Good draft for Suns

[Irish]

And it would be nice to have drafted David West rather than Zarko and Price rather than Casey, and.....

The future of the Suns after 2010 is dependent on whether some of their young prospects become players. If either Strawberry or Tucker learn to become solid three point shooters, the roster would be:

C - Lopez
PF - Stoudemire
SF - Diaw
SG - Tucker or Strawberry
PG - Dragic

Sith - Barbosa, Tucker or Strawberry

Also, when Shaq and Nash come off contract, the Suns will have only $33 million in contracts (according to Hoopshype).

 

[Mainstreet]

Sure, please give me in detail all the reasons why it is IMPOSIBLE for the Suns to get to the finals this year. Totally and absolutely impossible to win a championship.

BTW, "explain" means giving real evidence and not just gibberish about how stupid Kerr is and how Sarrver wants the team to lose in order to torment long time fans. I'm looking for real detailed analysis that says that it is IMPOSSIBLE for te Suns to get better.

You know no one can defeat this statement. Very, very slippery.

However, I can offer a simple explanation that comes as close as any. The Suns have needed a veteran PG since Nash arrived in Phoenix. Early on Nash was largely able to carry the team. However, it now appears he has slowed somewhat this past season, but more importantly the teams know how to stop him. They just constantly double team him and use physical force (bumping and hacking him) to throw him off his game. He desperately needs another true PG to rest him or play beside him in stretches. If the Suns do not address this need for a veteran backup PG (like using LB or Strawberry again as his primary backup), this is where I see the Suns stumbling.

 

[sunsallday]

And it would be nice to have drafted David West rather than Zarko and Price rather than Casey, and.....

The future of the Suns after 2010 is dependent on whether some of their young prospects become players. If either Strawberry or Tucker learn to become solid three point shooters, the roster would be:

C - Lopez
PF - Stoudemire
SF - Diaw
SG - Tucker or Strawberry
PG - Dragic

Sith - Barbosa, Tucker or Strawberry

Also, when Shaq and Nash come off contract, the Suns will have only $33 million in contracts (according to Hoopshype).

That lineup can either be a hit or miss. That lineup is fairly young, but if Stoudemire does not become a strong leader for the team, that team can have confidence issues. If its a hit, Stoudemire leads his team like Tim Duncan, that lineup could contend for many years until Stoudemire hits 35.

Heck that lineup could become the new version of Spurs. LOL

Dragic is Tony Parker, Tucker or Strawberry is Michael Finley, Boris Diaw is Bowen but softer and more cleaner, Lopez is Alberto, Stoudemire is Duncan, and Barbosa is the high scoring 6th man off the bench. LOL

It depends on how developed Tucker or Strawberry become. I think Tucker has a better chance of becoming a three point shooter than Strawberry.

 

[Irish]

How did we go from saying it is impossible for the Suns to win to criticisming the Suns for not getting a veteran pG backup?

Everybody but D'Antoni seemed to understand the problem. D'Antoni's problem was simple:

1. He's not allowed to play more than eight guys at any time in the entire season.

2. He can't play anyone incapable of playing at least two positions and preferabley three.

3. He is not allowed to created an offense that does not require Nash to run it.

4. He won't use a guy at guard if he's not a great outside shooter.

I could go on, but the secret is out. D'Anton is gone and all anaalysis based on the Suns doing everything the same way should be gone too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So in other words I'm supposed to take your "scouting" as gospel while ignoring what others say about him. Whatever....

Can I be optimistic for half a second without you slamming me?

i've watched a ton of pac 10 hoops. he's not athletic. anyone else feel the same?

 

[nowagimp]

How did we go from saying it is impossible for the Suns to win to criticisming the Suns for not getting a veteran pG backup?

Everybody but D'Antoni seemed to understand the problem. D'Antoni's problem was simple:

3. He is not allowed to created an offense that does not require Duncan or manu to run it.

4. He won't use a guy at guard if he's not a great outside shooter.

I could go on, but the secret is out. D'Anton is gone and all anaalysis based on the Suns doing everything the same way should be gone too.

