Is Jeff Hornacek the right choice for the Suns?

[sunsfan88]

Hornacek is assiatant coach material. If you hear him talk, he has the right ideas on many things and he's very player friendly.

However, he simply does not have the hard nosed mentality that a HC needs. He's too much a push over.

I'd guess that lazy players love Hornacek because they can do whatever they want and he won't get mad or anything. Even his big tough "technical rule" lasted all of like 2-3 games before he caved in and got rid of it.

Even in games, he has a poor guy hapless look on his face in cases where other better HCs like Kerr or Budenholzer or whoever would be losing their mind on the player.

Like Gentry (who is probably the best assistant in the NBA right now), Hornacek is suited for an assiatnt coach job, not HC imo.

 

[sunsfan88]

Before casting Hornacek out, I hope the organization takes a serious look at the question of what they think a new coach would do differently. My perspective is that the problems with this franchise and its roster dwarf the consideration of who the coach is. Their credibility is already bad enough; fire a coach for no good reason, and it gets even worse.

What does this mean?

It was Hornacek's idea to have this dual PG thing. He said it himself that right when he took the job, he loved the idea of pairing Dragic with another PG so that they can run the offense even faster with another ball handler. He pitched this idea to McD who loved it and then traded for Bledsoe.

Think about it, Ryan McD is coming from Boston, what the heck does he know about dual PG system? All they cared about in Boston was defense, complete opposite of the system we run now.

In Babby's years as executive, Suns never had a dual PG system either. Same with Sarver.

Hornacek? He had tons and tons of experience (and success) playing with KJ hence why he wanted to run that so badly in Phoenix.

You can't just blame the FO and excuse blame from Hornacek. This is what he wanted.

 

[slinslin]

Boston is employing the same dual PG system with Bradley, Smart and Thomas.

The dual PG system is not the problem btw. That is just a label.

There is no sane basketball coach who would not want to run that because if you look at it a PG should be able to do everything a shooting guard can plus playmaking.
The talent pool at the 2 guard position simply is small that more teams are starting to play 2 players together thare labelled Point Guards.

If it was Bledsoe/Harden instead of Bledsoe/Dragic(Knight) you would have no problem with this eventhough it would be the exact same "system" because there is no reason why you would not want your 2nd guard to also be a playmaker.

The only thing I would complain about that the Suns are forcing the issue on this by playing 2 PG together of which neither is a reliable shooter or in general off the ball player.

 

[Errntknght]

What does this mean?

It was Hornacek's idea to have this dual PG thing. He said it himself that right when he took the job, he loved the idea of pairing Dragic with another PG so that they can run the offense even faster with another ball handler. He pitched this idea to McD who loved it and then traded for Bledsoe.

Think about it, Ryan McD is coming from Boston, what the heck does he know about dual PG system? All they cared about in Boston was defense, complete opposite of the system we run now.

In Babby's years as executive, Suns never had a dual PG system either. Same with Sarver.

Hornacek? He had tons and tons of experience (and success) playing with KJ hence why he wanted to run that so badly in Phoenix.

You can't just blame the FO and excuse blame from Hornacek. This is what he wanted.

I've long been puzzled why folks on here talked about the FO forcing an unbalanced roster on Hornacek. From the get go he said he wanted to fast break and liked two PGs because there were two targets for outlet passes. He and McD both said they were on the same page when it came to the style they wanted. The lineups he puts on the floor certainly indicate he likes having two or more PGs on the floor at once.

I would not go so far as to say he was the one that picked the players to go after but if he'd dug in his heels one this guy or that, I'd guess his desires would have been respected. Maybe he went along on some acquisitions so as not to rock the boat but that is hardly a desirable trait in a HC.

I've complained about a fairly lengthy list of things Jeff has done and not done, many of them quite minor but to me the evidence is quite overwhelming that he is not a first rate coach.
1. He can't get the players to do what he wants. And, worse yet, he complains about their failure to do it to the media. For example, he started this season saying he was going have the team fast breaking after made baskets - nothing like that happened and fast break tailed off. He backtracked quickly on his technical foul policy and they continue to be a problem.
2. He wasn't tuned into the way key players felt about they way he was using them - Dragic and Thomas. Another way of saying he didn't get the player buy-in that every system requires for it to succeed.
3. He didn't recognize that the system he was using for a model - his time as SG alongside Stockton - didn't fit the players he had as none of them were remotely as capable as John Stockton at running an offense. A guy like Stockton you don't want to tie down to a playbook but our combo guards needed the structure it would provide them.
4. He's taking too hard of a line about not having defined roles - some people do fine without them but others need them to feel comfortable. I believe a good coach has to be able to deal with both types.
5. Rebounding is essential to a fast break team and Jeff seems to be content to have quite weak rebounders in his front court.

