other players on the court when it comes to ball movement because they are less likely to get touches or shots then so I imagine that causes them to play a similar style.

IT is too much of a score first guard and has too much ego and talent to be 6th man in that sort of system. If we moved IT and let Ennis get 10 minutes a game while allowing more time for Bledsoe & Dragic to run the offense alone in stretches it would help with ball movement overall, I believe. I think Wright's addition has helped in terms of front court depth and Hornacek playing him with Plumlee the other night showed that he'll use him at C or PF which takes away from some of Marcus and Kieff's minutes.

It's hard to judge whether it's Hornacek's "system/style" at fault or if he's just trying to get the most out of what he has. The team is winning so there is that but having such poor ball movement will only lead to early playoff exit. The Thunder have more success with little ball movement because they have 2 of the best scorers in the game, Durant and Westbrook are 2 of the top 5-10 players in the league. Both can create their own shot and score at will against just about anyone. Last season the dual PG system seemed to work and it's effective this season as well but not nearly in the same way as last year. The team hasn't gotten better compared to last year overall although the individual talent has gotten better.

I agree with most of what you have to say about IT. IMO, he was signed as an insurance policy for Bledsoe but he also adds offense off the bench for the Suns. They may miss that if they trade him. Still, I think trading him is the right long term answer if he can fetch the Suns an asset like a first round pick or be included in a larger trade. Also one has to ponder if he might be needed as an insurance policy if Dragic does not return.

 

[hcsilla]

For the Suns to be that ranked that low, especially amongst some of the worst overall teams in the league, while it's 3 best players are PG's is terrible. Of course it's debatable if those are the teams 3 best players but they're all starting caliber point guards and are definitely 3 of the 5 best players on the team right now.

Having IT thrown into the mix seems to have had a negative impact on how both the starting guards play and on the second unit as well, at least in comparison to last season. Having a starting caliber scoring PG as the 6th man doesn't encourage either Bledsoe or Dragic to play as a facilitator more because if the team isn't hitting shots one of those two will most likely sit for IT's instant offense. Whenever Thomas is on the floor he seems to take over the PG role moving either Bledsoe and/or Dragic off of the ball completely. Isaiah plays more ISO ball and looks to score before setting up a play for anyone else more than Eric or Goran do. When IT & Green are on the court if the ball ends up in either of their hands chances are they are the last Suns player to get the ball on the possession. That hurts the second unit and other players on the court when it comes to ball movement because they are less likely to get touches or shots then so I imagine that causes them to play a similar style.

IT is too much of a score first guard and has too much ego and talent to be 6th man in that sort of system. If we moved IT and let Ennis get 10 minutes a game while allowing more time for Bledsoe & Dragic to run the offense alone in stretches it would help with ball movement overall, I believe. I think Wright's addition has helped in terms of front court depth and Hornacek playing him with Plumlee the other night showed that he'll use him at C or PF which takes away from some of Marcus and Kieff's minutes.

It's hard to judge whether it's Hornacek's "system/style" at fault or if he's just trying to get the most out of what he has. The team is winning so there is that but having such poor ball movement will only lead to early playoff exit. The Thunder have more success with little ball movement because they have 2 of the best scorers in the game, Durant and Westbrook are 2 of the top 5-10 players in the league. Both can create their own shot and score at will against just about anyone. Last season the dual PG system seemed to work and it's effective this season as well but not nearly in the same way as last year. The team hasn't gotten better compared to last year overall although the individual talent has gotten better.

Good post.

 

[sunsfan88]

And Mike Budenholzer just happens to be a native of Holbrook, Arizona no less.

Ah what could have been...

 

[itlnsunsfan]

Why are we criticizing Hornacek for his offense when this offense is one of the best in the league? I know it may sound odd with 3 heavily used point guards, but maybe we have a collection of players that score better with less passing. We're really not sure. What I am sure of is Hornacek was runner-up last year in Coach of The Year. To me, as far as the offense goes, when we're ranked as highly as we are offensively, Hornacek gets the benefit of the doubt. Now, if you want to talk defense, where we're ranked about average, maybe criticism is warranted, but offensively, no. Maybe Budenholzer is better, maybe not, but we have one of the most promising, "relatively young" coaches in the league. Be happy.

 

[sunsfan88]

Why are we criticizing Hornacek for his offense when this offense is one of the best in the league? I know it may sound odd with 3 heavily used point guards, but maybe we have a collection of players that score better with less passing. We're really not sure. What I am sure of is Hornacek was runner-up last year in Coach of The Year. To me, as far as the offense goes, when we're ranked as highly as we are offensively, Hornacek gets the benefit of the doubt. Now, if you want to talk defense, where we're ranked about average, maybe criticism is warranted, but offensively, no. Maybe Budenholzer is better, maybe not, but we have one of the most promising, "relatively young" coaches in the league. Be happy.

When we're a ball hog/selfish offense, it means we're being forced to put extra effort on offense to try and score because one guy is trying to do everything. Plus I'm talking about in relation to the half court offense (Suns are definitely not even a top 10 team imo in half court offense not based off stats but based on my eyes) while a lot of our pts are off transition ball.

Having to put extra effort on offense doing all the iso stuff means that guy is gonna be extra tired on defense on the other end giving up plays.

Plus players always feel more motivated to play defense when they feel like they are also involved in the offense. Doesn't mean everyone has to shoot the ball, at least if they get their touches.

So yes the iso ball stuff does have an effect on our defense as well.

 

[AzStevenCal]

When we're a ball hog/selfish offense, it means we're being forced to put extra effort on offense to try and score because one guy is trying to do everything. Plus I'm talking about in relation to the half court offense (Suns are definitely not even a top 10 team imo in half court offense not based off stats but based on my eyes) while a lot of our pts are off transition ball.

Having to put extra effort on offense doing all the iso stuff means that guy is gonna be extra tired on defense on the other end giving up plays.

Plus players always feel more motivated to play defense when they feel like they are also involved in the offense. Doesn't mean everyone has to shoot the ball, at least if they get their touches.

So yes the iso ball stuff does have an effect on our defense as well.

I agree with this part but the rest of this is too black and white (or too extreme). You make it seem like all we do is isolate and that no one passes. We go one-on-one more than we should but it's nowhere near all we do and it's nowhere near as frequent as it was back in November. Now, players are moving without the ball (especially Goran) and we are passing it around for a better shot more often. But we have players whose strength lies in taking their man off the dribble so it's no surprise we do it more than most teams.

And players don't necessarily run down because a team is going iso all the time. Actually it seems to me it should work the other way. If a player is out there pounding the ball looking for their opening or their shot it ought to give the other 4 guys plenty of time to rest up for their next defensive stand.

As for scoring a lot of points off of transition, well, I refuse to see that as anything other than a good thing. But there again, you make it out to be bigger than it is. Yes, we are second in fast break points behind Golden State. But we only average a grand total of 6 more fast break points per game than the team that's stuck right in the middle of the pack.

Steve