Rules 3,4 are popovich rules as well. Lets see, barry ginobilli, finley, bowen, matt bonner are all shooters that(except manu) cant create much for themselves.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

^This is exactly right. The Suns draft is bad if they didn't get who they wanted. If they didn't get who the FANS wanted, that's the fans' problem.

no, the suns draft is bad if they don't acquire talent and the team sucks. THAT'S the ONLY definition of "bad draft" that ultimately matters. some of us watch a lot of college hoops and think, from our own observations, that the pick was a bad one. many others on this thread don't watch a lot of college hoops, but call us "critics" idiots for our opinions. who cares if the suns get who they want if they suck? what would you say if the suns wanted to sign tractor trailer as a free agent? would you say, "i saw him fail and i think he stinks" or would you say, "the suns must see something in him that no one else sees!"

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Kerr is still kinda new with his job so I'll just stay neutral on him for now. He hasnt left his mark yet to be called out so harshly.

can someone explain this concept to me? i always thought a good biz trained people to move into business so that they don't screw up b/c they're "kinda new with his job." i mean, if i screwed up my job in a way that could impact the company for years (and essentially that's what a blown draft pick becomes - a failure that haunts the biz for years), i'm pretty sure no one is gonna say, "hey, he's new, let's stay neutral on him for now."

people said the same thing about graves. he was new. well for god's sake, they've been associated with the industry for years, right? they're being hired for their EXPERTISE, right? so why do they get to screw up for a while before people start holding them accountable? i don't get it.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So let me get this straight, you hate the Suns front office for wanting to remain competitive and in the same breath turn around and start saying that Robin is the starting center of the future? Are you kidding me? NOBODY, not even the Suns front office, has touted that. This is a trait of all you negatives on this board--to make baseless claims in order to back up your negativity.

i think you have to work under the premise that the suns see lopez as the starting center of the future, otherwise why would they spend their highest draft pick in years on him. what other assumption can you make there?

 

[Chaplin]

i think you have to work under the premise that the suns see lopez as the starting center of the future, otherwise why would they spend their highest draft pick in years on him. what other assumption can you make there?

You can go ahead and assume that. No problem there, but he isn't the center of the future at #15. There was nobody there that could have been the "center of the future" unless he was a project. And we all know that the Suns don't want to draft a project right now.

 

[Irish]

You can go ahead and assume that. No problem there, but he isn't the center of the future at #15. There was nobody there that could have been the "center of the future" unless he was a project. And we all know that the Suns don't want to draft a project right now.

Even if all Lopez did was become a career 25 minute a game defensive specialist, it's still a better decision than taking an O'Bryant or Sene. None the less, getting a Tyson Chandler type player is not a bad choice when you have a Stoudemire next to him. (Look how much difference playing with David West did for Chandler).

 

[Cheesewater]

no, the suns draft is bad if they don't acquire talent and the team sucks. THAT'S the ONLY definition of "bad draft" that ultimately matters. some of us watch a lot of college hoops and think, from our own observations, that the pick was a bad one. many others on this thread don't watch a lot of college hoops, but call us "critics" idiots for our opinions. who cares if the suns get who they want if they suck? what would you say if the suns wanted to sign tractor trailer as a free agent? would you say, "i saw him fail and i think he stinks" or would you say, "the suns must see something in him that no one else sees!"

If you are expecting the #15 and the #45 to keep the team from sucking, you are putting WAY too much value on the college draft. Even then, if one of your criteria for grading the draft is whether or not the team sucks, you kind of have to wait to see if they suck first, don't you?

You may watch "a lot of college hoops" but that still isn't enough to elevate your opinion over that of the people whose job it is to draft players particularly when you take into account all the other factors in play. Factors like: Who's available at #15? Who can fit in the scheme at #15? Who will accept what we can give to move up to #10? If you say "Lopez sucks, don't draft him. Draft a good player" you need to take into account all the variables in play. It seems that some expect the Suns management to be geniuses but all the other teams' management to be idiots. It takes a pretty big team of minds and experience to put a plan together. Much more than one critic has at his/her disposal.