When we hired Hornacek I said I was confident he's be a good HC - the only question was would he be great. I was wrong.

 

[mojorizen7]

Well if you guys are right, and Hornacek IS responsible for this most recent chapter of futile style of basketball then yeah, he needs to go.
I just have a hard time believing that McD would come here from Boston where they did things right, and decide to be a part of it.

IDK. It's been a mess for awhile(JMO) but fans were entertained so it didn't matter. Now it's a mess and no one is entertained or even likes the players.

Changes are no doubt looming, but who is really in control of this team and it's (lack) of direction? I wish Sarver would sell [sigh]

 

[Phrazbit]

I feel like a lot of people are arguing both sides of a coin here. If the roster is terribly flawed AND Hornacek is a bad coach with no control over this flawed roster... then why has the team managed to stick around in the playoff race two years in a row despite the monstrous lineups in the West?

I'm not as high on Horny as I was a year ago, but its because of the behavior of some of the players, not so much the performance of the team. Furthermore, and as I've mentioned over and over and the stats bear out convincingly, the duel PG situation has not been the problem, if anything its covered up the more serious flaws of the roster. Those being our lack of outside shooting, rebounding and generally poor quality and depth in the front court.

IMO the real determining factor in the current climate was last year's surprise success. I still think the intention was to be terrible, but the Suns won some trades last year in landslides, Hornacek coached virtually everyone to career years and they ended up with a squad that was a league darling. It left the team in an awkward spot. Its hard to justify breaking up a young team that just won 48 games, but at the same time its hard to see the talent on that roster having a much higher ceiling. And it turns out that probably was the ceiling, especially with Frye's departure leaving a leadership and shooting void.

Success came too soon, too easy, I think its a forgivable sin. Let the current powers try to sort things out this summer, I think a serious overhaul is going to take place, one that was intended a year ago but circumstances delayed.

 

[Iceman]

https://twitter.com/sportingnews/status/586186877473951744

 

[slinslin]

I still can't believe we did not trade him at the deadline.

It was obvious that Archie Goodwin needed to take his minutes.

The only explanation was that there were no offers but I thought that was unlikely that no team was willing to give up even a decent 2nd round pick for Green.

 

[TJ]

Let's recap the season:

Significant number of technical fouls called on players

Marcus getting in Hornacek's face and yelling at him on the bench.

Archie questioning the lack of defined roles on the team

Markieff questioning fan support

One of the most loyal players, Dragic, saying that he doesn't trust the team any longer.


It's fair to question how much control Jeff has over the team and if the team truly respects him as a leader. There is clearly a lack of discipline and the team plays listlessly at times. It really is discouraging to watch this team attempt to play basketball.

 

[Mainstreet]

Let's recap the season:

Significant number of technical fouls called on players

Marcus getting in Hornacek's face and yelling at him on the bench.

Archie questioning the lack of defined roles on the team

Markieff questioning fan support

One of the most loyal players, Dragic, saying that he doesn't trust the team any longer.


It's fair to question how much control Jeff has over the team and if the team truly respects him as a leader. There is clearly a lack of discipline and the team plays listlessly at times. It really is discouraging to watch this team attempt to play basketball.

Then you add in Hornacek's criticism of Green and his agent speaking out, it just throws more fuel in the fire. I think there has been enough disgruntled players that one has to start looking at the coach.

See Andrew Joseph's article an azcentral plus the link provided by Iceman.

http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...nt-fires-back-at-suns-jeff-hornacek/25514213/

 

[Phrazbit]

Green is every bit as bad as Horny claims. We give up 113 points per 100 with him on the court and 105 without him. That is a mammoth differential. Green should be thankful he came across Hornacek, before last season Jeff Green's career trajectory had him aimed at China.

 

[BC867]

Is Jeff Hornacek the right choice for the Suns?

Jeff Hornacek is the right choice for this Suns Front Office.

This Suns Front Office is not the right choice for the Suns.