You are free to judge the Suns draft as good or bad as you see it. Just don't expect people to be moved by your opinion.

 

[Cheesewater]

can someone explain this concept to me? i always thought a good biz trained people to move into business so that they don't screw up b/c they're "kinda new with his job." i mean, if i screwed up my job in a way that could impact the company for years (and essentially that's what a blown draft pick becomes - a failure that haunts the biz for years), i'm pretty sure no one is gonna say, "hey, he's new, let's stay neutral on him for now."

people said the same thing about graves. he was new. well for god's sake, they've been associated with the industry for years, right? they're being hired for their EXPERTISE, right? so why do they get to screw up for a while before people start holding them accountable? i don't get it.

At some point, everyone is new at their job. Are you suggesting no one should ever be hired to do a job they've never done before? So, yes, some consideration should be given to the person who is new to the tasks involved. The leeway given is obviously related to the amount of risk. You just see Kerr's mistakes as bigger than his employers do. Plus, people who screw up should be given the chance to fix it. Perhaps Kerr has done things to HELP the Suns in a way that effects the team in a POSITIVE way for years. Are you taking those things into account before you vilify him? Or are you just going to weigh the couple of things YOU perceive as catastrophic failures?

 

[Irish]

I watch a lot of the tournament and lesss during the season. In any case, I don't see much evidence that Lopez will "suck". He probably won't be an All Star, but suck means out of the league in 4 years. Now before you decide to redfine the defeninitio of such so that id doesn't actually mean "suck", lets just get over this character flaw of yours of saying things you don't really mean.

The problem with #15 is simple. You draft who is avaiable and who fits your team. If the Suns passed on this buggind superstar, then make the case for Koufos, Spreight, McGee and all the other lsoft, lazy guys available after #15. I did not see these guys, but when a lot of people describe a guy as soft and lazy; I am inclined to believe them.

So exactly who is this great player the Suns should have taken?

 

[shazaam6]

If lopez is as good a defender as the suns brass seem to think, this is a good move. Here is why


rebuilding

Its not time to rebuild, suns dont have good picks coming up the next few years, one pick will not rebuild. Summer 2010, when big contracts expire is the time to rebuild, should be plenty of cap room to add some stars.


lopez value:

IF lopez is a quality defender and can play 15-18 mins, it will keep the '5' physical load OFF amares knees, and he will be able to wreak havoc at the '4' full time without getting beat up at the '5'. This should also help Diaw, by limiting his minutes defending stronger players, especially big post players that he usually draws when he plays alongside amare. Diaw will produce better if he defends guys more his size as the fatigue of defending a much bigger guy on the low block can be a real problem for a marion, or Diaw, or anyone. People who think Diaw dogged it dont realize that he ALWAYS had a tougher more physical defensive assignment than amare or perhaps any sun. This was because his versatility encouraged DA to misuse him at the '5'. Diaw was flat out a better on ball defender in the low block than skinner or amare, so he was abused and worn down by DA grappling with much bigger players in the post. He gets another chance in my book to show his value, now he can be the help defender on the '5', post up some 3's, 2's.

IF lopez can play the pick and roll and shoot foul shots, it will change the suns interior defense, and they can get stops to control momentum better in games. Amare wont be as easy to target defensively, and Diaw can be used more on the perimeter, matchups permitting.

With shaq and a 7' 255 lb backup, the suns will be able to be plenty physical, and shaq can be used more sparingly to keep him healthy for the playoffs. If lopez can catch a lob and dunk, he'll see those kinds of plays right off, and between nash, hill, and diaw, the suns have some guys who can get the ball to him where he needs it.

New backup PG:

This move is part rebuild/part now. IF this kid comes over this year, it would be very good for him to learn as fast as possible what nash knows. Its takes a few years to develop a PG, this is a great move if he comes over this year, and very good one for next. IF he doesnt come over this year, the suns have to get a backup, no more Leo at PG.


I, at first didnt like the lopez pick, and still I would like to wait and see what he brings before procaliming it a "great" pick. I like that they went out and dealt for a young PG, perhaps the PG of the future. Now they must get another perimeter shooter to keep the lane open for amare and Nash to operate. IF they do that and Lopez is productive, it will be a very good draft. But I wont call this a great draft until they get the PG over here, lopez shows he has it, and they sign that wing FA they need. If they cover those 3 bases, the suns have a shot to win a championship.

Well said.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

You can go ahead and assume that. No problem there, but he isn't the center of the future at #15. There was nobody there that could have been the "center of the future" unless he was a project. And we all know that the Suns don't want to draft a project right now.

right, so lopez isn't a project. i think by definition that means that to a certain extent, you know what you're getting. that means his floor and ceiling are at least partially defined. which to me, translates into higher floor and lower ceiling. i would like the potential homerun with this high a pick to the potential journeyman career-backup. colangelo would have sided with me on this as well - majerle was seen as a potential homerun, and so was nash (imo). they passed on the career backups like john wallace.

but you said, and we all know, that the suns don't want a project "right now." why is that? because they want a contributor for what they (and some of the rest of you) still believe is a contender. but how many rookies are big-time contributors on a contender? very few. doesn't that make gambling future potential on present ability to contribute somewhat silly?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Even if all Lopez did was become a career 25 minute a game defensive specialist, it's still a better decision than taking an O'Bryant or Sene. None the less, getting a Tyson Chandler type player is not a bad choice when you have a Stoudemire next to him. (Look how much difference playing with David West did for Chandler).

that's true, but what if you got that 25 min a game defensive specialist at the cost of passing up on a john stockton or steve nash? it's not the better decision then, is it? you can compare lopez to drafting a "project" that didn't pan out, but you can also compare drafting lopez to passing on a "project" that being better than advertised.

 

[Mulli]

that's true, but what if you got that 25 min a game defensive specialist at the cost of passing up on a john stockton or steve nash? it's not the better decision then, is it? you can compare lopez to drafting a "project" that didn't pan out, but you can also compare drafting lopez to passing on a "project" that being better than advertised.

Did you post who that potential stockon or nash is?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If you are expecting the #15 and the #45 to keep the team from sucking, you are putting WAY too much value on the college draft. Even then, if one of your criteria for grading the draft is whether or not the team sucks, you kind of have to wait to see if they suck first, don't you?

You may watch "a lot of college hoops" but that still isn't enough to elevate your opinion over that of the people whose job it is to draft players particularly when you take into account all the other factors in play. Factors like: Who's available at #15? Who can fit in the scheme at #15? Who will accept what we can give to move up to #10? If you say "Lopez sucks, don't draft him. Draft a good player" you need to take into account all the variables in play. It seems that some expect the Suns management to be geniuses but all the other teams' management to be idiots. It takes a pretty big team of minds and experience to put a plan together. Much more than one critic has at his/her disposal.

You are free to judge the Suns draft as good or bad as you see it. Just don't expect people to be moved by your opinion.

first, you're basically telling me to shut up and not have an opinion b/c professionals make decisions. that's silly. i have eyes and a mind, i can watch players and form an opinion for myself. i'm even allowed to share it - SHOCKER OF SHOCKERS - on a sports forum!

i'm just having a discussion. i could care less if i sway anyone. i do care that people jump on those of us that are critical of a move made by our front office immediately upon stating an observation or opinion.

some of you believe that b/c you agree with everything the suns say that you have the weight of authority behind your statement, that's as false as my thinking my opinion may sway anyone. you know, maybe you should take your own advice . . . you are free to judge the suns draft as good or bad as you see it. just don't expect people to be moved by your opinion.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

At some point, everyone is new at their job. Are you suggesting no one should ever be hired to do a job they've never done before? So, yes, some consideration should be given to the person who is new to the tasks involved. The leeway given is obviously related to the amount of risk. You just see Kerr's mistakes as bigger than his employers do. Plus, people who screw up should be given the chance to fix it. Perhaps Kerr has done things to HELP the Suns in a way that effects the team in a POSITIVE way for years. Are you taking those things into account before you vilify him? Or are you just going to weigh the couple of things YOU perceive as catastrophic failures?