Ergo, Jeff Hornacek is not the right choice for the Suns.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Kerr is now a Head Coach and not a GM. However, I think you bring forth an interesting thought. Maybe Kerr took what he learned from SSOL and then added defense. Only Sarver, Babby, McDonough and Hornacek know if the problem rests the with the HC or bad moves by McDonough.

That's what Kerr wanted DAntoni to do and he bolted. GS is what SSOL could have been.

 

[sunsfan88]

Gerald Green's agent has some harsh words for Phoenix Suns coach Hornacek

"It's completely unfair to misrepresent Gerald and his game like this," he said. "You're talking about a player that wants to win at any cost and is a tremendous locker guy and teammate. I don't see the benefit for the coach to go about things this way."

Bradbury said the numbers show Green is not a terrible defensive player, adding that the team won plenty of games last year with him in the lineup.

"It's unfortunate because the team isn't where some people thought it would or should be at this point in the season," he said. "I'm not sure why that falls on one guy all of a sudden, especially when they have known all along what they have with Gerald. He can score, and can score a lot quickly, when you give him the minutes. He brings it on the defensive end, consistent with what the team brings as a unit. But when you hear the coach saying he is so bad that he can't be on the floor? That's nonsense. You have to wonder where that comes from and why."

Green has seen regular minutes over the last few games, and rewarded the Suns with scoring outputs of 24, 15 and 30 points.

This is not the first time the Suns' coaching staff or front office has come under a bit of fire over a player's role, as prior to the trade deadline Goran Dragic said he had lost trust in the team's management.

He was traded away within days of those comments, and with Green set to become a free agent, it's possible he will not be back, either.

According to Bradbury, though, the Suns could have already moved on from Green if that was their goal all along.

"There were multiple teams that wanted him and were attempting to structure a deal if that was the direction in which we all wanted to go," he said. "Teams were willing to give up assets in significant offers. The Suns did not want to trade him. They wanted him last year and they wanted him at the deadline. They didn't have a problem with his defense, but now that they're .500, his defense is a problem they can't stop talking about."

Even more agents ripping the Suns...yay! This should really help fix our image and lure FAs to Phoenix.

Seriously though, that last part is right. If the Suns had a problem with Green, why the hell didn't they trade him? Especially if they actually got offers for him in which teams were willing to part with good assets.

Did they think 3 months of Green (because its pretty damn obvious that his agent won't let Green resign here) is worth not trading him?

Seriously, does this team have a clue of what their doing?

 

[Mainstreet]

That's what Kerr wanted DAntoni to do and he bolted. GS is what SSOL could have been.

These are my thoughts.

 

[JustWinBaby]

That's what Kerr wanted DAntoni to do and he bolted. GS is what SSOL could have been.

Just to keep it real.

Kerr stepped into a pretty good defensive team when he took over the head coaching job in Golden State as well as a young loaded roster.

Iguodala, Bogut, Green and Thompson were excellent defenders when Kerr got there and that part of their game was because of Mark Jackson.

D'Antoni had two defenders Marion and Raja Trying to guard the other teams five. Kerr should have got him another couple of defenders from his GM's chair rather than playing coach and we might have won a ring in Phoenix.

What GS lacked was consistent offense. Enter assistant coach Alvin Gentry who sat on the bench as an assistant coach during SSOL and D'Antoni.

We will see if Kerr is up to the task of beating Popovich if and when they meet in the playoffs. If he can't I think the GS GM should give him some pointers on how to coach.

Methinks he is a one trick pony that will only work during the regular season. Winning a ring is all that matters, the hell with his regular season success, who cares about watching a team winning 60 games every year.

 

[Joe Mama]

These are my thoughts.

while I agree that Mike D'Antoni could have put more emphasis on defense I disagree that would have made them the Golden State Warriors. A large part of that problem was just personnel. When Amare Stoudemire was replaced with Kurt Thomas/Boris Diaw and quite Richardson was replaced by Raja Bell they were a good defensive team. Golden State is better, but they also have better personnel overall and are much deeper. That's really what drove me crazy about Mike D'Antoni and what I think was his fatal flaw. He just refused to develop a bench. As soon as Gentry took over we had one of the better benches in the NBA.