the higher up your position, the fewer mistakes are allowed and the less costly the mistakes have to be to the organization. kerr is already over a year into his job at the highest level in the organization. his mistakes, especially if they are continued mistakes, could devastate the organization. you don't give THAT guy a lot of leeway.

and i take everything into account before i "villify" him. contrary to what you might think, i am hopeful he ends up being brilliant. i WANT him to succeeed. hell, i hope i am WRONG about lopez (but don't think i'll be proven so). but thus far, the evidence is heavily weighted against steve.

 

[sunsallday]

The problem with the draft is not being able to predict the future. All players from the lottery ones to the second rounders are picked based on potential. Just because you were picked #1, doesn't mean you are the best player in the draft. There have been plenty lottery pick busts and draft steals. That is what makes the draft exciting because anybody can be anything. Gilbert Arenas, a second round 31st pick, is one of the most talented offensive PGs in the game. Nobody expected him to be in the top 5 in scoring.

Kwame Brown, a #1 lottery pick. Guess what, a bust.
Michael Olowakandi, a #1 lottery pick, a bust
Darko Milicic. a #1 first round pick, a complete bust

The list goes on.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I watch a lot of the tournament and lesss during the season. In any case, I don't see much evidence that Lopez will "suck". He probably won't be an All Star, but suck means out of the league in 4 years. Now before you decide to redfine the defeninitio of such so that id doesn't actually mean "suck", lets just get over this character flaw of yours of saying things you don't really mean.

The problem with #15 is simple. You draft who is avaiable and who fits your team. If the Suns passed on this buggind superstar, then make the case for Koufos, Spreight, McGee and all the other lsoft, lazy guys available after #15. I did not see these guys, but when a lot of people describe a guy as soft and lazy; I am inclined to believe them.

So exactly who is this great player the Suns should have taken?

first, i think speights has more skill and upside. i also preferred darrell arthur for his athletic upside.

but that aside, i would have liked to see the suns turn the pick into either a higher selection, or some combo of the pick and barbs/diaw into a young vet. and yes, i recognize that those moves require "two to tango" and that we don't know all the background variables with which Steve would have deal and negotiate. but what i do know is, a great gm figures out how to get those things done. a great gm who comes out and states that they'd like to trade up, acquire another first round choice, or trade up to the top of the second round actually eventually accomplish those goals. we've heard this talk from kerr more than once without results. and again, i ACKNOWLEDGE that there are other factors, but the great gm's overcome those other factors, they don't bow to them again and again and sell our pick or just stay put and take the guy that no one else wanted that fell to them.

i'm sorry if i want a great gm. maybe i'm asking too much for the ranking official of an organization that has been largely considered one of the premier franchises for a long time. i have high expectations, sue me.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Did you post who that potential stockon or nash is?

batum could be that guy. courtney lee could be. i admit that most had their warts at this point in the draft, but that's why i think you draft for upside rather than settle for "okay."

 

[Mulli]

batum could be that guy. courtney lee could be. i admit that most had their warts at this point in the draft, but that's why i think you draft for upside rather than settle for "okay."

fair enough.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The problem with the draft is not being able to predict the future. All players from the lottery ones to the second rounders are picked based on potential. Just because you were picked #1, doesn't mean you are the best player in the draft. There have been plenty lottery pick busts and draft steals. That is what makes the draft exciting because anybody can be anything. Gilbert Arenas, a second round 31st pick, is one of the most talented offensive PGs in the game. Nobody expected him to be in the top 5 in scoring.

Kwame Brown, a #1 lottery pick. Guess what, a bust.
Michael Olowakandi, a #1 lottery pick, a bust
Darko Milicic. a #1 first round pick, a complete bust

The list goes on.

just b/c there are busts doesn't mean that as a gm you aren't held to a level of expertise to avoid the busts. that's why those guys are paid.

actually, i'm not even sure what message your post is supposed to convey.