I mean I'm sorry though. You put a healthy Andrew Bogut on most of those SSOL and we have a couple of championships. Imagine if they had just drafted Iguodala instead of out thinking themselves. If Kurt Thomas stayed healthy in 2005-06 I think there's a very good chance we would have had a championship. If Amare and/or Boris just keep their butts on the bench when Nash got the hip check we have another great chance. Those teams were not far off.

Joe

 

[slinslin]

Jeff Hornacek makes it a little easy on himself.

A few month ago when asked if "team leadership" is part of his responsibility he shrugged it off and said it is the players job.

When asked what a players role is he says "to play basketball". When it is about rotations he says "if you have a poor game you play 5 if you play well you play 20".

I don't know there are some red flags about how Hornacek handled everything this season...

 

[slinslin]

Imagine if they had just drafted Iguodala instead of out thinking themselves.

There was not even much to think about, trading a #7 pick for a future pick without any reverse-protection to at least make it a future lottery pick is just ridiculous.

To do that trade with a big name franchise like the Bulls was even worse.

That is just Bryan Colangelo for you, stupid management, trading a #7 pick for the only reason to offer Quentin Richardson 2M$ more per season.

 

[Errntknght]

There was not even much to think about, trading a #7 pick for a future pick without any reverse-protection to at least make it a future lottery pick is just ridiculous.

To do that trade with a big name franchise like the Bulls was even worse.

That is just Bryan Colangelo for you, stupid management, trading a #7 pick for the only reason to offer Quentin Richardson 2M$ more per season.

My thinking about that trade was that our FO expected Chicago to get worse the next year. If they'd been paying attention there were quite abundant signs from midseason on that the Bulls were turning it around already - and adding Deng helped the process along. To make it even worse they trotted out the silly excuse that they thought that Iggy would be off the table - as if it would have killed us if we'd been stuck with Deng.

 

[JCSunsfan]

While I don't think the problem is Hornacek, I do think there is a chance he gets fired this off-season. There has just been too much crap going on. Most housecleanings include the coach.

 

[Errntknght]

While I don't think the problem is Hornacek, I do think there is a chance he gets fired this off-season. There has just been too much crap going on. Most housecleanings include the coach.

I would like to see us fire Jeff but I haven't seen any signs of friction between he and McD so I think its quite unlikely. I think they were both on board with idea of reloading the two quasi-PG thing with Knight and Bledsoe. I quite expect them to pay what it takes to keep Brandon and charge into next season hoping for great things. They'd probably love to shed the Morri but as long as criminal charges are hanging over their heads, I don't see any market for them.

In fact, I don't see a thorough housecleaning in the works - Green is probably gone but who else among the guys that have played regularly? I expect them to pay fair market value for Wright and they'd probably take a tempting offer for PJ, but I don't expect that to eventuale. I don't think they're committed to Goodwin but what could they get for him? I think they are most committed to keeping Bled, Len and TJ. I really have no idea what their thinking is about Bullock, Thornton etc.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think Hornacek should go. I don't have any confidence in how he runs the team, his insistence on a two PG offense, player rotations or the way he communicates with players.

I would have liked to keep Gerald Green for his scoring but I doubt he wants to stay now.

Bottom line I don't think Hornacek has a handle on the team.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think they'll try to move the twins, charges or not. Markieff is on a great contract, Marcus' deal is not prohibitive. They're suspects in an assault case, even if it ever goes anywhere (which seems dubious) the league would likely slap them with a 3-5 game suspension and thats the end of it.

 

[jandaman]

I would like to see us fire Jeff but I haven't seen any signs of friction between he and McD so I think its quite unlikely. I think they were both on board with idea of reloading the two quasi-PG thing with Knight and Bledsoe. I quite expect them to pay what it takes to keep Brandon and charge into next season hoping for great things. They'd probably love to shed the Morri but as long as criminal charges are hanging over their heads, I don't see any market for them.

In fact, I don't see a thorough housecleaning in the works - Green is probably gone but who else among the guys that have played regularly? I expect them to pay fair market value for Wright and they'd probably take a tempting offer for PJ, but I don't expect that to eventuale. I don't think they're committed to Goodwin but what could they get for him? I think they are most committed to keeping Bled, Len and TJ. I really have no idea what their thinking is about Bullock, Thornton etc.

McD has come out and said Goodwin is part of the future core they want in Phoenix.

I think all the players McD has been involved with are "keepers"... the rest are trade fodder.

Bledsoe and Knight however could be an exception, McD got both... but I think they've not played long enough together to gauge whether they work or not.